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Four Knights of the Apocalypse/Nanatsu no Taizai Main Discussion Thread

ByAsura said:
We do.
Click to expand...
Vessel Tarmiel = 3.28 Teratons (Small Country level)

Could 1C Estarossa Downscale from Vessels Sariel & Tarmiel to Baseline Low 6-B?
1C Estarossa (Was overwhelmed when Vessel Sariel & Tarmiel started using their Graces, though he was able to withstand and power through their Ark blasts)

2C Estarossa (Could contend with Vessel Sariel & Tarmiel, he could harm them and vice versa they could harm him)

3C Estarossa (Overwhelmed Vessel Sariel & Tarmiel at the same time, though their Vessels were still able to cut through Estarossa's body)

Berserk 3C Estarossa (Took on King, Derieri, True Forms Sariel & Tarmiel at same time, though the fight's inconclusive because of the memories of Mael returning stopping the fighting)

3C Mael (Took on King, and True Forms Sariel & Tarmiel at the same time, they were only able to pin him down through teamwork)

4C Mael (One Shot True Forms Sariel & Tarmiel with a stray beam during his cocoon phase, though their bodies were already beginning to disappear)
Click to expand...
 
ByAsura said:
It genuinely feels like you don't actually read arguments.

Yes, and yes.

Assuming all of the potential amps are applicable. I've rounded off the ratings.
  • Post-Revival Base Meliodas = 1.64 Teratons (Small Country level)
  • Vessel Tarmiel = 3.28 Teratons (Small Country level)
  • Post-Revival 2nd Mark = 6.56 Teratons (Small Country level+)
  • Post-Revival Assault Mode = 13.12 Teratons (Country level)
  • True Ludoshel = 26.24 Teratons (Country level)
  • Elizabeth = 52.48 Teratons (Country level)
  • Post-Purgatory 2nd Mark = 210 Teratons (Large Country level)
  • Post-Purgatory Assault Mode/100% Deities = 420 Teratons (Large Country level)
  • Britannia DK = 1.26 Petatons (Continent level)
I'll probably end up giving some small upscales, like giving Elizabeth a +, but I think it's time to stop bass boosting these characters with scaling. It's already kind of unbelievable that Elizabeth is 8x stronger than Tarmiel and Sariel's True Forms and 100% DK is 64x stronger than them.
Click to expand...
Speed would be?
 
ByAsura said:
1C Estarossa/Post-Revival Mel is already worth 1/2 of each Archangel's vessel.
Click to expand...
Oh, so he's already worth 1.64 Teratons with 1C.

So, it's

1C Estarossa = 1.64 Teratons.

2C Estarossa = 3.28 Teratons. (portrayed as relative to Vessels Sariel & Tarmiel)

3C Estarossa/Berserk/Mael = 6.56 Teratons. (could possibly upscale to Baseline Country Level, 7 Teratons, due to 3C being portrayed as stronger than True Forms Sariel & Tarmiel)

4C Mael = At Least 6.56 Teratons or Upscale to 7 Teratons, or scale above 7 Teratons if 3C Mael can Upscale to Baseline Country Level.
 
OneBleachHurricane said:
4C Mael = At Least 6.56 Teratons or Upscale to 7 Teratons, or scale above 7 Teratons if 3C Mael can Upscale to Baseline Country Level.
Click to expand...
4C Mael (200k +) is far more powerful than Assault Mode Meliodas, so it's far in excess of 13.12 teratons.

If the Assault Mode multiplier isn't accepted, it'd be in that range.
speedster352 said:
Why not?
Click to expand...
We've had this discussion 100 million times before.

The form of DK isn't ever specified.
 
ByAsura said:
4C Mael (200k +) is far more powerful than Assault Mode Meliodas, so it's far in excess of 13.12 teratons.

If the Assault Mode multiplier isn't accepted, it'd be in that range.

We've had this discussion 100 million times before.

The form of DK isn't ever specified.
Click to expand...
I thought the assault mode multiplier was accepted. Yeah, but by default, he would scale above DK Britannia.
 
