Freezing and Temperature Feats Continued

[Damage3245]

I haven't been following the entire thread, and at this point it's rather huge. So could I check if there is a summary on the main argument of why the exception "heat-based and force-based attacks have the same power source they can scale" should be accepted?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

In general, they shouldn't. Heat is only force on the quantum level, and that level of innate precision needs showing.

 

[Jaakubb]

@Damage3245 This doesnt have anything to do with your specific question, but what's your opinion on cooling feats specifically? I'm not the only one who thinks they dont scale to other stats btw.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I haven't been following the entire thread, and at this point it's rather huge. So could I check if there is a summary on the main argument of why the exception "heat-based and force-based attacks have the same power source they can scale" should be accepted?

I believe the general rule that heat and force cannot be scaled has already been accepted. The current debate and the thing we're voting on is whether or not that when the heat-based and force-based attack shared a power source (Chakara, Ki, Magic) it is an exception to this rule and we can scale them. An example would be a Ki blast that blew up part of a mountain, and us reasoning they can use the same 'energy' when they use Ki to say, heat up a cup of tea.

I beleive that scaling throgh a power system presents the same exact issues as scaling without one - heat and force are operate fundamentally different regardless of power source, and we already do not scale fundamentally different forces through shared power systems. If the mystical energy has the same properties as regular energy then the same reasons for not scaling established already apply, and if it doesn't have properties of regular energy then we don't really have a reasnonable metric by which to scale them as what takes more IRL energy might take less fictional mana.

Andy and most of the people supporting my argument aren't as hard-line as me and believe that it's just that the power system can't be the only justification for scaling, and that additional information like statements of power are needed, which I think is acceptible.

DontTalk and DDM are arguing that we as a site already merge together various fundamentally different power sources such as electricity, gravity, etc, through shared power sources, and heat is no different. They (or at least DontTalk) believes that removing the 'shared power system' justification for scaling will create oppertunities for making an overabundance of minor AP classifications, although I'll note that it seemed DontTalk mistook that I was saying that heat-based attacks can't scale to other heat-based attacks when I only had issues with force-based attack and heat-based attacks scaling to one another.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dargoo; I see. I believe that having additional information such as supporting statements is a reasonable requirement to have in order to scale them.

 

[Ugarik]

Has durability from heat been concluded?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yes. We have agreed that it certainly applies for durability, but it doesn't necessarily scale to one's blunt force durability. Granted as you can see above there's still a decision on if it can scale to blunt force when someone uses the same power source.

I believe the votes are now:

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino, DMUA

Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep, Damage

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yay, by the way.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Darnst.

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino, DMUA, Bambu

Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep, Damage

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe if stuff hasn't changed too much I'll go for the Dragoo's idea, so, a Nay I guess?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino, DMUA, Bambu

Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep, Damage, Anton

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'd say Nay myself.

 

[KLOL506]

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino, DMUA, Bambu

Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep, Damage, Anton, Ricsi

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DragonMasterxyz also appears to agree with DontTalk iirc, but I could ask him just in case.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

This CRT seems to only count staff as valuable input but in any case I'd be Yay.

 

[SuperAPM]

If we're also counting non-staff input then I vote Nay

 

[RatherClueless]

This thread is specifically staff only >.>

 

[Ugarik]

Okay I agree that heat shouldn't scake to AP by default in a similar way as storm feats but that's entirely because I think heat resistance shouldn't apply to durability period. (do not count it as a vote)

Mecanichal damage is intirely different from thermal so I want to see the agrument agains it (I couldn't follow the entire thread so I can't find those comments now)

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah, your atoms being pushed by kinetic energy and your atoms starting to shake so hard that they come apart are two very different things.

 

[Spinoirr]

Unless the attack is like a beam that can slice things like a 1000 degree knife and has force to it (as it is a energy attack)

If a character is shown no heat resistance and the opposite, they live the Lazer pushing at them they should scale in AP to the Lazer. As the character is living the force of it. Even when they shown to be affected by heat

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I don't know what you wish to say but I don't think "live" is the verb for it.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Spi Do you mean "survive"?

 

[DMUA]

Okay I agree that heat shouldn't scake to AP by default in a similar way as storm feats but that's entirely because I think heat resistance shouldn't apply to durability period. (do not count it as a vote)

Mecanichal damage is intirely different from thermal so I want to see the agrument agains it (I couldn't follow the entire thread so I can't find those comments now)

It's on another thread

Don't talk mentioned that, yes, our durability is greatly simplified, but if we were to try splitting them up we'd get like 20 different types of durability, some of which only engineers would really even know about, and all of which fiction rarely distinguishes from just taking blunt force (unless the character has a particular weakness or resistance to one or the other)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Ugarik, what the votes are doing at the moment is basically this. If a character uses Ki or Magic or insert universal power source that everything in the verse comes from to perform their various heat/cold attacks, and the same characters use that exact same power source to enhance their striking strength and durability, as well as those same characters consistently trading blows with other Ki/magic users who are officially the same power level, should we scale their thermal energy manipulation to their general Tiers. If yes, then you'll be up as Yay. If you think the linear power level system and/or use of Ki or Magic is not enough to make temperature manipulation/resistance the same tier as physical stats, then your name would be placed as Nay.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

In my case, I'd be nay, with exceptions being exceptions.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If you think the linear power level system and/or use of Ki or Magic is not enough to make temperature manipulation/resistance the same tier as physical stats, then your name would be placed as Nay.

