Freezing and Temperature Feats Continued

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Even though the opposite is true of this. Even the link there is explicitly saying that only 50% of the nuke's energy is from the blast, and only for nukes (The same link Spino posted). Guess our Explosion Yield Calculations page needs a little bit of fixing.

On second thought, I think that this is because for non-nukes there is no thermal radiation and all the other stuff, so we only scale the character to the blast. However for nukes, all the blast, thermal radiation, ionising radiation and residual radiation are there, therefore all scale.

 

[KLOL506]

OK.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Is there a formula to find the heat of non-nuclear explosions if we indeed decide to separate force and heat feats?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm also pretty sure Spino agrees with my points outside of the context of the 'same power system' argument, though, iirc.

 

[KLOL506]

Is there a formula to find the heat of non-nuclear explosions if we indeed decide to separate force and heat feats?

I looked and honestly, I couldn't find any.

Also this would prolly only apply to explosions taken from a distance, not at point-blank.

 

[Jaakubb]

@Jaakubb, again; those words are approaching overwhelming amounts of headcanon for plenty of verses. Plenty of characters do use their own power to form thunder storms. Example being this. It is an S-Rank Tome that can only be wielded by S-Class Thunder Magic users as those weaker aren't powerful enough to use it. And it's consistent with various C rank to B rank tomes getting 8-A to 7-C results plus other S Rank tomes like Rexflame, Rexcalibur, and Rexaura should be the same by lore. Example of a storm feat being 100% combat applicable.

What are you suggesting we consider storm feats as? As if they moved the clouds themselves? That's much worse of an assumption. The only thing combat applicable about the rexbolt is the lightning bolt (though I haven't played fire emblem so idk). What was calced was CAPE.

Can we at least agree that cooling doesnt automatically affect ANY other stat or cannot act as a supporting feat?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

As if they moved the clouds themselves? That's much worse of an assumption.

iirc the baseline assumption was explicitly agreed to not be KE by our calc team.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

@Jaakubb, again; those words are approaching overwhelming amounts of headcanon for plenty of verses. Plenty of characters do use their own power to form thunder storms. Example being this. It is an S-Rank Tome that can only be wielded by S-Class Thunder Magic users as those weaker aren't powerful enough to use it. And it's consistent with various C rank to B rank tomes getting 8-A to 7-C results plus other S Rank tomes like Rexflame, Rexcalibur, and Rexaura should be the same by lore. Example of a storm feat being 100% combat applicable.

It's the bolt itself that deals damage, though.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Jaakubb & TGoP, it's the Rex Bolt Tome that does the full feat. How else would you describe being able to form clouds in an area with no humidity; it was calculated using CAPE yes. Which Executer N0 went in full detail about the method being solid. It's still the full energy of the calculation being generated by the tome each and every time it's caster. The Tome also enhances to power of the caster just by holding it, who can also trade blows with other enemies using similar tomes. Soren and Ilyana can also overpower someone using the Rex Bolt using a much more basic Wind Tome, meaning they scale to it in general. The lightning bolt also strikes with enough force to disperse the same giant storm cloud that generated it; so there is Tier 7 force behind it as well. And especially when they use Rexcalibur and Rex Bolt respectively. They can also trade blows with other S Class swordsmen.

@Dargoo effecting the planet's atmosphere was a casual spell using a very small fraction of the Black mage's power. And the same Black mage used up a lot of magic to enhance the striking strength of a Warrior, which said Warrior than kills a powerful God who was initially deemed unstoppable even amongst other gods with powers capable of effecting the whole planet.

Note, I also said I don't entirely disagree with you that there should be some distinction between force and heat, and I'm also glad that you decided to concede with cooling and heating being interchangeable with each other for reasons mentioned above. Obviously, for various FPS and War Movie verses for instance, there are plenty of characters who can survive 9-A punches just fine, but gets their face melted off by Wall level plasma rifles. And there are characters/vehicles that withstand 9-A plasma rifles without completely melting/getting vaporized; who get obliterated by Wall level grenades and rockets. Those are obvious examples of distinctions. But as DonTalk said, most verses that have a heavily universal power source that's often got a fancy name. Many powers are often treated 1 to 1; at least mostly.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

What if clouds in Fire Emblem are fragile? Also, while this feat in general has some scaling, for other verses, it could be that making clouds is just an efficient use of power.