Pretty much none of the multipliers are technically accepted yet.

No he wouldn't. Demon King has numerous forms.
 
ByAsura said:
4C Mael (200k +) is far more powerful than Assault Mode Meliodas, so it's far in excess of 13.12 teratons.

If the Assault Mode multiplier isn't accepted, it'd be in that range.
Click to expand...
Forgot about the Power Levels.

But doesn't True Form Ludoshel have a Power Level of 201,000?

So could 4C Mael Scale/Downscale from True Form Ludoshel? Or maybe as a "Likely Higher" rating if you don't think it's valid?

6-B (Far stronger than Post-Revival Assault Mode Meliodas who has a Power Level of 142,000.), Likely Higher (Has a Power Level of at least 200,000 which is close to True Form Ludoshel's Power Level of 201,000.)

And is 3C Mael Upscaling to Baseline 6-B fine?
 
ByAsura said:
Vessel Ludoshel (201k) already scales to 4C and Assault Mode.
Click to expand...
Almost all of the examples of supposed inconsistency you pointed out can be explained: 1:39 - Just because Base Galand was relative in strength to Unsealed Base Meliodas doesn't mean Meliodas beating him up is an inconsistency. When Meliodas appeared, Galand was not expecting him to have gotten that much stronger than when they fought in Camelot. So the first hit Meliodas landed caught Galand off-guard. The following hits were the result of Meliodas being more skilled, agile and/or faster than Galand, as power levels are meant to represent power, not necessarily speed. An example of this is when some of the commandments fought Sariel and Tarmiel in the Fairy King's forest. The two archangels have power levels over 88k in a vessel (as confirmed by Sariel when they fought Post-Truth Estarossa) yet the highest power level of the commandments there was Monspeet's 53k. Still, they could tag the archangels (although it should be noted that Galand's attack on Tarmiel was a sneak attack from behind) despite the difference in power levels, indicating that power levels don't represent speed. Back to the Meliodas vs Galand fight, Meliodas was not able to one shot Galand. He had to land multiple hits and cuts on him before Galand went down. This is consistent with them being somewhat relative in strength and possibly durability. There's nothing about their fight that's blatantly inconsistent with their power levels as Meliodas didn't one shot Galand but landed many hits due to superior skill and speed. 1:57 - Excuse me? When was it stated that Lostvayne amps Meliodas's strength? All it was shown to be able to do was let Meliodas clone himself which lets him use Full Counter on an attack consecutive times. As for Meliodas vs Derieri, he was already somewhat fatigued before she started throwing punches. Before that, Meliodas had fought Gloxinia and Drole and had his arm cut off by Zeldris. Derieri's first attack was also from behind, so blocking was the obvious action in that circumstance. Their strength levels were relative so her landing over 50 hits on Meliodas' arms would obviously cause a lot of damage. Him being knocked out of demon mark isn't too strange either because...over 50 hits from someone with relative strength. 2:14 - ????? Zeldris isn't that much weaker than Derieri physically. His strength level is 47,200. Hers is 48,000. Wow, what a huge difference... Him being closer in strength to Galand than Meliodas is false. Galand in base has 24k strength and at most 38k in Critical Over, as his spirit is 2k. Unsealed demon mark Meliodas has 50k strength. What is 47.2 closer to: 38 or 50? You tell me... Zeldris was 94.4% as strong as Meliodas physically at that point. It's close enough for him to be able to cut off Meliodas' arm with a clean slash. Nothing inconsistent about that. As for how he was able to land it, once again, power levels are meant to represent power, not necessarily speed. And Zeldris has feats which imply he's faster than his power level would suggest. He matched 201k Ludociel in swordsmanship (although it should be noted that most of Ludociel's power is magic, not strength, as implied by King in chapter 203) while in his 61k small demon mark state. He was also able to fight with 1 spirit spear of a magically exhausted Full Wings King from a distance. So him being faster than 56k Unsealed demon mark Meliodas is not inconsistent. 2:39 - Once again, power levels represent power, not durability or speed. Gloxinia may not be able to throw strong punches but him being able to survive really strong blows is not made impossible by his power level. He could have a magic defensive force field passively surrounding his body. Such force fields have been displayed in the series, such as when Ludociel blocked Monspeet's attack in chapter 206 and the Original Demon's attacks in chapter 297. I'm not objectively claiming that Gloxinia has a similar passive forcefield, but it is a possible explaination for how he was able to survive Meliodas' attack, which he did take a lot of damage from anyway. Galand getting dented isn't inconsistent as he took multiple full powered punches from Meliodas who was stronger than Galand even if not by that much. 3:01 - It was a chokehold. Monspeet waited until Estarossa held him in such a position that when they were swapped, Monspeet would be able to restrain Estarossa. If you look closely at that scene, Estarossa wasn't able to grab Monspeet's arms which is why he couldn't just remove them and escape the choke. 