-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Freezing and Temperature Feats Continued
- Thread starter DarkDragonMedeus
- Start date
- Status
- 15,637
- 5,392
Plus, I already explained that a lot of verses just have it explained that the more energy uses, the stronger the attack regardless of energy type.
I mean, that fact is true regardless of how the energy is being propagated? A fire attack with more heat energy is obviously going to be a "stronger" fire attack; a punch with more kinetic energy is obviously going to be a "stronger" punch. It doesn't mean heat and force function the same in the verse.
I'm not sure how a verse going that more energy = stronger attack means we get the green light for disregarding thermodynamics when considering the feats.
You'd sort of need something bizarre like "I used the energy of this flame to enhance my punch" to make a conclusion like that, which while that's a thing, I'd hardly call that a trend. And even then I'd be wary about making broad conclusions about a verse's physics from a single feat like that.
And energy precision is a thing regarding any type of elemental attack or melee attacks.
This is the first time I've heard this mentioned on the thread. Could you elaborate?
But Universal energy manipulation is still energy manipulation for verses that actually do treat those feats interchangeably.
In that case, wouldn't we want explicit proof from the verse itself that those feats are interchangeable? I'm fine with that as a rule; although as we've discussed at length I disagree that "the heat attack and the force attack are both magical" is a proper justification for this.
I mean, that fact is true regardless of how the energy is being propagated? A fire attack with more heat energy is obviously going to be a "stronger" fire attack; a punch with more kinetic energy is obviously going to be a "stronger" punch. It doesn't mean heat and force function the same in the verse.
I'm not sure how a verse going that more energy = stronger attack means we get the green light for disregarding thermodynamics when considering the feats.
You'd sort of need something bizarre like "I used the energy of this flame to enhance my punch" to make a conclusion like that, which while that's a thing, I'd hardly call that a trend. And even then I'd be wary about making broad conclusions about a verse's physics from a single feat like that.
And energy precision is a thing regarding any type of elemental attack or melee attacks.
This is the first time I've heard this mentioned on the thread. Could you elaborate?
But Universal energy manipulation is still energy manipulation for verses that actually do treat those feats interchangeably.
In that case, wouldn't we want explicit proof from the verse itself that those feats are interchangeable? I'm fine with that as a rule; although as we've discussed at length I disagree that "the heat attack and the force attack are both magical" is a proper justification for this.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,676
- 14,054
We haven't highlighted it in a while, right? Didn't we highlight it back when it was still about freezing vs heat vs force in general?
Regardless, I'd say to keep bringing it to higher and higher "courts" until we get a resolution.
If no-one here knows how to resolve it, then I'll make a thread about how to resolve stalls like this in general.
If there's no ideas there, I'll ask Ant to bring the topic up to the bureaucrats, and their votes plus DT's can determine things.
Regardless, I'd say to keep bringing it to higher and higher "courts" until we get a resolution.
If no-one here knows how to resolve it, then I'll make a thread about how to resolve stalls like this in general.
If there's no ideas there, I'll ask Ant to bring the topic up to the bureaucrats, and their votes plus DT's can determine things.
- 15,637
- 5,392
It might be better to, instead of highlighting this, to message the remaining staff members who have yet to vote on this.
- 31,638
- 34,661
- Thread starter
- #405
As explained, thermal energy and electrical energy are both technically subsets of kinetic energy. Meaning a hotter fire does have more kinetic energy similar to e heavier and/or faster punch. Or a lightning bolt having more wattage.
A 4-B fireball is a thing, that's an example of energy precision. Or even a small lightning bolt directed at a strong opponent.
Pretty sure nearly every verse on my mind actually does have the proof or the proof is just there. Also, "Both punches and heat attack being magical" wasn't the main argument. Just that, two characters trade blows both with physical and magical attacks and characters are portrayed as very strong both with and without magic. Even if with magic is stronger though.
I agreed on asking more staff members, but some of them had yet to respond or didn't seem interested.
A 4-B fireball is a thing, that's an example of energy precision. Or even a small lightning bolt directed at a strong opponent.
Pretty sure nearly every verse on my mind actually does have the proof or the proof is just there. Also, "Both punches and heat attack being magical" wasn't the main argument. Just that, two characters trade blows both with physical and magical attacks and characters are portrayed as very strong both with and without magic. Even if with magic is stronger though.
I agreed on asking more staff members, but some of them had yet to respond or didn't seem interested.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,676
- 14,054
That could work. I was thinking of writing a post to put on their walls, basically outlining that we've agreed to separate heat and force on profiles, but we haven't agreed on whether they automatically scale when sharing an energy source.
