Freezing and Temperature Feats Continued

[KLOL506]

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino, DMUA, Bambu, prolly DragonMaster, prolly Matt

Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep, Damage, Anton, Ricsi, Wok

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Currently I'm more on DontTalk's side here.

Also, Matt did say this; which implies he's leaning towards agreeing with Yay. Probably in the same boat as DragonMaster however.

 

[Jaakubb]

Dargoo made some good points though. How would those saying yea (that's how it's spelled, it barely matters but whatever) respond to those?

 

[KLOL506]

bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Still working on the collapse details for what a typical scaling chain looks like based on the view points of each end.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also, Matt did say this; which implies he's leaning towards agreeing with Yay. Probably in the same boat as DragonMaster however.

I'd perfer confirmation from Matt himself; he seems unsure offsite from my talk with him. I'll take your word on DragonMaster, although I would perfer to have him post on this thread too.

Dargoo made some good points though. How would those saying yea (that's how it's spelled, it barely matters but whatever) respond to those?

To be entirely honest, I feel like the talking points have been done to death and back; and considering I've contacted much of our staff and calc member base already, we might be looking at a dead even or slightly off vote.

 

[Jaakubb]

I thought everyone agreed on freezing feats. They can be listed as AP but are differentiated from AP values that are actually applicable (because freezing feats dont scale to anything).

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That was fully accepted, I'm talking about the discussion with DontTalk.

 

[Jaakubb]

Wouldnt storm feats not be combat applicable by extension? Unless otherwise stated or implied, storms are simply chain reactions caused by cooling.

 

[KLOL506]

Maybe not but it'd still be something. Same reason energy yields for suicide attacks are also used.

 

[Jaakubb]

What reason? Terminator's normal attacks do not scale to his self destruct sequence. Not even close.

 

[KLOL506]

Not what I meant tho. I meant that suicide attacks are still part of AP even if it doesn't scale to normal dura or striking strength. Not combat applicable, but it's there nonetheless since we're an indexing site first, debating site second. Just like how Environmental Destruction is a thing (Although that'd be combat applicable if it doesn't kill).

 

[Jaakubb]

I said earlier that "They can be listed as AP". So I am in no way supporting throwing away freezing feats entirely, or at least not anymore. Thing is, lots of verses such as dark souls scale their combat applicable AP values to storm feats specifically.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Jaakubb Freezing feats were agreed to be treated the same way heating feats are given that Kaltias, Triforce, and Xulrev's input. The thing we're discussing now is heating feats Vs Blunt Force Trauma feats. Which it's also agreed blunt force durability and temperature resistance are two different things, but the current discussion with a vote debate is using universal energy sources to scale the feats interchangeably.

@Dargoo, if you scroll up, Matt said this. Currently I'm more on DontTalk's side here.

I have a Letter.txt that's more than half done, but still being worked on for explanations.

 

[Jaakubb]

Alright so do we continue freezing after the vote finishes? I'm pretty sure kaltias triforce and xulrev havent posted here since the first quarter of the thread.

I'm fine with listing freezing feats as AP so we can focus on just one thing (whether or not cooling can be combat applicable) after this vote is done.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I believe we have already agreed on separating force and heat feats.

 

[Agnaa]

I believe we have already agreed on separating force and heat feats.

We've agreed on separating them, but we haven't agreed on whether heat feats should scale to force AP if there's a shared energy source between the two.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I'd like to suggest that maybe making the energy unified in terms of direction (like a punch) uses up some of that energy, making it "weaker" compared to letting it run freely (heating something up).

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'd like to suggest that maybe making the energy unified in terms of direction (like a punch) uses up some of that energy, making it "weaker" compared to letting it run freely (heating something up).

That just sounds like specific inverse mechanics that you can't just force on without a reason.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Just a thought.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, I created an example scaling chair verse and put the suggestions based on both sides of the poll. Read the first collapse text carefully and the 2nd one is a typical example of what the scaling chain looks like for those who support Yay. And the 3rd is the example for those who support Nay. Also, the foot note of the first collapsed segment was more so made for fun, but also classifies that I know what outliers and PIS is. But it's the progression that counts.