3:17 - Power levels don't necessarily represent durability all the time. They are POWER levels not DURABILITY or SPEED levels. And the strength portion of someone's power level is suppossed to represent how strong they can hit with physical attacks, not necessarily how durable they are. 4:05 - ????? When was it stated that you need a comparable magic level to someone in order to tank their magical attacks??? Power levels, and I'm saying this yet again, are gauges of a character's power, so their magic levels are gauges of how powerful their magic is. However, there's nothing which states that you can't tank or break through a magic attack if you have comparable or superior strength to the magic attack. Meliodas had 50k strength and Gloxinia and Drole had 47k and 14k magic respectively. So him being able to tank and blow through their attacks isn't inconsistent. Magic in NNT is not spiritual pressure in Bleach. It was never stated that you need a comparable or higher magic level to tank a magic attack from someone. As for why Drole used Heavy Metal to defend against Meliodas' hellblaze attack, it is implied that Drole can read others' power levels. The device Hawk uses is called Balor's (An alias of Drole) Magical Eye in reference to Drole's ability to read other's level of power and thoughts. In chapter 169, it's implied that Drole's eye can't read Meliodas which is why he didn't realize Meliodas' attack was weaker than his strength. He played it safe by activating Heavy Metal as 3000 years ago, when Drole and Gloxinia knew Meliodas, he had much stronger magic than during the Great Fight Festival, being able to repel Mael's Sunshine with his darkness back in the day. Also, you have to consider two other things: 1. It was nighttime, meaning Meliodas' magic was amped because he's a demon. Gloxinia and Drole likely didn't get such amps, as they are a fairy and a giant who can only use minimal power of darkness granted to them by their commandments, as shown when Drole created helicopter-like wings to fly in chapter 109. However, the magic they use in battle is their giant and fairy magic which has nothing to do with demon magic, so there's no reason to assume it would be amped during the night like Meliodas' demon magic. 2. Drole and Gloxinia were weakened by Escanor's surprise attack. This is something you seem to ignore in this entire video. Escanor's power level when he activated Rhitta was not 28,800. That was his power level when he went into his pseudo-transformation. But after that, he called Rhitta and got even stronger by accessing the heat stored in the axe. Keep in mind that when Chandler used True Night and Escanor reached Rhitta to fight under that condition, he was able to somewhat block attacks from the Original Demon when defending Merlin. Not something a 28.8k character would be able to do. So when Escanor made the attack against Gloxinia and Drole, his power level has to have been comparable to when he fought the OG Demon, which is at the very least over 100k. And considering that Drole and Gloxinia were not on their guard, they were certainly weakened from the attack, at least temporarily. This is also supported by Meliodas stating he was waiting for this opportunity when he went to fight them in chapter 171. He even states that he wouldn't be able to beat them if he attacked them head-on before Escanor's surprise attack. Them being weakened, even temporarily, explains why Meliodas was able to get the upper hand against Drole before going into demon mark, something you call an inconsistency later on in the video. 4:37 - Once again, when is it stated that you need a comparable or higher magic level to tank magic attacks??? Magic attacks are still attacks. There's no reason why they can't be tanked with physical durability. 4:48 - Meliodas could have resisted it with willpower. As a high rank demon, he already has resistance to soul rip which is why Melascula needed to wait for him to get seriously injured and incapacitated before she tried anything. She also said in chapter 176 that removing his soul was easy only because he couldn't move. And in the end, he was only able to resist her soul rip for just a few seconds. Being able to delay her spell with his willpower isn't out of the question, considering he already had a degree of resistance. Why you assumed Meliodas' attempt to resist Melascula's spell had anything to do with his magic level which only measures how strong his magical attacks are, I have no idea. 4:58 - Merlin's original power level of 4,710 is clearly not her true power. It was a reading of her suppressed state in chapter 107 in which she had no reason to display her true magic with Infinity. 5:10 - King wasn't going all out against Meliodas at that time and was only fighting him with a stick. 5:45 - Was Meliodas trying to resist Gowther's magic, though? My list of explanations is too long for one comment so I'll continue in the replies.
Click to expand...