 

[Jaakubb]

@Jaakubb & TGoP, it's the Rex Bolt Tome that does the full feat. How else would you describe being able to form clouds in an area with no humidity; it was calculated using CAPE yes. Which Executer N0 went in full detail about the method being solid. It's still the full energy of the calculation being generated by the tome each and every time it's caster. The Tome also enhances to power of the caster just by holding it, who can also trade blows with other enemies using similar tomes. Soren and Ilyana can also overpower someone using the Rex Bolt using a much more basic Wind Tome, meaning they scale to it in general. The lightning bolt also strikes with enough force to disperse the same giant storm cloud that generated it; so there is Tier 7 force behind it as well. And especially when they use Rexcalibur and Rex Bolt respectively. They can also trade blows with other S Class swordsmen.

I don't know the specifics of this feat, and I honestly don't care to. If the lightning bolt dispersed the clouds with it's own energy, then fine, that's a kinetic energy feat. It's pushing the clouds away, and that energy could be focused onto a character. However, this would be the exception, not the norm. The default assumption is that a storm is just a storm unless otherwise stated.

Again, can we at least agree that freezing won't affect any other stats at all? And don't bring up the "universal energy source" argument because that literally has nothing to do with my argument. I'm fine with listing it as AP though, just don't scale it to anything.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

But as DonTalk said, most verses that have a heavily universal power source that's often got a fancy name. Many powers are often treated 1 to 1; at least mostly.

Okay, so I feel like I should restate my issues with 'universal power source, everything translates, physics be damned' approach.

So let's assume that the fictional energy source is functionally similar and acts similar to RL energy. In RL, heat and force are not interchangeable, so if we're treating this mystic force like it's RL energy heat and force still can't be interchangeable. If for kicks and giggles we're saying we want to translate them anyways, then our calc system doesn't operate under RL physics, and we're just using physics whenever it's convenient for higher statistics.

If we aren't treating the mana like it's RL energy, then energy values are meaningless in regards to mana values. I can think of plenty of verses where something that should take more energy takes less mana than something that takes less energy. Heck, there's even verses where mana and magic explicitly violate physics in ways that could make amping physical strikes to Tier 8 take more mana than creating a Tier 7 storm.

The argument isn't valid no matter what standard we use, unless we actively violate our own standards. I'll mention this more clearly, but using your and DontTalk's logic, there's kind of nothing from stopping us from saying that despite speed and force being two fundamentally different things in physics, if the speed enhancement and the striking enhancement has the same power source, we can use kinetic energy to backtrack to speed, something we explicitly ban on this site. The same goes for Lifting Strength and any other statistics we currently list separately even with the same power source involved. Which is why I mentioned initially that our site doesn't translate fundamentally different forces already - just look at how we treat speed.

 

[Andytrenom]

" there's kind of nothing from stopping us from saying that despite speed and force being two fundamentally different things in physics, if the speed enhancement and the striking enhancement has the same power source, we can use kinetic energy to backtrack to speed, "

I feel this statement is kinda flawed. You can calculate speed from KE under real life science, the only reason we can't for our ratings is because the relation isn't always reliable in a fictional context, which can lead to faulty statistics not supported by the actual work. As far as I can tell that is a completely different situation to what we're dealing with here, which is about heat and KE not being equatable in science to begin with.

Leaving that aside though, I'm fine with keeping heat and KE feats separate, at least as a default assumption.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@God of Procrastination are you trolling? Because that's like saying the piece of concrete that Super used to block Darkseid's Omega Beams is super durable rather than it just being PIS + Superman's pushing strength. Or that verses with planet busters take place on a fragile planet

@Jaakubb, that's pretty much how every JRPG treats spam able techniques. It's often like the spell effects the whether, and there's this shock wave attacking the enemy that dissipates the storm or environmental effect when the attack is over. And two or more characters can spam the same ability back and forth. Plenty of Thunder God such as Raiden, or characters who are literally living storms. So actually, there appear to "Exceptions" outnumbering the "Norms" if we went by that.

@Dargoo, actually, thermal energy is the kinetic energy of the atoms in molecules in an object. Plus, energy cannot be created or destroyed and only transferred. In order for movement to happen, there needs to be thermal energy being cycled or transferred to generate kinetic energy. It may not transfer linearly, but it's still interchangeable regarding the existing energy in the universe.