Respect paragraph/Power scaling chain for a typical verse

So this isn't any sort of real verse, but let's say I decided to make a fanfiction like verse that's RPG and/or Shounen Manga style. Or it has canon media containing both. It has a seemingly medieval fantasy like setting, but certain modern weapons exist such as explosives. But the most prominent thing is that it has a level up system like most RPGs and they also got have this thing where their power level is based on how much "Fighting Spirit" they have based on the lore. Fighting Spirit has a combination of spiritual and magical properties, but characters also used them to enhance physical strength, durability, and speed. They're also often used for magic barriers and stuff. But even non magic users still have great levels and often comparable levels to that of magic users. The games if any also have SP (Stands for Spirit Points) as an ammunition statistic for their special attacks. They're using used for status effecting hax, healing, and teleportation but those game mechanics shouldn't be used for scaling purposes. But now down to the feats and the respect scaling. The first feat done by level 1 characters is fighting various large monsters. One of the mooks has canonically withstood a point blank explosion with the durability feat calculated at slightly above 500 kg, since explosions are a combination of heat at force, so it's a solid tier feat. This is 8-C which would scale to fodder characters for sure. After the party progressed a bit in their journey, at least one of the mages learns an Ice Berg spell that was calculated at 8-B. The Ice Mage is equal in power to the Fire Mage, and both of them can regularly trade blows along side the party's sword wielding Warriors and Hand to Hand combat Monks regardless of whether physical or magical attacks are being used. So that's 8-B temperature manipulation and resistance, but whether it scales to physical durability is up to debate. And at this point, everyone completely fodderizes stomps the various 8-C mooks. With even further progressions, they part comes across a fire golem like enemy. This guy has a lava spell capable of melting giant rocks. Which was calculated at 8-A based on how much stone they were able to melt in a single second. The party was able to defeat this enemy and trade blows. So this enemy has 8-A heat manipulation, and the party would have to have 8-A levels of heat resistance to tank their precision fireballs that can also explode. The Fire Golem can also attack with melee. Also, the part is invulnerable to the 8-B and below foes at this point; both physical and magical/temperature attacks. With yet even more progressions, they meet a casual "Hill Buster". It's a giant that shatters a hill, which was calculated at around 15 Kilotons. This giant is invulnerable to everything that came before both physically and magically, until the protagonists grew strong enough to trade blows with this behemoth. So this giant is Town level and is overwhelmingly greater than everything they fought before them, this includes Multi-City Block level and below attacks heat, electric, melee, all having no effect. Upon further progression, a Thunder God is introduced. Thunder God performs a Low 7-B feat. Said Thunder God becomes a new formidable foe that's mightier than all previous enemies. It's a storm feat, typically pass as environmental destruction, but this god is an embodiment of the storm they create. The same Thunder God is also physically much stronger than the previous giant who would take 0 damage from the party that was even with said giant. A new foe has an attack that nukes the battle field. The nuclear explosion was calculated at 7-A which to protagonists can calculated at point blank range. Explosions are impressive heat and force wise, so this easily scales as a 7-A feat at this point in time. And no need to mention how much the protagonists have progressed. With even more progression, an Ice Mage was now able to freeze an entire lake. This was calculated at 6-C. The Fire Mage should logically be equally capable of unfreezing the same lake due to being equal to the Ice Mage. And the warrior is also still able to trade blows with the same strongest enemies and the same protagonists can trade blows with each other with each other. The 7-A nuke is nothing to any of them at this point in time. Even more progressions, and the Wind Mage was able to blow way massive amounts of clouds with a Hurricane. The kinetic energy was calculated at 6-B which the same Wind Mage can harness their same magic into a single attack to cut their enemies. Wind is physical, and thus would scale to physical durability. The Fire and Ice Mages can still trade blows with the Wind Mage and same with the Warrior. Reaching near the end of the series chronologically, the 12 Legendary Weapons where introduced, they are by lore implied to have equal power, but when it comes to individual feats, there are two that stand out. There is Durandel, the Blazing Sword of Fire, and Malte, the Frozen Lance of Blizzards. The wielders of said two weapons were able to affect the planet's atmosphere. A single strike from the Malte was able to cause an Ice age, similar to the level seen in this blog. And Durandel was able to cause Global warming and return the Earth to its original stage. Legendary Weapons all have mystic powers that also enhance the wielder, and only those with great power can wield them. As the weapons possess great powers that destroy the wielders if they're not strong enough to handle them. Upon growing much stronger than their 6-B selves, they can now use these weapons just fine. Finally, the God Tier enemy of the verse is capable of creating a pocket reality with an Earth to Sun distance. Said character can also invoke the star to go Supernova and warp the pocket reality, and has trapped the protagonists within. The Protagonists can not only trade blows with the Final Antagonist, but the only way out would be to destroy the final enemy and thus destroy the pocket reality. Supernovas are High 4-C which is impressive both heat and force wise. So this is a clear cut High 4-C feat. And that wraps up to power scaling chain progressions. Note: This does NOT include that gag Galaxy level feat that happened early on done by a underdog Jester character; that's an outlier. And it also excludes PIS such as a game mechanic of characters loosing health when the step in lava in the games, or fodder/mook enemies chip damaging the protagonists. It also excludes casual low end feats such as a Wind God who also has a 8-A calculated Tornado feat done on screen. But the protagonists were well past 7-C physically, and the Wind God was lore wise equal to the Low 7-B Thunder God who has his storm feat.