But since that is the point of contention, I'd also like to give them easy access to those arguments.
Asking each side to write out their argument and plopping that in my post would sorta resolve that, but counterarguments are part of the discussion. And we're also running low on posts...
Do you reckon that you two could collaborate to create an OP for a new thread where you outline your points in the OP, letting you respond to each other's original arguments (and any new staff member's arguments) in the thread itself?
But since that is the point of contention, I'd also like to give them easy access to those arguments.
Asking each side to write out their argument and plopping that in my post would sorta resolve that, but counterarguments are part of the discussion. And we're also running low on posts...
Do you reckon that you two could collaborate to create an OP for a new thread where you outline your points in the OP, letting you respond to each other's original arguments (and any new staff member's arguments) in the thread itself?
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,676
- 14,054
idk, it feels like more of a general policy thing about how fiction works in general, rather than a "this is how physics works in reality" issue. We don't have magic systems IRL so we can't know whether they'd scale heat to force.
But if everyone else thinks this should just be talked about with calc members, I wouldn't be opposed to putting the thread in calc group forum and only contacting them.
But if everyone else thinks this should just be talked about with calc members, I wouldn't be opposed to putting the thread in calc group forum and only contacting them.
- 31,638
- 34,661
- Thread starter
- #409
It's a staff thread in general, not just Calc groups, but also the general policy. Anyway, I have tried to contact Ultima Reality, Elizhaa, and WeeklyBattles via discord. Haven't responded yet though.
- 15,637
- 5,392
As explained, thermal energy and electrical energy are both technically subsets of kinetic energy. Meaning a hotter fire does have more kinetic energy similar to e heavier and/or faster punch. Or a lightning bolt having more wattage.
I'm not sure what your point with this is.
Yes, heat measures the collective microscopic motion of particles in a given mass, and on an individual basis that motion can be expressed as kinetic energy. That doesn't make heat and force the same, though; as force is measuring a singular, collective motion on a macroscopic scale. It's kind of like saying a physical change and a chemical change are "practically the same thing" because you could, by technicality, call the microscopic movement of electrons, protons, and neutrons, as just physical changes in location. You're correct, but if you concluded from that, that we call an ice cube melting and wood burning the same thing you'd be jumping through some insane hoops in logic.
So, what's the point here? You clearly agree the energies propagate entirely differently. What makes more energy = stronger attack some kind of "proof" against basic thermodynamics in a verse when that's something obvious in regular thermodynamics?
A 4-B fireball is a thing, that's an example of energy precision. Or even a small lightning bolt directed at a strong opponent.
That doesn't necessarily answer what I was confused about. How does this relate to heat vs. physical force?
Also, "Both punches and heat attack being magical" wasn't the main argument. Just that, two characters trade blows both with physical and magical attacks and characters are portrayed as very strong both with and without magic. Even if with magic is stronger though.
That is not what the vote was about by your own words on the matter earlier on this thread. The exception to the rule is a shared power source (i.e. Magic, Ki, Chi, whatever). We have already concluded that the outside of that exception, which still needs to be decided on, that heat and force aren't to be conflated. Characters generically trading blows with heat and force attacks just mean they have whatever heat and force attacks they respectively tanked/dished out.
If the latter is retroactively grouped in as some kind of "exception" to the proposals here, nothing's even being proposed, and I'd recount the votes on that line instead of the line of what DontTalk and I actually discussed. Many of the "Yay" votes expressed that they were against them being conflated as you're suggesting.
I'm not sure what your point with this is.
Yes, heat measures the collective microscopic motion of particles in a given mass, and on an individual basis that motion can be expressed as kinetic energy. That doesn't make heat and force the same, though; as force is measuring a singular, collective motion on a macroscopic scale. It's kind of like saying a physical change and a chemical change are "practically the same thing" because you could, by technicality, call the microscopic movement of electrons, protons, and neutrons, as just physical changes in location. You're correct, but if you concluded from that, that we call an ice cube melting and wood burning the same thing you'd be jumping through some insane hoops in logic.
So, what's the point here? You clearly agree the energies propagate entirely differently. What makes more energy = stronger attack some kind of "proof" against basic thermodynamics in a verse when that's something obvious in regular thermodynamics?
A 4-B fireball is a thing, that's an example of energy precision. Or even a small lightning bolt directed at a strong opponent.
That doesn't necessarily answer what I was confused about. How does this relate to heat vs. physical force?