Also, the difference between fictional energy and RL energy is because we ourselves are not psychics, Ki manipulators, Energy Benders, ect IRL. We do not fully control how thermal energy or kinetic energy work, so we don't always see or feel it as linear. But the laws of nature do cycle it interchangeably. But when an energy bender does the work, they literally become the laws of nature and the driving force behind it all.

As for the Mana example, the problems still come from Gameplay balancing as we as Destructive Capacity Vs Attack Potency and many other things. Just because a Sword strike calculated at Tier 8, it doesn't make it locked at Tier 8. Especially if they harm or killed a Tier 7 or above character. Mana is another example of an endurance; some characters have infinite mana/MP and can spam their storm attacks or stack power ups for physical strikes indefinitely, so... High 3-A? Anyway, the amount of MP/Mana required for the spell isn't the primary point, but the fact is them being able to perform the feat(s) it in the first place is what matters. And the fact that those same feats are spammable is more than enough reason to treat it as a casual AP feat. A Tier 9/8 mage wouldn't even be close to producing a full storm cloud; at best he could just make a mini cloud that's not too far above their heads. It takes a Tier 7 or above mage to make a true storm cloud in the high skies or blizzard.

The lifting strength Vs Striking Strength is false equivalency. That's not interchangeable IRL; there are plenty of large animals that carry a massive load, but don't kick hard. Plus, Bruce Lee himself proved that lifting strength =/= striking strength. One just needs a lot of muscle while the other is a fast paced technique. As for Speed Vs AP/Calc Stacking, that's a different issue. We're comparing AP to AP here, but now you're comparing AP to Speed. Well first of all, KE and speed aren't interchangeable per say. It's speed combined with weight that determines KE. But anyway, it's often because there are plenty of verses far weaker characters are a lot faster than stronger characters; and stuff like FTL speed attacks having KE. And some verses have almost no speed feats but excellent tier feats as vice versa.

For durability, since durability isn't even a linear concept neither in IRL nor in fiction; and especially not IRL. There is a massive difference between pressure resistance and heat capacity/melting point/boiling point. Obviously, we can't make distinctions to great; such as a 5-B character being assumed to be able to die from house fire is plain stupid of course. Stuff like smashing a vehicle being a 9-B feat and melting a vehicle being an 8-C feat is common knowledge. And various characters have to some extent have more resistance to one over the other. But at the same time, there's a limit to how much we can bridge gaps in our system.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

You can calculate speed from KE under real life science, the only reason we can't for our ratings is because the relation isn't always reliable in a fictional context, which can lead to faulty statistics not supported by the actual work. As far as I can tell that is a completely different situation to what we're dealing with here, which is about heat and KE not being equatable in science to begin with.

Except I wasn't talking about calculating speed from KE. I was talking about 'scaling' energy to speed through a 'shared power source', which is the issue this kind of logic presents.

For example, getting a joules value from a spell, then saying that since the speedboosting magic has the same energy source of that spell, they can increase their speed with the same energy as their physical strikes, heat attacks, whatever.

Even if you were right on my argument though, this doesn't really change anything else I said in that post.

While I'm glad you're reading up on the topic, you should have continued to read in extremely basic thermodynamics then, as immediately after it's established that everything's energy in some form, there's fundamental differences in the way heat and work/force transfer it. Which is why they aren't equatable, as while they can be both measured in energy, they transfer it in fundamentally different ways.

As for the Mana example, the problems still come from Gameplay balancing as we as Destructive Capacity Vs Attack Potency and many other things. Just because a Sword strike calculated at Tier 8, it doesn't make it locked at Tier 8.

Especially if they harm or killed a Tier 7 or above character.
If it was calculated at a certain tier, the only way it isn't that tier is if the material was misinterpreted or there was flaws in the calculation itself. If the character is more consistently in a tier above that, then we simply don't consider the feat as a lower-end showing. I feel like you're aware that characters don't need to constantly be preforming Tier Whatever feats during all combat scenarios.

Mana is another example of an endurance; some characters have infinite mana/MP and can spam their storm attacks or stack power ups for physical strikes indefinitely, so... High 3-A?
I don't know what this means in the context of this debate.

