Andytrenom said:
You can calculate speed from KE under real life science, the only reason we can't for our ratings is because the relation isn't always reliable in a fictional context, which can lead to faulty statistics not supported by the actual work. As far as I can tell that is a completely different situation to what we're dealing with here, which is about heat and KE not being equatable in science to begin with.
Except I wasn't talking about calculating speed from KE. I was talking about 'scaling' energy to speed through a 'shared power source', which is the issue this kind of logic presents.
For example, getting a joules value from a spell, then saying that since the speedboosting magic has the same energy source of that spell, they can increase their speed with the same energy as their physical strikes, heat attacks, whatever.
Even if you were right on my argument though, this doesn't really change anything else I said in that post.
While I'm glad you're reading up on the topic, you should have continued to read in extremely basic thermodynamics then, as
immediately after it's established that everything's energy in some form, there's fundamental differences in the way heat and work/force transfer it. Which is why they aren't equatable, as while they can be both measured in energy, they transfer it in fundamentally different ways.
As for the Mana example, the problems still come from Gameplay balancing as we as Destructive Capacity Vs Attack Potency and many other things. Just because a Sword strike calculated at Tier 8, it doesn't make it locked at Tier 8.
Especially if they harm or killed a Tier 7 or above character.
If it was calculated at a certain tier, the only way it isn't that tier is if the material was misinterpreted or there was flaws in the calculation itself. If the character is more consistently in a tier above that, then we simply don't consider the feat as a lower-end showing. I feel like you're aware that characters don't need to constantly be preforming Tier Whatever feats during all combat scenarios.
Mana is another example of an endurance; some characters have infinite mana/MP and can spam their storm attacks or stack power ups for physical strikes indefinitely, so...
High 3-A?
I don't know what this means in the context of this debate.
If you're implying that having access to an infinite pool of mana makes one High 3-A, I feel like you've forgotten the many, many threads where it was determined that you need to be capable of effectively using infinite energy in a single attack, see
Johnny Joestar as a big example of this.
Anyway, the amount of MP/Mana required for the spell isn't the primary point, but the fact is them being able to perform the feat(s) it in the first place is what matters.
It is your primary point, and I'm not sure why you're pretending it isn't. It's the basis for scaling in various magic-based verses like
Overlord currently, heck.
Your argument can't even exist without considering the amount of mana. If you're conceding that mana values don't correlate to energy values, you can't compare different kinds of feats or scale different kinds of feats as the only in-verse metric is the amount of mana they take. So like I said before, nothing says that a Tier 9 punch enhancement can't be more mana-intensive than a Tier 7 storm creation.
So they can perform the storm creation, but since in some verses mana doesn't correlate to energy, you can't say that they can pump the same 'energy' into their punch enhancements since it doesn't operate on energy to begin with.
And the fact that those same feats are spammable is more than enough reason to treat it as a casual AP feat. A Tier 9/8 mage wouldn't even be close to producing a full storm cloud; at best he could just make a mini cloud that's not too far above their heads. It takes a Tier 7 or above mage to make a true storm cloud in the high skies or blizzard.
Sounds more like a casual
Environmental Destruction feat, but I guess that's listed on AP.
The lifting strength Vs Striking Strength is false equivalency. That's not interchangeable IRL; there are plenty of large animals that carry a massive load, but don't kick hard.
There is no correlation between heat resistance and blunt force resistance in physical materials.
There is no correlation between one's capability to output heat and one's capability to output physical force.
The only correlation our standard operates on is that they all involve the exchange of energy. Lifting Strength and Striking Strength both involve an exchange of energy, so if they share a power source, our system says they must scale like all the other unrelated forces we already scale.
My whole point is that none of these are interchangeable IRL outside of the measurement of energy, and you've just proved it wonderfully.
As for Speed Vs AP/Calc Stacking, that's a different issue. We're comparing AP to AP here, but now you're comparing AP to Speed.
You're comparing blunt force to heat, which are actually less relatable than blunt force and speed. Why is our system fine with conflating blunt force and heat but not blunt force and speed?
Well first of all, KE and speed aren't interchangeable per say. It's speed combined with weight that determines KE.
Heat and force aren't interchangeable either. This is my whole point.
And I'm sure we can come up with something. If the mage is enhancing their speed, we know their mass, so we can just say they're pumping X Tier energy into their speed, and then we backtrack kinetic energy. Obviously this is stupid and we shouldn't do it, but it's functionally what we're doing with heat in these verses.
(EDIT): Just to point out in case it isn't extremely obvious: I don't actually want us scaling Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, Speed, etc. I'm pointing out how easily our systems' logic lets us scale them with how it currently treats heat.
