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The temperature limit imposed by a coolant seems like it'd make those methods worse, as many feats would become ludicrous; are characters supposed to be reaching into space to move their coolant to millions of stray meteorites when they're freezing a whole planet? How are characters supposed to use coolant cooling when bringing an object of any noteworthy size to 0.01 Kelvi
Incredulity exists for all of these cases, I never disagreed with that. I do think however, that on the basis of how we powerscale currently the TK one is the worst, but that doesn’t matter all that much. The ultimate issue with cooling is we don’t know what energy is being exerted by the character and that matters when we aren’t calculating an increase in energy, only a loss in it. Therefore if no interpretation that actually determines the energy you would use can really be squared off against another, it should be left un-indexed.
And the alignment issue imposed by Doppler cooling also seems just kinda irrelevant. Why does it matter whether the cooling method only works in increments of 0.0005 degrees kelvin, or whether it can get asymptotically close to absolute zero?
I don’t know what you mean “alignment issue”. Electrons don’t have that many energy levels, and those energy levels aren’t there for our convenience. And the energy levels in general are at a very large magnitude compared to the momentum of a particle comprising a low kelvin temp gas.
Doppler cooling can get some particles to microkelvin, but that’s highly dependent on the particle.
Force acts on object, some energy ends up going to waste heat.
But ig you could just take the "force" as not part of the system, and so treat its energy change as irrelevant, and maybe you could also decide to ignore waste heat.
Tago seems more right here, but I'm not super confident either way. It doesn't seem right to talk about velocity in one direction as contributing to an object's temperature.
I think much of what I was about to say to that has been said in the discussion that followed, but I will post it anyway:
No, in principle temperature can be different in different reference frames, but not a common experience.
It's basically what I said regarding the scenario being unlikely to happen to a significant agree, though not impossible. The only reason it doesn't occur is that particles don't usually go all in one direction.
And I think in principle one direction velocity can be heat, by definition it should be part of the particle KE. For practical purposes it often is separated, though, yeah.
Anyway, you can basically also see the situation for every particle independently. For each atom a one-direction deceleration process is happening and that process in isolation is equivalent to an acceleration in another reference frame.
If for each atom the process is equivalent to doing something AP applicable, then for the sum of all atoms it should be as well.
You used it against your "telekinesis" option, which I basically view as your stand in for any option that addresses how cooling is just object stopping feats at a small scale (see next point).
That's a pretty bad way to put it, though I used that formulation as a metaphor in the past to show how large scale stopping and small scale stopping (cooling) feats can be envisioned the same.
I go with the option of "cooling magic is a magical power that manifests a specific phenomenon via an ability that is not more general purpose than that use case and, by default, should be assumed to function via work, i.e. force over distance application, as any other ability is assumed." If we want to make it really complicated.
You can define telekinesis as "the power to supernaturally apply force to something." In that case, it is telekinesis. But so is every other quantifiable magic feat then. Flame creation would also be telekinesis, because you magically apply a force to the atoms of the flame to heat it (by some means, that in case of magic is usually not clarified). Same for lightning, explosions, fracturing etc. It's all just force when you get to the bottom of it, so you can call it telekinesis.
Anyway, asking "how did magic make these things go from fast to slow" is just as meaningless as to ask "how did magic make these things go from slow to fast". It's a step too far backwards on the suspension of disbelieve. We don't need (or should have) a default assumption on the workings of magic power.
It's like having someone counter a planet level energy ball via a spell producing a black flame and saying that we shouldn't scale because we don't know by which exact laws of magic-physics magical black flame achieved balancing out and negating the planet level energy ball. If you counter x energy that scales up until it's proven to be hax, because it just displayed a quantifiable potency.
Like, by how we generally scale people a scenario where we say that Gray blocking Natsu's flame with his ice powers is no indication of scaling in magic power to Natsu would be pretty weird.
You don't really need to because shoving lots of energy into a stationary system without increasing its chemical potential energy will almost certainly increase its temperature.
In general no. It would first need to accelerate the atoms somehow. So how exactly does the force interaction of a magical energy that selectively accelerates some matter, but doesn't accelerate matter when contained in the human body work?