If you're implying that having access to an infinite pool of mana makes one High 3-A, I feel like you've forgotten the many, many threads where it was determined that you need to be capable of effectively using infinite energy in a single attack, see Johnny Joestar as a big example of this.

Anyway, the amount of MP/Mana required for the spell isn't the primary point, but the fact is them being able to perform the feat(s) it in the first place is what matters.
It is your primary point, and I'm not sure why you're pretending it isn't. It's the basis for scaling in various magic-based verses like Overlord currently, heck.

Your argument can't even exist without considering the amount of mana. If you're conceding that mana values don't correlate to energy values, you can't compare different kinds of feats or scale different kinds of feats as the only in-verse metric is the amount of mana they take. So like I said before, nothing says that a Tier 9 punch enhancement can't be more mana-intensive than a Tier 7 storm creation.

So they can perform the storm creation, but since in some verses mana doesn't correlate to energy, you can't say that they can pump the same 'energy' into their punch enhancements since it doesn't operate on energy to begin with.

And the fact that those same feats are spammable is more than enough reason to treat it as a casual AP feat. A Tier 9/8 mage wouldn't even be close to producing a full storm cloud; at best he could just make a mini cloud that's not too far above their heads. It takes a Tier 7 or above mage to make a true storm cloud in the high skies or blizzard.
Sounds more like a casual Environmental Destruction feat, but I guess that's listed on AP.

The lifting strength Vs Striking Strength is false equivalency. That's not interchangeable IRL; there are plenty of large animals that carry a massive load, but don't kick hard.
There is no correlation between heat resistance and blunt force resistance in physical materials.

There is no correlation between one's capability to output heat and one's capability to output physical force.

The only correlation our standard operates on is that they all involve the exchange of energy. Lifting Strength and Striking Strength both involve an exchange of energy, so if they share a power source, our system says they must scale like all the other unrelated forces we already scale.

My whole point is that none of these are interchangeable IRL outside of the measurement of energy, and you've just proved it wonderfully.

As for Speed Vs AP/Calc Stacking, that's a different issue. We're comparing AP to AP here, but now you're comparing AP to Speed.
You're comparing blunt force to heat, which are actually less relatable than blunt force and speed. Why is our system fine with conflating blunt force and heat but not blunt force and speed?

Well first of all, KE and speed aren't interchangeable per say. It's speed combined with weight that determines KE.
Heat and force aren't interchangeable either. This is my whole point.

And I'm sure we can come up with something. If the mage is enhancing their speed, we know their mass, so we can just say they're pumping X Tier energy into their speed, and then we backtrack kinetic energy. Obviously this is stupid and we shouldn't do it, but it's functionally what we're doing with heat in these verses.

(EDIT): Just to point out in case it isn't extremely obvious: I don't actually want us scaling Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, Speed, etc. I'm pointing out how easily our systems' logic lets us scale them with how it currently treats heat.

 

[Andytrenom]

" if the speed enhancement and the striking enhancement has the same power source, we can use kinetic energy to backtrack to speed, something we explicitly ban on this site."

This is you not talking about calculating speed from KE?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

" if the speed enhancement and the striking enhancement has the same power source, we can use kinetic energy to backtrack to speed, something we explicitly ban on this site."
This is you not talking about calculating speed from KE?

My point was on the scaling, whose logic would justify us doing stuff like that. Calculating speed from KE would be taking an objective feat and effectively calc-stacking on it to get a speed rating from a kinetic energy rating, while what I'm talking about would be taking something like a storm calc's rating, and 'scaling' it to speed if the person has a speed boost with a 'shared power source'. Obviously this is stupid, my point is that equating speed to heat is just as problematic as equating force to heat, or other completely unrelated statistics. I also feel like this is more just trying to point out that I technically mentioned it in my post and ignoring practically everything else I posted around it explaining what I had a problem with, which isn't really adding anything meaningful to the coversation, if I might add.

I guess I could have worded it better, although I thought I clarified pretty well when I followed up on your post.