Tsotso Donchev​

1 year ago (edited)
5:55 - Escanor only resisted Gowther's magic because Sunshine was starting to power him up, which was accidentally triggered by Gowther showing him Merlin in the dream. And yes, power ups do increase the spirit stat, as shown with unsealed Meliodas' power levels. 6:24 - Galand was only playing around and having fun after being released from being imprisoned for 3000 years. 6:37 - I already explained this earlier: Drole and Gloxinia were weakened by Escanor's surprise attack. This is something you seem to ignore in this entire video. Escanor's power level when he activated Rhitta was not 28,800. That was his power level when he went into his pseudo-transformation. But after that, he called Rhitta and got even stronger by accessing the heat stored in the axe. Keep in mind that when Chandler used True Night and Escanor reached Rhitta to fight under that condition, he was able to somewhat block attacks from the Original Demon when defending Merlin. Not something a 28.8k character would be able to do. So when Escanor made the attack against Gloxinia and Drole, his power level has to have been comparable to when he fought the OG Demon, which is at the very least over 100k. And considering that Drole and Gloxinia were not on their guard, they were certainly weakened from the attack, at least temporarily. This is also supported by Meliodas stating he was waiting for this opportunity when he went to fight them in chapter 171. He even states that he wouldn't be able to beat them if he attacked them head-on before Escanor's surprise attack. Them being weakened, even temporarily, explains why Meliodas was able to get the upper hand against Drole before going into demon mark. 6:46 - Meliodas was amped as it was nighttime due to him being a demon, while Gloxinia and Drole were not, or at least not to the same degree. The magic they use in battle is the magic they have as a fairy or giant, not the darkness magic they got from their commandments, which is the only one that might be amped. Also, you are forgetting Meliodas employed a switch strategy to fight them which is explained by Gowther in chapter 173 page 9. To quote what he said: "He's alternating rendering one or the other incapable of fighting, so as to keep it constantly one-to-one. Of course, considering the captain's level of strength, it is the most plausible feat to perform." This implies that Meliodas wouldn't be able to fight them both at exactly the same time, which is why Meliodas injures one and then fights the other while the injured one is recovering, repeating this until Gloxinia runs out of droplets of life. The only reason it didn't work is because all the commandments showed up. 6:55 - One shot most of his commandment opponents??? Wut? The only ones you can make an argument for him one shotting would be Melascula, Fraudrin and Grayroad. But they weren't active combatants during that fight. Monspeet , Derieri, Gloxinia and Drole are 50k or above. Their total power levels are 94.64%, 92.85%, 89.28% and 96.42% as high as unsealed demon mark Meliodas respectively. Zeldris and Estarossa are above that Meliodas. Why would he be able to one shot most of them? Only three of them are much weaker than him while the rest are either relative to or above him? 7:12 - Once again, it was a chokehold. I already went over this earlier. 7:23 - Mael's attack against King wasn't a full power punch. It wasn't even a punch. Mael wasn't trying to kill King or Gowther in one hit. He wanted to torture Gowther physically and mentally through King. 7:33 - Mael wasn't sane in his 4 commandments state. He only acted on instinct and used hax abilities with the commandments. He didn't use his immense raw power to one shot them and for most of the fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPmzRa-sXQs&ab_channel=Bysentenial without doing anything but activate commandment abilities. He didn't one shot them not because he couldn't but because his mentality was disoriented during the fight. This is why Gowther was able to easily get close to Mael and invade his mind without Mael instantly one shotting him. 7:44 - I've already said this multiple times, but power levels are gauges of a character's strength, not necessarily speed or durability. A higher power level might be indicative of better speed or durability, but that's not always the case as speed and durability are not what power levels measure. 