Freezing and Temperature Feats Continued

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

@KLOL506 There's still a bit less than 12 hours till lockdown.

 

[Antvasima]

Even beyond changing pages, this will be a massive revision project that will change scaling for many verses, as heat AP/Dura and force AP/Dura will need to be listed separately.

So I think we should wait until the forum move's over before we discuss this further.

That is best, yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree, we perhaps might need to close the thread before the lock down given we got over 450+ posts and wait till after the move before looking over verses.

It was agreed that while Force and Heat are indeed two different things, it's case by case on verses treating them. But as me, DontTalk, and Elizhaa said, same energy sources should make them scale generally. Where as them just being different military weapons carried by regular people with no notable supernatural powers are examples of them being separate based on what Ugarik, Dargoo, and even myself said on that matter.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. However, I had the impression that DontTalk and yourself want us to continue with a similar method/approach as previously. Do I misremember?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My PC kind of crashed, when I had a few paragraphs written. So my wording might be off given I forgot exactly what I wrote.

I don't think that was DontTalk that wanted to continue discussing it, but rather he agreed that the natural standard is techniques under the same context scale under each other whether it's a magic spell or a Ki technique. And same with tanking said spells or Ki attacks. That was more or less Dargoo who seemed to want to clarify other things.

He moved to my wall, but we seem confused on what the votes are about. He seems to think we misunderstand each other on what the votes are about. DontTalkDT did bring up scaling Heat manipulation feats to striking strength being a different story under certain circumstances. He also said something about not going to debate until "We agree on what we're voting Yay and Nay on" or something along the lines.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. I suppose that this will have to wait until after the move then.

 

[SuperAPM]

Antvasima

Do you know how long the move is going to be for?

 

[Antvasima]

No. Sorry. It depends on how quickly everybody involved get the conversion process done, and if we manage to handle moving everybody in this community to their new accounts without significant problems.

We also likely need to extend the partial lockdown some time afterwards, to properly focus on updating all of the versus thread links.

 

[SuperAPM]

Ok, well thanks for the heads up.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[KLOL506]

So, what is left to do here now?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems best to wait for the Forum move.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed.

 

[KLOL506]

So shall we close this thread until further notice?

 

[Agnaa]

That's not really necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. It doesn't seem to cause any harm to keep open.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh, OK then.

 

[Antvasima]

Just in case somebody in the staff wants to say something further about the topic, but I can close it otherwise.

 

[Jaakubb]

Alright I was having a conversatio with KLOL506. So apparently DDM's proposal would partly mean that ability to bring about a change in energy (which we agreed is the best interpretation of freezing) scales to striking strength?

If this is true could someone explain how this works? I don't get how you can logically go from "character can make x change in energy in one object (remember, energy goes somewhere else so it's a net zero change if you look at the big picture)" to "character can use x energy in an attack."

 

[DontTalkDT]

Considering that supernatural powers usually use a separate power source from physical strength, I personally see no reason to scale supernatural AP to physical AP. (Unless there are supporting information, of course)

Like, completely independent of the entire freezing debate. Pretty sure we never did that for any kind of magic.

Not that I know whether or not that was actually proposed, btw.

 

[KLOL506]

What about non-magical powers? Like in Iceman's case?

Also someone should contact DDM again just in case.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I think scaling supernatural to physical AP should only be when the physical strikes are based on a magical power source, such as chi or the Force in Star Wars.

Or when characters tank each other's powers physically.

 

[Jaakubb]

Well yeah I think that's kinda obvious. But my question was about something else.

If a character is shown to displace 8.35 gigatons of tnt equivalent energy(KLOL and I agreed that "displacement", or directly moving the energy itself rather than providing a counteracting force to the particles is the best interpretation of freezing) why do we assume that they can also produce 8.35 gigatons of tnt equivalent and use it in an attack?

 

[KLOL506]

I think scaling supernatural to physical AP should only be when the physical strikes are based on a magical power source, such as chi or the Force in Star Wars.
Or when characters tank each other's powers physically.

This.