 

[Andytrenom]

That's actually what I first presumed your point was, but it didn't make much sense to me so I had reconsidered

If your are trying to suggest that saying "he generates this much energy with heat attacks, so he can generate the same energy with physical attacks" is as absurd as saying "he can generate this much energy with attacks so he can run at this speed" then no, one is assuming he can output the same level of energy in more than one form, while the other is directly equating one value to another not measured with the same dimensions without any kind of calculation, which doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint

If I am honest, this just feels like you're trying to make a situation sound as stupid as possible by bringing in faulty comparisons

 

[Andytrenom]

And if you're serious about your claim that logic like this will imply scaling speed to things like storm feats, then I don't see that either

How do you even translate AP to speed without a calculations? Cause that seems like it will always just amount to meaningless statements like "10 megatons is mach 20" or something, which I would love to see anyone justify as being similar to scaling different attacks to the same AP

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Dargoo, just a minor note for now; the High 3-A example was just a joke. I know full well that pool of energy or having a battery with energy inside you isn't AP. And that energy being harness into one technique is what AP is. Infinite pool of energy is simply limitless stamina. I'll address the rest later. But Andy did give a good explanation regarding the comparisons.

 

[Jaakubb]

@Jaakubb, that's pretty much how every JRPG treats spam able techniques. It's often like the spell effects the whether, and there's this shock wave attacking the enemy that dissipates the storm or environmental effect when the attack is over. And two or more characters can spam the same ability back and forth. Plenty of Thunder God such as Raiden, or characters who are literally living storms. So actually, there appear to "Exceptions" outnumbering the "Norms" if we went by that.

Fine then! For those feats specifically, when a storm is dispersed because of the character's kinetic energy, like when all might punched so hard that he directly provided the energy for a storm, use the kinetic energy! But unless otherwise stated, storms are just normal storms! You keep saying that "pretty much every storm feat is like this" but youre not giving any evidence. For every example you can give of a kinetic energy storm feat, i could give you multiple counterexamples.
Also freezing feats are still stupid.

I'm not quite sure what dargoo is trying to argue, but I think hes absolutely right that mana requirement of a spell has no strict proportional relationship to energy released by the spell. A simple healing spell could cost more than a spell that could destroy a boulder or something.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If I am honest, this just feels like you're trying to make a situation sound as stupid as possible by bringing in faulty comparisons

DDM and many others here have only established that heat and force both operate on an exchange of energy. I feel like you're aware that speed, and most everything else in the universe also operates on that exchange. My whole point was that comparing heat and force based on only that shared property is stupid, I'm not trying to make it sound stupid for no reason at all.

> while the other is directly equating one value to another not measured with the same dimensions without any kind of calculation, which doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint

To be entirely fair, we actually do that for force-based attacks, as we automatically convert them to joules so they can be measured by our system despite them "not [being] measured with the same dimensions". So it's something we already sort of do with force and heat.

I'm not saying we shouldn't measure physical attacks in joules, but I'm more saying that this point doesn't magically un-do my comparison.

Heck, you already agree that we shouldn't translate heat and force by default. Forcing a translation based off of a shared power source really isn't any better than forcing a translation for no reason whatsoever; it's literally the same arguments being used to scale them that we debunked in the previous threads.

Honestly, if we're just going to establish a bunch of loopholes to make these kinds of revisions ultimately meaningless agai, I'd rather us just not have this applied at all.

 

[Andytrenom]

"To be entirely fair, we actually do that for force-based attacks, as we automatically convert them to joules so they can be measured by our system despite them "not [being] measured with the same dimensions". So it's something we already sort of do with force and heat."

I'm pretty sure we just calculate those feats as work, which is measured in joules, if we were just arbitrarily translating force to an energy value then that would obviously be dumb. I was also under the impression that we were just using "force" in this thread for convenience sake to refer to more physical and impact based forms of AP, instead of its exact definition. If we aren't I'll just use "work" from now on

"I'm not saying we shouldn't measure physical attacks in joules, but I'm more saying that this point doesn't magically un-do my comparison"

It does if your comparison involves getting m/s out of joules directly without a calculation. It's impossible and nonsensical to do that and while there is a way of deriving speed from energy that we prohibit, it's for its own reasons that don't have much relevance to this matter

Unless you want to argue our methods for calculating energy from force is wrong or have the same problems as calculating speed from energy, I still find your comparison to speed and AP to be very flimsy

"Heck, you... in the previous threads."