Those who are the Yay's power scaling chain conclusions
* Bottom Tiers characters are 8-C Low Tier characters are 8-B Mid-Low Tier characters are 8-A Low-Mid Tier characters are 7-C Mid Tier characters are Low 7-B High-Mid Tier characters are 7-A Mid-High Tier characters are 6-C High tier characters are6-B Top Tiers are High 6-A God Tiers are High 4-C

Those who are in Nay's power scaling chain's conclusions

* Bottom Tiers characters are 8-C Low Tier characters are at least 8-C physically with 8-B levels of Temperature manipulation/resistance Mid-Low Tier characters are at least 8-C physically with 8-Alevels of Temperature manipulation/resistance Low-Mid Tier characters are 7-C physically with at least 8-A levels of Temperature manipulation/resistance Mid Tier characters are at least 7-C physically with Low 7-B levels of Tempurature manipulation/resistance High-Mid Tier characters are 7-A Mid-High Tier characters are at least 7-A physically with 6-C levels of Temperature manipulation/resistance High tier characters are 6-B physically with at least 6-C levels of Temperature manipulation/resistance Top Tiers are at least 6-B physically with High 6-A levels of Temperature manipulation/resistance God Tiers are High 4-C

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

The second option makes sense to me.

 

[KLOL506]

So this is just for heat feats, right? Those feats don't involve the fire feat pushing back a character like a punch would now, do they (Like say, a solid fireball)? If they do push the character back, it should apply in full.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If they do push the character back, it should apply in full.

Like I've said many times here, attacks can have elements of heat and force in different proportions. An explosion in real life will push objects back with a shockwave, however it will not do so with the same energy as the heat energy that it releases, possibly with the exception of an explosion contained in a small space like a bomb calorimeter.

It's the same reason we wouldn't say a "lightning punch" that shattered a wall also gave off an electrical shock in watts 1-to-1 to the joules/s needed to break the wall with force in that given time. There's no correlation in real life we can draw from.

if you scroll up, Matt said this. Currently I'm more on DontTalk's side here.

I'm already aware of that. I'm saying I asked Matt to elaborate on this off-site and he said he was unsure.

I don't like posting scans of DMs, which is why I'd like Matt to elaborate himself here if he's available.

 

[Jaakubb]

Bump. Or is there no point in debating at this point?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I actually have found some more information to support DontTalk's side, but will bring it up later. But the main topic now is basically staff poll. But basically the laws of Thermodynamics refers to all energy in the universe not just thermal energy and will get into details later.

 

[Agnaa]

Even if there's no point in debating, it still needs to be applied.

Also, I know that I, at least, will need to ask a lot of questions to be able to apply this to all verses that I work on, so we may need another thread for that.

 

[Jaakubb]

Alright also what about the mountain thread

What do you mean by "applied" agnaa?

 

[Agnaa]

Separating heat AP and dura from force AP and dura on profiles.

 

[Jaakubb]

We cant apply it if no one has come to a consensus.

 

[Agnaa]

We have come to the consensus on what I'm talking about

We've agreed on separating them, but we haven't agreed on whether heat feats should scale to force AP if there's a shared energy source between the two.

None of my verses have shared energy sources, so that doesn't matter for me when it's applied.

 

[Jaakubb]

Oh oops forgot about that. Thread's kinda long.

 

[Jaakubb]

Is the conversation about shared energy sources going anywhere?

 

[KLOL506]

Sadly, no. DT seems to actually be considerably busier than what we thought out, as he apparently has a paper to do and might be unavailable for much longer I'm afraid.

DDM was supposed to bring up the info to support DT's conclusion with the law of thermodynamics and all (Which will prolly negate the need for requiring shared energy sources for heat feats to scale to force) but it seems he's busy ATM too.

 

[KLOL506]

Also I disagree with Dargoo for what DDM has stated. If the fire-blast is shown to push things around like a punch, it absolutely should scale to the character's dura as a whole. Lightning and fire wouldn't even matter if the pushing back is tangible or can be grabbed, like in most of fiction, as the physical force would take priority over the temperature change (and the electricity is prolly just an after-effect).

 

[Jaakubb]

Do we scale things for chars simply getting pushed back? If this is too off topic I could message you.

 

[KLOL506]

That alone isn't enough IMHO and from what I've seen (I think the site uses more reasons than just force), but I think DDM can explain this much better so I'd suggest messaging him instead.

I just pointed out one of the reasons it would scale where temperature wouldn't even play a factor.

 

[Agnaa]

The issue with scaling characters to fire blasts that push things around, is that the force energy isn't the same as the heat energy. They don't tank the full amount of either, so we can't scale them to the full amount of either.

 

[KLOL506]

Only one problem, that would apply only if the character was some distance from it and didn't take it to the face head-on.

 

[Agnaa]

That's not what I mean. I mean that the fire values and the force values are just different. An explosion doesn't output equal joule values of heat and force energy, so even if you tank the entirety of it, you won't scale to all of the joules on both heat and force.