Also, "Both punches and heat attack being magical" wasn't the main argument. Just that, two characters trade blows both with physical and magical attacks and characters are portrayed as very strong both with and without magic. Even if with magic is stronger though.
That is not what the vote was about by your own words on the matter earlier on this thread. The exception to the rule is a shared power source (i.e. Magic, Ki, Chi, whatever). We have already concluded that the outside of that exception, which still needs to be decided on, that heat and force aren't to be conflated. Characters generically trading blows with heat and force attacks just mean they have whatever heat and force attacks they respectively tanked/dished out.
If the latter is retroactively grouped in as some kind of "exception" to the proposals here, nothing's even being proposed, and I'd recount the votes on that line instead of the line of what DontTalk and I actually discussed. Many of the "Yay" votes expressed that they were against them being conflated as you're suggesting.
- 31,638
- 34,661
- Thread starter
- #412
I am talking to Prom right now, but I can send a message to Ryukama.
- 15,637
- 5,392
I feel like there's a misunderstanding between myself and DDM as to what the vote's actually about and what's already been decided, which I'd like to clear up before we conclude the vote, to be honest.
I can do that over message walls with him if we want to conserve thread space, if necessary.
I can do that over message walls with him if we want to conserve thread space, if necessary.
- 31,638
- 34,661
- Thread starter
- #414
Promestein said she doesn't really have any thoughts and said "It should just be case by case". And yeah, I don't think either one of use understand what the other was actually arguing, but I agree message walls would be more preferable as that's pretty much what Agnaa did regarding his questions for other stuff.
- 11,141
- 14,175
"The exception to the rule is a shared power source (i.e. Magic, Ki, Chi, whatever). We have already concluded that the outside of that exception, which still needs to be decided on, that heat and force aren't to be conflated."
Even in those verses it should be looked upon on verse by verse basis. Even if the energy source is the same the verse could still consider a fire/heat attack as being superior to a normal punch. At the same time there are verses that treat fire/heat attacks the same as an energy attack that scale to their physical attacks. I don't think you could really make a rigid rule for that.
Even in those verses it should be looked upon on verse by verse basis. Even if the energy source is the same the verse could still consider a fire/heat attack as being superior to a normal punch. At the same time there are verses that treat fire/heat attacks the same as an energy attack that scale to their physical attacks. I don't think you could really make a rigid rule for that.
- 168,521
- 77,242
And I do not remember this discussion well enough to have much of an opinion regarding it. DontTalkDT is usually very sensible though.
I definitely don't think that this would be a good time to highlight the thread, but you can ask several staff members to help you out via their message walls if you wish.
I definitely don't think that this would be a good time to highlight the thread, but you can ask several staff members to help you out via their message walls if you wish.
- 31,638
- 34,661
- Thread starter
- #421
I already laid out explanations in the OP that I don't think many people read, but basically this. The first is basically an outline for respect blog for a typical Shounen RPG mix style verse. As well as a detailed list for a power scaling chain and list of feats.
The second post is basically what the typical scaling chain would look like based on mine and DontTalk's input. Basically energy manipulation is energy manipulation. Some characters can manipulate the same energy of their temperature based attacks Heating/Cooling and harness that same level of energy into their physical attacks. That's what pretty much every verse with a Universal energy source can do. And in addition to that, stuff like physical characters are canonically equal to potent magic users and can trade blows regardless of physical or magical attacks being interchangeably needs to be considered and can't be overly knit picked.
Third is Dargoo's side still disagrees for other reasons such as a lot of those energies being used for non combat applicable stuff in addition to combat related stuff. And also doesn't think it should be the norm for characters to have that kind of control for all combat related stuff. And also argues that "trading blows" or "Official power level ratings being equal" aren't always grounds for scaling.