Note that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your assertions, it's just this particular argument that's rubbing me the wrong way

it's also just heat feats that I'm uncertain on whether they can be scaled via the universal power source thing or not, freezing feats I'm willing to agree don't scale on account of not being an output of energy

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Note that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your assertions, it's just this particular argument that's rubbing me the wrong way"

In which case I don't really see the benefit in pursuing this argument too much then. I'm at least glad that you agree with my core POV, although I wish I could have expressed it better to you.

"it's also just heat feats that I'm uncertain on whether they can be scaled via the universal power source thing or not"

Would you say that it's at least unreliable to do it by default when we have nothing else besides a shared power source?

 

[Spinoirr]

If a character freezes something and then melts it and they both get the same tier. Then should we say something like "they froze and then vaporized "blank'"

 

[Andytrenom]

I guess. Maybe it should be implied that they are equally proficient with both heat and force based attacks?

 

[Jaakubb]

If a character freezes something and then melts it and they both get the same tier. Then should we say something like "they froze and then vaporized "blank'"

Freezing isnt a valid feat though. Only the melting.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Jaakubb and @Dargoo I never said "All storms feats are like this" I simply said we can't just ignore every storm feat in existence and just assume it isn't combat applicable. It's heavily case by case and we literally went over that discussion back in 2018. However, most RPG characters and fighting game characters do indeed use the storms in a combat applicable manner. If a Shaman was "Praying to the gods to alter the storms", then it wouldn't be combat applicable. But when the God of Thunder does it, it's usually combat applicable. Also, as for the MP example, I said it's case by case but game play balancing stuff should be ignored. A White mage that heals/revives the party indefinitely would make every RPG in existence too easy. Which is why there is stamina consumption. A better example would be simply comparing attacks to other attacks; and/or using the lore. Like a storm spell being a mid level spell with low MP consumption, and Meteor also being a mid level spell with an 8-A/7-C result and similar MP consumption. And then Ultima being the strongest magic tome in the verse, stating that "It's so powerful, no mere mortal could wield without destroying themselves and possibly the entire world" being wielded by the "Protagonist who's much stronger than any human". There's no reason for Ultima to have tier rating just being higher than the highest calculation. Rather than relying heavily on game mechanics and knit picks, I just use some details into consideration, but go by the lore. The primary point is that if a mere fraction of someone's power can casually do feats of a certain teir, there's no reason to assume the same character going all out can do something equal to or greater.

Anyway, Kaltais, Xulrev, Triforce, and Ugarik already explained above that freezing/cooling is indeed identical to heating but in reverse. You can't just ignore them entirely. The science is that thermal energy is actually the natural kinetic energy flow of the particles inside an object. It requires Kinetic energy to raise or lower the speed of an object. Let's say a 2000 kg object was drifting through outer space at 1000 m/s. The natural KE is 0.5 * 2000 * 1000^2 = 1 Gigajoule. Doubling the speed, which of course requires quadrupling the KE, requires striking it with 3 Gigajoules to get 4 Gigajoules. While at the same time, halving its speed requires quartering the KE, or striking it with 750 Megajoules. Or stopping it entirely requires striking or pushing 1 Gigajoule or striking it even harder can make it drift the opposite direction. Basically, heating is the same as the former while cooling is the same as the latter. For the idea of "Using your own energy source/Ki sort of thing to heat or cool objects". Just like heating is basically telekinetically pushing the particles to move faster, cooling is essentially telekinetically pulling the particles to slow down. So in other words cooling is just as combat applicable as heating. Freezing an object that's Quintillions of degrees all the way down to Sub-Zero temperatures is the same feat as heating a sub-zero temperature all the way up to Quintillions of degrees Celsius.

Now, I do agree that there could be some distinction between heat and force based attacks, but it's heavily case by case as what's said numerous times. DontTalk looking at his user page said he was going to be quite busy, but I still think he's spot on. Star Wars characters are a perfect example of characters who can use their Force Powers to enhanced their own physical strength, thus scaling their striking strength and durability to their telekinesis. It's the same thing Chakra/Ki/Magic/Reishi(What ever the hell the writers what to call it) feats using Thermal energy and Kinetic Energy. Verses with a linear power level system are exactly that. So stuff like Bleach isn't going to be having some massive downgrades just because they scale from storm feats. Or everyone in Killer Instinct is 6-C scaling from a lake freezing feat; not going to budge anytime soon.