And how does the mage manage to not burn themselves? They must evidently somehow direct the kinetic energy of each atom away from their own body to not be impacted when surrounding themselves with flames.
Wow, suddenly this became a complicated science when we started to think about this magic fantasy power way too hard.
Seriously, it's magic, it's pretty ridiculous to expect it to have an explanation for how exactly it deals with the atomic-scale complexity when achieving a mundane phenomenon.
Well, most heat pumps typically use a mix of phase change (duh) and pressure change (think of spray cans turning cold when you use them) to achieve high cooling rates. But honestly, that's kind of irrelevant to the topic at hand here
I just feel like once you get to "telekinetically slowing down each individual particle by canceling out kinetic energy" you have long since passed the threshold of realism where I'd accept quantum mechanics as a counterpoint. Whether it's actually "grabbing" or "shoving" (which "imparting a force in the opposite direction of their velocity" would basically be) is a bit irrelevant at that point.
The heat pump idea also uses telekinetic shoving, but it also involves retrieving a refrigerant, and changing its pressure.
Every method of cooling something which matches up with the typical default feat in fiction would have a bunch of added assumptions/powers. I think precise telekinetic shoving is one of the better ones, I don't know why it should have realistic limits (like quantum mechanics) stripped away, while other methods wouldn't.
What would stop heat pumps from going to absolute zero if there were no quantum limits?
The ultimate issue with cooling is we don’t know what energy is being exerted by the character and that matters when we aren’t calculating an increase in energy, only a loss in it. Therefore if no interpretation that actually determines the energy you would use can really be squared off against another, it should be left un-indexed.
and with Doppler cooling the frequency has to be such that it will be absorbed but also doesn’t “overshoot” in momentum and push the particle the other way (which isn’t possible given the discreteness of energy levels)
I said “no interpretation that actually determines the energy you would use can really be squared off against another”, not “there is no interpretation that actually determines the energy you would use”.
As to the part I can’t reply to because it’s all quote, yeah you asked me why the ability to intervene perfectly on each particle was more capable of achieving AZ than doppler cooling. I gave you the reasons why at the most basic level doppler cooling cannot do that. Not sure what there’s left to talk about.
I said “no interpretation that actually determines the energy you would use can really be squared off against another”, not “there is no interpretation that actually determines the energy you would use”.
As to the part I can’t reply to because it’s all quote, yeah you asked me why the ability to intervene perfectly on each particle was more capable of achieving AZ than doppler cooling. I gave you the reasons why at the most basic level doppler cooling cannot do that. Not sure what there’s left to talk about.
I don't think telekinetic cooling can actually reach absolute zero because of quantum effects, so I don't think "can only cool in discrete increments" is a particularly good benefit. To me asking why that would matter, you simply asked what I meant by "alignment issue" and elaborated on how Doppler cooling works.
My reply of “materials too” to you bringing up AoE wasn’t me giving another limiting factor, I misread your comment since iirc I just woke up and said “well wait the issue isn’t just lower AoEs could do that it’s the materials too”. A better/ more precise response to you argument is the one I’m giving now, which is “when I say limiting factor I mean a hard limit”.
I don't think telekinetic cooling can actually reach absolute zero because of quantum effects, so I don't think "can only cool in discrete increments" is a particularly good benefit. To me asking why that would matter, you simply asked what I meant by "alignment issue" and elaborated on how Doppler cooling works.
I’m not sure what you mean by quantum effects here (just started 2nd QM module and I don’t like learning things out of order so). Are you talking about how AZ would be against Heisenberg uncertainty? Because that’s the case for the TK anyway.
My reply of “materials too” to you bringing up AoE wasn’t me giving another limiting factor, I misread your comment since iirc I just woke up and said “well wait the issue isn’t just lower AoEs could do that it’s the materials too”. A better/ more precise response to you argument is the one I’m giving now, which is “when I say limiting factor I mean a hard limit”.
I’m not sure what you mean by quantum effects here (just started 2nd QM module and I don’t like learning things out of order so). Are you talking about how AZ would be against Heisenberg uncertainty? Because that’s the case for the TK anyway.