To add on to this simplified explaination, Andy and most others supporting my position have added on that it's just that the use of Ki or Magic is not enough in of itself for scaling - naturally if there's stuff like direct statements that support scaling them in that case some exceptions can be made. I don't personally like it, however I perfer that over scaling everything together the moment a supernatural element is introduced.

To comment on DMUA's post, DontTalk's argument is a gross exaggeration of this proposal. Less than half of half of our profiles utilize heat based attacks in some way, and I doubt the majority of our pages would have heat resistance and also have the heat resistance be outside the tier they are already in, especially in higher tiers. Not to mention this doesn't even apply to most Tier 2 characters and higher. Not to mention that this only makes one distinction - the idea that we'd need to make "20" distinctions for "every profile" is just silly. Not to mention that heat and force/work is the first and most fundamental distinction of energy transfer in all of thermodynamics.

 

[Jaakubb]

I think a lot of tier 6s would have sub tier6 heat resistance. Or am I understanding wrong?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think a lot of tier 6s would have sub tier6 heat resistance. Or am I understanding wrong?

I mean, most of the feats that get characters into Tier 6 involve a large amount of heat (meteor impacts, for example), I doubt it would be anything far below whatever tier they're in unless they have that rating purely off of scaling and nothing else.

 

[Agnaa]

Meteor impacts would never have humans getting tier 6 heat dura from them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Even surviving inside the Sun's core is only 8-A levels of heat resistance; Tier 6 levels of heat resistance would be like Quadrillions to Quintillions of degrees on the celcius scale if using the volume of a human body was used.

 

[Antoniofer]

8-A is sun's surface iirc, the core is tier 6 (if hasn't changed); one can, however, interprete surviving in the sun's core to be Heat Resistance + Pressure Resistance (Notice that just cuz someone is adapted to survive in elevated pressures doesn't mean is more durable, look at real life fishes from the depth for example).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Sun's surface is only 8-C using the body of a human; it's Tier 6 as far as "Energy per second, but volume/mass of a human being heated up to 15 million degrees Celsius is simply Multi-City Block+

 

[Antoniofer]

And the other issue with the heat calcs, the amount of power vary depending of the size of the affected. If you consider te size of a person of course it will seems little, but tryit with an elephant, or the Empire State, 15 millions degrees Celcius is far superior than any subliminal point material of the ES. I don't known how to calculate the time it takes to melt/vaporize something, but don't think it last that much.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Fair enough, although surface area is a factor in blunt impact feats as well, to be entirely fair.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, I know that it also varies depending on the size of the target. And for blunt force trauma, there's inverse square law for the shock wave; the initial impact has it all, but then it gradually spreads while also pushing against the gravity.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, would we assume the whole area of the thing affected for a tier?

Like, wouldn't assume a certain amount of surface area for that? Else it'd be the same as a normal person getting punched in five different parts of his body and us saying that he can take an attack with the combined power of those punches.

 

[Agnaa]

@Ant I presume that that's still reasonable to resolve. We just transfer it to joules for use on profiles.

If someone heats a human to X degrees, for a result of 2 quintillion joules, and then tries to heat an ant with a heat resistance of 1 quintillion joules, they'd heat the ant up to a temperature above X degrees, and get through its heat resistance.

But then again, I can see this sort of thing becoming an issue if a character's fire is described by its temperature, it'd seem weird to assume the fire could heat things to above that temperature...

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I would like to note there is two kinds of heat resistance feats:

• A character has a very high specific heat; they are harder to heat up to certain temperatures.

• A character isn't harder to heat up than a normal human, but isn't affected by being at higher temperatures.

Although there's plenty of examples of characters with both.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Risci, we don't stack durability from consecutive punches as durability vs Endurance is a thing. And yes, heat capacity vs Melting Point/Boiling Point is also a thing. I also think Monkey D Luffy is an example of a character having his Heat Manipulation scale to his physical attacks given he literally Powers up by heating up his own body in an instant.

 

[Agnaa]

I happen to know of another type of heat resistance.

A character isn't harder to heat up than a normal human, but their body quickly "regenerates" from a high temperature to a normal temperature.