Anyway, given how circular this argument is and how many times threads like this are constantly being made, I honestly agree with Dargoo on one thing that we're really not going to get very far at this rate, nor will many verses be effected.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Since DDM is dropping the argument, and DontTalk is too busy to speak on significant calculation/feat interpretation changes, I guess we can take a solid vote on the matter.

From what I understand, we're already conclusive on the basic assumption being that heat and force cannot scale; it's just that the primary exception DontTalk is suggesting, that if heat-based and force-based attacks have the same power source they can scale, is contentious at the moment.

So on the matter of that exception, I belive it's:

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino

Nay: Dargoo, Andy

Although the vast majority of staff who commented on this thread and the previous thread hasn't spoken on the matter, so I'll contact them.

 

[DMUA]

I still stand by Don'tTalk's stance

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There was another thread discussing the other argument on the "Heat Vs AP" thread, in which Bambu still pretty much agrees with the same thing DontTalk said as well.

 

[Jaakubb]

@Jaakubb and @Dargoo I never said "All storms feats are like this" I simply said we can't just ignore every storm feat in existence and just assume it isn't combat applicable. It's heavily case by case and we literally went over that discussion back in 2018.

I never said we should ignore them all. I'm saying that a storm feat isn't valid simply by virtue of being a storm feat. Some still apply.

But when the God of Thunder does it, it's usually combat applicable

I disagree. Storm feats should only be considered combat applicable when the character directly produces the kinetic energy of the storm, like with all might's detroit smash. Most storms are just a chain reaction instigated by cooling.

Also could you please address my points on freezing instead of retreating back into the exact same argument? That's not how cooling works. In fiction, they are either using "energy telekinesis" or using a refrigerant. Give me a more reasonable interpretation. For reference, using a refrigerant does make the vibration of the particles decrease, decreasing the heat, and it has already been established that using a refrigerant does not require any outside energy source.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It doesn't sound like you read the next part of the argument. About them telekinetically slowing down the atoms and molecules in the object by forcing them to slow down. Even Dargoo finally conceded with separating heat Vs cooling. I also explained the scientific details so I don't need to repeat that part.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

There was another thread discussing the other argument on the "Heat Vs AP" thread, in which Bambu still pretty much agrees with the same thing DontTalk said as well.

Bambu was commenting on me trying to remove heat and freezing altogether from AP, which I have stopped doing. I've informed him of this more recent discussion although he seems disinterested in commenting again.

 

[Jaakubb]

It doesn't sound like you read the next part of the argument. About them telekinetically slowing down the atoms and molecules in the object by forcing them to slow down. Even Dargoo finally conceded with separating heat Vs cooling. I also explained the scientific details so I don't need to repeat that part.

So there are two interpretations for cooling:

They are telekinetically slowing each particle

They are using "energy telekinesis" to move the energy itself (and yes, energy is a thing that moves, take photons for an example).

Why is the first more reasonable than the second? They are equally probable and due to occam's razor we choose the interpretation that has the least implications (the second).

@Dargoo Faust You changed your mind on cooling feats? Or do you think they don't scale but are still able to be listed as AP? Because I agree with that.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino, DMUA

Nay: Dargoo, Andy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's also the scientific detail of thermal energy being the natural flow of atoms and molecules in the atmosphere, on which speeding it up or slowing it down whether speeding up or slowing it down to either an increase or decrease in KE requires some degree of KE, thus an AP feat.

@Jaakubb, Dargoo changes his mind on separating heating feats from cooling feats, as they're both listed under AP. He just doesn't think either heat nor cold should scale to striking strength or durability.

 

[Jaakubb]

There's also the scientific detail of thermal energy being the natural flow of atoms and molecules in the atmosphere, on which speeding it up or slowing it down whether speeding up or slowing it down to either an increase or decrease in KE requires some degree of KE, thus an AP feat.

You still haven't proven why the first interpretation is more reasonable than the second.

Andytrenom thinks that freezing feats shouldn't scale to anything because it has no energy output for the reasons others and I made earlier (Andytrenom is kinda based?ƒÿ¿)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Kep has informed me off-site that he votes Nay.

Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Spino, DMUA

Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep