Freezing and Temperature Feats Continued

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel like that'd more just be another power, in that the character can alter their body's temperature in response to temperature change. The Lord Ruler and other heat feurochemists can do this too, but it's less heat resistance and more applied heat manipulation.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Risci, we don't stack durability from consecutive punches as durability vs Endurance is a thing.

Not what I'm saying. The punches happen at once but at different points of the body.

A more dry explanation is saying that putting 5 Joules on every Cm^2 of a human body is equal to putting 92500 joules to a single cm^2.

The surface are the energy affects is equally important as the amount of energy used.it's why bladed weapons are a thing.

 

[Antoniofer]

The issue that I find is that a building sized character will be more durable than a human sized character despite "tanking" exactly the same.

 

[Agnaa]

The issue that I find is that a building sized character will be more durable than a human sized character despite "tanking" exactly the same.

Well they don't tank exactly the same, they tank more of it.

A building 5m away from an explosion would tank more than a human 5m away from an explosion, despite the attack being the same.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ricsi is absolutely correct. Our system leaves surface area by the wayside a lot, although recent additions like Environmental Destruction have started to address it. When I consider our system, until we hit more esoteric tiers, I usually assume that the tier is as it applies to how much energy/force a chracter can apply to a fist-sized area.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The issue that I find is that a building sized character will be more durable than a human sized character despite "tanking" exactly the same.

Unless the attack spreads the heat over their whole body, I don't see why they would be.

Obviously thicker skin and such would give more resistance in that there is more to burn through to fatally wlund, but then that's like saying a larger person is harder to kill with X amount of energy because surprise, cutting through 10 meters of 8-C flesh is harder then cutting through a normal human sized 8-C.

 

[Wokistan]

So is this where we're arguing over scaling heat based attacks to everything based on whether or not they share the same source?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yes, Wok. I feel like we've derailed a bit, though, and the vote is currently dead even.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, this is starting to become a derailment from the main point. DT said he's be back "Soon" and that was a almost a week ago. He might come back to elaborate why, but I still strongly agree that verses with a linear/simplified Power level system should just be treated as simplified when it comes to energy feats. But we can message more staff members to get this over with.

 

[Antoniofer]

I'm assuming the same temperature cover the entire body (for practical purposes, assume both are in the sun's core); if they the attack is not aoe, the big guy wins, but not cuz is more durable, is due taking insignificant damage.

@Agna, actually, conventional building are less resistent to explosions than humans are, at 10 psi is enough to destroy concrete, meanwhile is needed 20 psi to have nearly a 100% of killing a grown human, and not cuz it blows you into pieces, is due baratrauma.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I honestly don't mind not starting the argument again; I feel like DDM continued what DT was going to say anyways and we ended up at a position where both of us got tired of exchanging the same points.

 

[Wokistan]

Well back on that matter then:

I don't think things like that should scale solely because they're from the same source. If one source can already be used to preform a variety of different types of feat, why can't a variance in power also be part of that? It's just like stuff like storms and creation that we shouldn't be scaling out to everything as a default because it's a fundamentally different type of action, especially if it does not match the scale of what's displayed otherwise.

I don't think it's absolutely impossible to use or whatever. All the Guardian powers in like Destiny should be comparable to one another, but Destiny has other stuff going for it like how you'll be using all of these things in conjunction all the time, explosion stuff to work as both heat and AP, and how almost everything in that game is some form of reality warping or law manip and acts on beings themselves who don't properly follow physics. That isn't the same as hypothetical wizard joe having a "burn object at 12 trillion degrees spell" and a generic kinetic missile spell and saying that the latter should be comparable to the former without reasons for it to be.

On the topic of heat resistances outside one's own tier, why's that a bad thing? If it's how the character is, that's how they are.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That's basically what I'm arguing for, yes. This really hammers the nail on it better than I did, honestly.

 

[Agnaa]

If we do implement this, what heat durability should we assume for featless characters?

 

[Antoniofer]

The old and reliable: '''Unknown'''.

 

[Agnaa]

So every profile on the site would need a heat durability of Unknown if they don't have heat dura feats?

And every match on the site where a character has heat-based attacks against a character with Unknown heat dura would need to be removed? (Since we no longer know if that heat attack would one-shot or do nothing)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is why DontTalk's proposals make the most sense. Because even the people arguing against him are arguing against each other and are going back and forth and sound like we're trying to over complicate the system to the point where we're barely even going to have a Tiering system to begin with. And spamming the thread so it gets cluttered and we'd have to make a 3rd one isn't helping this any further. I know the votes seem nearly evenly split; which even the vote count isn't the best approach.

But anyway, I am never going to budge and I'm pretty sure other staff members who haven't been talking here will agree with him more. I know Matt has also basically said the same thing and agreed with what DT has said here. And I asked Dragon what he though, but I don;t think he commented. He did kudos DT a while back though. But seriously, instead of arguing back and forth, why don't we start inviting more staff so we can get this running more smoothly.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If we do implement this, what heat durability should we assume for featless characters?

If a heat durability is nonexistent, we assume they have the same heat durability as a regular human.

As long as we state this in policy or on a blog we don't have to edit every single profile.

I'm going to be frank here, I don't particularly care how simple or complicated our system is as long as it makes logical sense. There are plenty of other sites which operate on debating rules that are more complicated than ours in every way possible and they do fine. Our system isn't the pinnacle of truth and isn't flawless, and can be improved; the world isn't going to end if we make it more internally consistent.

To add on, again this is a massive exaggeration of what's going to happen, and I feel like straws are being grasped for in this regard as the moment Agnaa mentioned the possibility of something being applied site-wide this was the immediate reaction of the supporters of the status quo. It's been a consistent and repeated argument but is meaningless in a vaccum unless the point is that we can't improve the site as a whole.

And spamming the thread so it gets cluttered and we'd have to make a 3rd one isn't helping this any further. I know the votes seem nearly evenly split; which even the vote count isn't the best approach.

We're all admins here, one of us can edit the OP with a counter if you're particularly worried about that. Other than that I don't see the issue with a vote count seeing as you admit right after this that you won't budge in a debate, so I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you.

But seriously, instead of arguing back and forth, why don't we start inviting more staff so we can get this running more smoothly.

I've already been doing that and have already asked people to do that. Pointing out that we should do it again isn't really accomplishing anything, just go around and ask people.

 

[Spinoirr]

If a character can affect things with a Lazer that can heat things. But if a character can push through their lazer's force but they shoot out another beam to heat up (idk something like a tusk) while they are pushing through the beam and not affected by the heat and only affected by the force of the beam. Like do we count if a character shown to be affected by heat to scale their Durability to the beam as it's pushing them as it clearly has force to it? Like some dragon ball characters can push through beams so they should scale to be stronger then the character doing the beam attack, right?

 

[Agnaa]

If a heat durability is nonexistent, we assume they have the same heat durability as a regular human.

As long as we state this in policy or on a blog we don't have to edit every single profile.

And for all the beings that aren't humans?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

An attack can have both a heat element and a force element to it; explosions are a big example of this in real life. So for a beam attack that shatters a bunch of stone and melts a metal bar; we'd calc the stone being shattered and the metal being melted and list them as part of the same attack.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

.
And for all the beings that aren't humans?

If they're human-sized and made of flesh it'd generally be about the same (although with some exceptions, like characters covered in fur that would insulate them).

If they're a robot it'd depend on how much their machinary could heat before breaking, although they will generally have a decently higher heat resistance in that they can withstand higher temperature than humans, although they'll be easier to heat due to being made of metal.

If they're far larger/smaller then it might be something worth calculating seperately based on volume/mass.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Currently I'm more on DontTalk's side here.

 

[Agnaa]

So we'd do calcs for characters based on their characteristics (size, composition, etc.) if they lack heat feats?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That would be ideal, yes. @Agnaa

@Matt Does that mean you're still on the fence on the vote, or are certainly voting for DT's interpretation?

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think requiring supporting evidence to scale heat and force together is over-complicating things too much.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not quite what I said; yes there is "Supporting evidence" But stuff like using a Universal energy source in a verse with a linear power level system does count as "Supporting evidence" in my eyes. I'm saying that making it completely forbidden to scale heat and force to each other entirely is.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel like Damage was saying that even with a shared power source like magic.

Although that's not what I or anyone else here said either - I'm not saying it's completely forbidden to scale them, I just think we need justifications for scaling them that go beyond "well, both use magic".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And mine was beyond, "They both use magic or Ki" I meant, not only do they both use magic, Ki, or universal energy source, and they often trade blows with characters with similar magic/Ki tiers/Power levels and the characters consistently train to grow stronger in every way. And they also use that same Ki/Magic to enhance their physical strikes and trade blows. The tiers of those characters with all of the above in mind should just have strait forward statistics.

 

[Jaakubb]

If a heat durability is nonexistent, we assume they have the same heat durability as a regular human.

Tier 5 of higher being hurt by tier 9 heat attacks seems like quite a bit of a stretch. But then again, some of the energy in a planet busting punch would be converted to heat. 6-B getting hurt by 7-B heat attacks seems fine though.

But what if a tier 6 character's tier 6 feat involves SOME heat (maybe it's an explosion that has a fireball or a beam that melted or vaporized a little bit of rock, not a nuclear one, and virtually all explosions produce heat). Do we scale their heat resistance all the way to tier 6? Do we put it one tier behind just to be safe?

and they often trade blows with characters with similar magic/Ki tiers/Power levels and the characters consistently train to grow stronger in every way. And they also use that same Ki/Magic to enhance their physical strikes and trade blows

Correlation doesnt imply causation. In those cases, yes, it seems fine. But youre saying that in every case, heat and force attacks with universal power sources should scale to each other because they both use it. You dont necessarily need 8-B durability to survive a 100 mana teleportation spell when an 8-B attack in the verse costs the same amount of mana. Now why is this? It's because the spells use the energy in different ways. Not sure if the same applies to heat and "normal" kinetic energy, but i want to point that out. Also, in some verses, mana/chi/whatever may just be a currency that users use to gain favors from the gods/impersonal power source/basically the Force(?). It would have to do with the impact and value of the spell, not the energy output. Maybe im just making this up, but i can vaguely remember something like this in certain verses.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So you're saying there's two other justifications at play here, but I don't really see how they diverge significantly from the 'they both use magic' argument.

they often trade blows with characters with similar magic/Ki tiers/Power levels and the characters consistently train to grow stronger in every way.

What does this really establish though? If they trade blows with other attacks, why does that mean anything in regards to attacks that are fundamentally different in how it operates?

If they have similar levels of mana, what does that really mean too? We don't measure attacks by the pool of energy they draw from, we measure them by how much they can access for combat. And even then, something that is more magic-intensive doesn't necessarily have to be more energy-intensive.

And they also use that same Ki/Magic to enhance their physical strikes and trade blows.

This is literally just 'they both use magic', though.

 

[Agnaa]

Tier 5 of higher being hurt by tier 9 heat attacks seems like quite a bit of a stretch. But then again, some of the energy in a planet busting punch would be converted to heat. 6-B getting hurt by 7-B heat attacks seems fine though.

But what if a tier 6 character's tier 6 feat involves SOME heat (maybe it's an explosion that has a fireball or a beam that melted or vaporized a little bit of rock, not a nuclear one, and virtually all explosions produce heat). Do we scale their heat resistance all the way to tier 6? Do we put it one tier behind just to be safe?

We'd calc it. We wouldn't just pull numbers from our asses.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They used Ki or Magic to vaporize or freeze and ocean that was calculated at Continent level, they have Continent level Magic/Ki. They can precise that same level of magic into a beam of light or fireball and strike their enemy and use their magic/ki in a wide variety of combat applicable ways including enhancing their striking strength and durability, and many others in the same verse can do the same. They're tanking 6-A Magic/Ki and thus have Continent level durability.

Insert stronger character here is immune to all their magic and physical strikes, and only the strongest character in the verse can go toe to toe with him, both with magic and physical strikes; the God Tiers scale above them.

Also, that "Teleportation" example was fallacious. We don't scale hax to AP given status immunity equipment are a thing; characters can be stronger but not resist the same statuses. But there's literal magic power stat and strength being overwhelmingly higher than a much weaker character who did "The feat" should mean the character is indeed stronger than the feat.

Anyway, DragonMaster was unsure, but said he was leaning towards agreeing with DontTalk.

 

[Jaakubb]

We'd calc it. We wouldn't just pull numbers from our asses.

So would we use the calc for setting a volume of air on fire? Since lighting a mass of air (orange fire, the one commonly seen in fictional explosions) around the size of a house was calced to be 9-A, I guess results wouldnt be too small. Do we know how much of a planet busting punch would be converted to heat?

Also my point was that in other cases such as, I dont know, a little bit or rock being melted or vaporized would yield results possibly multiple tiers lower than the force aspect of the feat. Is that something that we're fine with?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> They can precise that same level of magic into a beam of light or fireball and strike their enemy and use their magic/ki in a wide variety of combat applicable ways including enhancing their striking strength and durability, and many others in the same verse can do the same.

Same amount of magic or energy? There's a difference, really, as like I mentioned magic is barely ever a perfect mirror of energy and is often contradictory in input and output. Which is great, because otherwise it'd usually defeat the purpose of writing fantasy in the first place.

If there's a specific sentence saying that the attacks have the same energy output, you're good, that's all I'm asking for (honestly a 'this attack was so much more powerful than that attack' would suffice at times, really). But it's a massive stretch to use mana values to relate energy values like this, especially when the energy values being related are from fundamentally different forces.

> Insert stronger character here is immune to all their magic and physical strikes, and only the strongest character in the verse can go toe to toe with him, both with magic and physical strikes; the God Tiers scale above them.

You're introducing a bunch of new elements here and diverting a lot from your core argument for the sake of example.

This character would arguably scale to the attacks that they negated. The issue you have here though is that you're assuming that all these attacks scale in energy values to begin with, when that's what we're arguing. So you haven't really brought much more to the table than, 'yeah, this would be correct if we assume my point is correct'.

Why are you still insistent on debating with me though? You admitted you're not budging on the matter. I'm only really replying here since my POV on this thread is flexible and can change, as it clearly did from the first thread.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Are we going to do this?

 

[KLOL506]

We're still waiting for DT to again put in his opinion to be able to take a more concrete decision.

 

[KLOL506]

Anway, the talies are as follows-

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino, DMUA, Bambu, Matt, prolly DragonMaster

Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep, Damage, Anton, Ricsi

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Matt didn't formally vote, and when I directly asked him if he was he said he didn't know, although IDK if he changed his mind since then.

Wok voted nay, I confirmed this off-site.

Dragonmaster hasn't voted yet.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DragonMaster leaned towards voting yay on Discord. Also, going to edit the OP at some point, and also going to make a list of what a typical power scaling chain would look like based on both the view points after I take care of some things.