| Respect paragraph/Power scaling chain for a typical verse |
|---|
| So this isn't any sort of real verse, but let's say I decided to make a fanfiction like verse that's RPG and/or Shounen Manga style. Or it has canon media containing both. It has a seemingly medieval fantasy like setting, but certain modern weapons exist such as explosives. But the most prominent thing is that it has a level up system like most RPGs and they also got have this thing where their power level is based on how much "Fighting Spirit" they have based on the lore. Fighting Spirit has a combination of spiritual and magical properties, but characters also used them to enhance physical strength, durability, and speed. They're also often used for magic barriers and stuff. But even non magic users still have great levels and often comparable levels to that of magic users. The games if any also have SP (Stands for Spirit Points) as an ammunition statistic for their special attacks. They're using used for status effecting hax, healing, and teleportation but those game mechanics shouldn't be used for scaling purposes. But now down to the feats and the respect scaling. The first feat done by level 1 characters is fighting various large monsters. One of the mooks has canonically withstood a point blank explosion with the durability feat calculated at slightly above 500 kg, since explosions are a combination of heat at force, so it's a solid tier feat. This is 8-C which would scale to fodder characters for sure. After the party progressed a bit in their journey, at least one of the mages learns an Ice Berg spell that was calculated at 8-B. The Ice Mage is equal in power to the Fire Mage, and both of them can regularly trade blows along side the party's sword wielding Warriors and Hand to Hand combat Monks regardless of whether physical or magical attacks are being used. So that's 8-B temperature manipulation and resistance, but whether it scales to physical durability is up to debate. And at this point, everyone completely fodderizes stomps the various 8-C mooks. With even further progressions, they part comes across a fire golem like enemy. This guy has a lava spell capable of melting giant rocks. Which was calculated at 8-A based on how much stone they were able to melt in a single second. The party was able to defeat this enemy and trade blows. So this enemy has 8-A heat manipulation, and the party would have to have 8-A levels of heat resistance to tank their precision fireballs that can also explode. The Fire Golem can also attack with melee. Also, the part is invulnerable to the 8-B and below foes at this point; both physical and magical/temperature attacks. With yet even more progressions, they meet a casual "Hill Buster". It's a giant that shatters a hill, which was calculated at around 15 Kilotons. This giant is invulnerable to everything that came before both physically and magically, until the protagonists grew strong enough to trade blows with this behemoth. So this giant is Town level and is overwhelmingly greater than everything they fought before them, this includes Multi-City Block level and below attacks heat, electric, melee, all having no effect. Upon further progression, a Thunder God is introduced. Thunder God performs a Low 7-B feat. Said Thunder God becomes a new formidable foe that's mightier than all previous enemies. It's a storm feat, typically pass as environmental destruction, but this god is an embodiment of the storm they create. The same Thunder God is also physically much stronger than the previous giant who would take 0 damage from the party that was even with said giant. A new foe has an attack that nukes the battle field. The nuclear explosion was calculated at 7-A which to protagonists can calculated at point blank range. Explosions are impressive heat and force wise, so this easily scales as a 7-A feat at this point in time. And no need to mention how much the protagonists have progressed. With even more progression, an Ice Mage was now able to freeze an entire lake. This was calculated at 6-C. The Fire Mage should logically be equally capable of unfreezing the same lake due to being equal to the Ice Mage. And the warrior is also still able to trade blows with the same strongest enemies and the same protagonists can trade blows with each other with each other. The 7-A nuke is nothing to any of them at this point in time. Even more progressions, and the Wind Mage was able to blow way massive amounts of clouds with a Hurricane. The kinetic energy was calculated at 6-B which the same Wind Mage can harness their same magic into a single attack to cut their enemies. Wind is physical, and thus would scale to physical durability. The Fire and Ice Mages can still trade blows with the Wind Mage and same with the Warrior. Reaching near the end of the series chronologically, the 12 Legendary Weapons where introduced, they are by lore implied to have equal power, but when it comes to individual feats, there are two that stand out. There is Durandel, the Blazing Sword of Fire, and Malte, the Frozen Lance of Blizzards. The wielders of said two weapons were able to affect the planet's atmosphere. A single strike from the Malte was able to cause an Ice age, similar to the level seen in this blog. And Durandel was able to cause Global warming and return the Earth to its original stage. Legendary Weapons all have mystic powers that also enhance the wielder, and only those with great power can wield them. As the weapons possess great powers that destroy the wielders if they're not strong enough to handle them. Upon growing much stronger than their 6-B selves, they can now use these weapons just fine. Finally, the God Tier enemy of the verse is capable of creating a pocket reality with an Earth to Sun distance. Said character can also invoke the star to go Supernova and warp the pocket reality, and has trapped the protagonists within. The Protagonists can not only trade blows with the Final Antagonist, but the only way out would be to destroy the final enemy and thus destroy the pocket reality. Supernovas are High 4-C which is impressive both heat and force wise. So this is a clear cut High 4-C feat. And that wraps up to power scaling chain progressions. Note: This does NOT include that gag Galaxy level feat that happened early on done by a underdog Jester character; that's an outlier. And it also excludes PIS such as a game mechanic of characters loosing health when the step in lava in the games, or fodder/mook enemies chip damaging the protagonists. It also excludes casual low end feats such as a Wind God who also has a 8-A calculated Tornado feat done on screen. But the protagonists were well past 7-C physically, and the Wind God was lore wise equal to the Low 7-B Thunder God who has his storm feat. |
| Those who are the Yay's power scaling chain conclusions |
|---|
|
| Those who are in Nay's power scaling chain's conclusions |
|---|
|
- 31,638
- 34,661
- Thread starter
- #424
I understand that, and I know it's complicated. But DontTalkDT already summarized it all in detail. And I think it was agreed to invite remaining staff members. Elizhaa said he would comment soon.