 

[KLOL506]

Well yeah I think that's kinda obvious. But my question was about something else.
If a character is shown to displace 8.35 gigatons of tnt equivalent energy(KLOL and I agreed that "displacement", or directly moving the energy itself rather than providing a counteracting force to the particles is the best interpretation of freezing) why do we assume that they can also produce 8.35 gigatons of tnt equivalent and use it in an attack?

Because of the universal power source thingy. Like where Spino just explained how it would work, like with the Force, Ki, Chakra and that type of shit.

 

[Antoniofer]

More than simply sharing the same source of power, it should also accounts for the difficulty of the technique. Just cuz a magic blast uses the same source of energy that the massive aoe attack doesn't mean it scale if the last attack consume more supply.

 

[Jaakubb]

Because of the universal power source thingy. Like where Spino just explained how it would work, like with the Force, Ki, Chakra and that type of shit.

But "displacing" energy and "producing" energy arent linearly related at all, not even when it comes to chi, chakra, mana etc. It could take 10 mana to disperse 10 gigatons of energy but also take 10 mana to create a Building level explosion. Nothing implies otherwise, so Occam's razor says we should discard it (not completely, only in terms of quantifying striking strength) instead of assigning some arbitrary value that nothing, not even fiction implies.

 

[KLOL506]

It really wouldn't matter at the end of the day whether it's displacing or producing or if they're linearly related in the first place, since the proposal's literally gonna change it.

Also we're running out of comments.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Seems best to wait for the Forum move.

^

Guys, I'd rather whatever posts are made here are readable when the forum move is done instead of us having a massive debate but have no way of actually going over it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm with DontTalk that it's not exactly a default. More or less, abilities done using Supernatural powers scale to other supernatural powers of the same source though. However, I already mentioned examples where plenty of verses due scale magic to striking strength. Such as pretty much every single JRPG, because they have a Tier via a supernatural feat, they can trade blows with magic regardless of spell; hence durability scales. And trade blows via punching, or swinging swords at each other. And it's not like the Black Mage is leagues above the Warrior power level wise. As for "Healing drains energy", that's more or less a common weakness rather than part of the scaling is that characters can heal or revive, but doing so drains stamina.

Also, I do agree with Dargoo with this though. That we shouldn't waste the rest of our posts. However, I do need to note that our most recent posts are probably getting hakai'd anyway, and that even if the thread gets emptied out, the thread will still successfully move and we could always link this thread to any new ones.

 

[Jaakubb]

It really wouldn't matter at the end of the day whether it's displacing or producing or if they're linearly related in the first place

But they arent. Unless you can prove it? Id even be open to fictional intent arguments.

 

[KLOL506]

Again, like I said, with DDM's new proposals, it literally would not matter, even if they're not related.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I agree with Spino.

This won't be saved to the new forum though, so it is the wrong time for standard practice revisions right now.

However, I would appreciate if somebody remembers to bring this up later.

 

[Jaakubb]

Again, like I said, with DDM's new proposals, it literally would not matter, even if they're not related.

So why do you support DDM's new proposals? Do you have a reason to?

 

[Agnaa]

Jaakubb. Take it to a message wall, please.

 

[Agnaa]

Zark heavily disagrees with including heat separately in AP/Dura, and thinks it should be relegated to the P&A section.

Since this seems very different from what was planned to be talked about after the forum move, I figured I'd bring it up now. Does anyone know who has agreed to listing them in AP/Dura?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Welp, it was pretty much near-unanimously agreed. Don't recall anyone disagreeing with that in the previous threads, albeit I was admittedly not a big part of it.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't remember it being disagreed with either.

But what should we do now that it's not so unanimous? Should "where do we place heat feats" simply be a question in one of the later threads?

 

[KLOL506]

Removing heat from the AP and dura section is an obvious no-no for what DDM and most of the staff stated, regardless of whether it is separated or scales to Striking Strength.

BTW where did Zark say it?

 

[Agnaa]

Spino is also bringing up issues of how, since conduction would need to be accounted for, almost no heat feats would be over tier 8, and no heat feats would scale to their full value when tanked. Making the idea of separating them a lot more dicey, imo.

On Discord.

EDIT: AKM Sama seems to disagree with separating heat/force, but has missed thees threads until now. Looks like we'll really need to be consulting staff more actively about these revisions, and they're probably not as close as concluding as they seemed.