You used it against your "telekinesis" option, which I basically view as your stand in for any option that addresses how cooling is just object stopping feats at a small scale (see next point).
1. I didn't. I simply believe the assumption is way out there.
2. Telekinesis is probably the last option I'd pick for that. Matter manipulation seems far more sensible to me when it comes to the ability of "slowing down individual particles"
"cooling magic is a magical power that manifests a specific phenomenon via an ability that is not more general purpose than that use case and, by default, should be assumed to function via work, i.e. force over distance application, as any other ability is assumed."
In that case you have no reason to assume that energy out = energy in. Cooling is inherently exothermic. You can't compare two exothermic processes unless you know the exact mechanics (point in case, look up rubidium vs lithium being thrown into water). Since it's an exothermic reaction there is inherently no reason to assume that the work done = total energy loss unless you just headcanon it to be such or use highly fictional assumptions such as telekinetic cooling.
That seems like a bit of a logical leap. I'd say the standard assumption would be that the character offers their energy as a "fuel source" that they "burn through", extracting/harnessing its potential energy, rather than shoving around individual particles.
I dont really want to talk about every single example, but I feel like this going to be helpful. Please elaborate on how you believe "telekinesis creates lightning".
It's like having someone counter a planet level energy ball via a spell producing a black flame and saying that we shouldn't scale because we don't know by which exact laws of magic-physics magical black flame achieved balancing out and negating the planet level energy ball. If you counter x energy that scales up until it's proven to be hax, because it just displayed a quantifiable potency.
Heating and cooling are inherently not the same thing. They are not two sides of the same coin. This has been covered several times with explanations and examples (the most blatant one being vaporization vs condensation, which I'd love to hear your reasoning on as to why that's fine to give to any character). This is not a leg you can stand on and a strawman and you know it.
Like, by how we generally scale people a scenario where we say that Gray blocking Natsu's flame with his ice powers is no indication of scaling in magic power to Natsu would be pretty weird.
You can calculate the durability of his ice and with what kind of kinetic energy he can yeet it, but you shouldn't calculate "the energy of his ice creation", let alone scale that to Natsu. They are not comparable like this.
In general no. It would first need to accelerate the atoms somehow. So how exactly does the force interaction of a magical energy that selectively accelerates some matter, but doesn't accelerate matter when contained in the human body work?
That's like asking why batteries or uranium aren't hot. Even if we assume it's the exact same thing in their body as it is what they shove into their surroundings it could simply be argued that they have an internal way of isolating it.
And how does the mage manage to not burn themselves? They must evidently somehow direct the kinetic energy of each atom away from their own body to not be impacted when surrounding themselves with flames.
1. I am very confident I can find you verses of mages burning themselves with their magic. I've seen that several times
2. From personal reading experience, it is very rare that a mage creates a fire so massive, hot and close to themselves that they'd burn up simply by being within the proximity
3. If it's specifically a fire mage they often have resistance to heat, often unrelated to their magic. Same with ice mages (you yourself brought the example of fairytail and Gray.)
4. They often have something akin to magic shielding
Seriously, it's magic, it's pretty ridiculous to expect it to have an explanation for how exactly it deals with the atomic-scale complexity when achieving a mundane phenomenon.
I am saying the same thing. We just come to a different conclusion as to what that means. I am saying "it's magic, so we shouldn't calculate it on something unrelated to the energy required to do the work", while you are saying "it's magic, so we should assume the work required is the exact same as the energy completely unrelated to the work required"
1. Like already said before, using both the Heisenber uncertainty and telekinesis is a bit contradictory. If that's what people wanna do, sure, go for it, but I think it's quite iffy.
2. If you make telekinesis the standard, would you be fine with granting all characters that are resistant to cooling a resistance to telekinesis and vice versa? Because if we make it the standard, unless elaborated otherwise by the verse, this would logically follow. Actually, if we assume cooling is telekinesis, what about heating? I don't mind doing that, but I feel like most people wouldn't like the consequences. My biggest issue is consistency. All the way or nothing at all.