- 15,637
- 5,392
> Third is Dargoo's side still disagrees for other reasons such as a lot of those energies being used for non combat applicable stuff in addition to combat related stuff. And also doesn't think it should be the norm for characters to have that kind of control for all combat related stuff. And also argues that "trading blows" or "Official power level ratings being equal" aren't always grounds for scaling.
@DDM
I literally just asked you to wait on our discussion off-thread before posting summaries regarding our discussion. I heavily disagree with this being what the vote was on; and I feel like a bunch of other points that were already agreed o are being tacked onto the vote retroactively when the vote was very simply just on the exception of the attacks sharing a power source.
If you're insisting on redefining the discussion to that, I would suggest recounting the vote, since, again, many of the "Yay" votes you counted agreed with my arguments on every point excepting the contention between myself and DontTalk.
(EDIT): I would honestly like the summary be done by a neutral party, since I feel like any summary you or I put forward will be biased towards one end of the vote or the other.
@DDM
I literally just asked you to wait on our discussion off-thread before posting summaries regarding our discussion. I heavily disagree with this being what the vote was on; and I feel like a bunch of other points that were already agreed o are being tacked onto the vote retroactively when the vote was very simply just on the exception of the attacks sharing a power source.
If you're insisting on redefining the discussion to that, I would suggest recounting the vote, since, again, many of the "Yay" votes you counted agreed with my arguments on every point excepting the contention between myself and DontTalk.
(EDIT): I would honestly like the summary be done by a neutral party, since I feel like any summary you or I put forward will be biased towards one end of the vote or the other.
- 31,638
- 34,661
- Thread starter
- #427
I know that it was agreed to wait on the thread off topic, but my hands are extremely tied up. And when did they agree with your side? Also, I'm actually extremely unbiased and don't appreciate such accusations. Because even some of those who voted Nay said different things on other threads implying they sided with the Yay side or even against distinction heat Vs Force in general. I agree neutral parties should be making summaries, but DontTalk is widely considered the most ration-able regarding these standards. Anyway, let's please move to the wall to discuss things.
But anyway, the discussion was made perfectly clear it's on applying energy equalization for universal energy sources where everything is made of that source.
But anyway, the discussion was made perfectly clear it's on applying energy equalization for universal energy sources where everything is made of that source.
- 15,637
- 5,392
I'll be moving to the wall as well, although these two lines I need to respond to here:
I know that it was agreed to wait on the thread off topic, but my hands are extremely tied up.
No offense, but a simple "I'm still discussing this off-thread with Dargoo, wait a bit" would have probably satisfied Ant. I don't feel like you were forced to do or say anything.
Also, I'm actually extremely unbiased and don't appreciate such accusations.
You and I (alongside DontTalk) have been the two primary voices behind the opposing sides of this discussion for the past few threads. I'm confused why you think you're neutral on the matter.
If you don't feel like you're biased on the matter that's fine, however practically everything said and done on this thread for the past few months would make me rather have someone who wasn't part of the debate directly summarizing it.
I know that it was agreed to wait on the thread off topic, but my hands are extremely tied up.
No offense, but a simple "I'm still discussing this off-thread with Dargoo, wait a bit" would have probably satisfied Ant. I don't feel like you were forced to do or say anything.
Also, I'm actually extremely unbiased and don't appreciate such accusations.
You and I (alongside DontTalk) have been the two primary voices behind the opposing sides of this discussion for the past few threads. I'm confused why you think you're neutral on the matter.
If you don't feel like you're biased on the matter that's fine, however practically everything said and done on this thread for the past few months would make me rather have someone who wasn't part of the debate directly summarizing it.
- 31,638
- 34,661
- Thread starter
- #430
Elizhaa said he needed time to read the entire 400+ posts bit by bit before commenting.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,676
- 14,054
Even beyond changing pages, this will be a massive revision project that will change scaling for many verses, as heat AP/Dura and force AP/Dura will need to be listed separately.
So I think we should wait until the forum move's over before we discuss this further.
So I think we should wait until the forum move's over before we discuss this further.
- 10,804
- 1,639
That's soon, right?
- 10,804
- 1,639
Is that when we get the new ones?
- Status