7:57 - Zeldris never saw the 142k initial post-revival Assault Mode Meliodas who fought Escanor at Corand. The Meliodas Zeldris was referring to was the one that fought him and Estarossa in Camelot. That Meliodas is stronger than when his power level was measured at 142k. This is indicated by statements in chapters 233 and 242 which imply that Meliodas is constantly getting stronger and reverting to his original self. So when he fought Zeldris and Estarossa in Camelot, he was much stronger than when he fought Escanor in Corand, meaning that the Meliodas Zeldris is comparing The One to is stronger than the one Escanor fought. Also, Escanor didn't reaffirm anything later in the scan you show at 8:02. He simply said that when he fought Meliodas in the past, it hurt a lot and he was in his pride form during broad daylight. However, that's not necessarily referring to The One, as Escanor is in his pride form throughout the entire day. The Ludociel comparison is pointless as 142k was not prime Meliodas' true power level. It was the initial power level of post-revival Assault Mode Meliodas. Merlin's assumptions are scetchy as there's nothing to suggest she ever saw Meliodas go all out. She's only seen him in base and in demon mark during his prime. Her comments about him being like his old self are in reference to his mindset and personality, which is evident in how he toys around with near noon Escanor during their fight. She can also be talking about how strong he will be once he fully reverts to his old self. 8:13 - The albion have a total power level of 5,500. However, that doesn't mean their strength level is higher than Meliodas. First off, there are two types of albions - fat and tall ones. The tall one is the one which cleaved apart a small mountain, implying it specializes more in strength. Meanwhile, the fat albion which attacked Camelot tried to use a magic breath attack to destroy the kingdom instead of a physical attack, implying that it specializes more in magic. So Meliodas being able to cut the fat albion's arms when it's a giant, easy to hit target and can't even dodge, is not inconsistent as most of the fat albion's power level could be magic (which is implied by the way it tried to destroy Camelot) while its strength stat could be relative to Meliodas'. 8:22 - I already went over this earlier. Mael wasn't going all out and was clearly vastly superior to King in power, as he was able to easily catch a full power spirit spear attack with one arm. 8:32 - Such as? I'm interested in finding out what those so called other inconsistencies are. 9:55 - There's no inconsistency between Merlin's words in chapter 286. She just said that numbers aren't the most important thing in that situation, stopping Meliodas from becoming the demon king was. Her saying Ludociel's magic was necessary to get inside the dark zone surrounding the cocoon doesn't contradict anything. She considered Chandler, Cusack and Ludociel's power levels impressive but stated that the objective of stopping the coccon was more important than numbers. The only example I agree is inconsistent with the power levels is Diane vs Meliodas in chapter 14. Because even though Diane only landed one attack on Meliodas, with the rest being dodged, he didn't take any visible damage from it. But since that's only one example, you did say you could let it slide at 3 inconsistencies maximum.
Click to expand...
here
 
Bruh, I explained everything yesterday. Check what I said throughly.

It being Assault Mode or not didn’t have anything to do with the argument.
 
ByAsura said:
Bruh, I explained everything yesterday. Check what I said throughly.

It being Assault Mode or not didn’t have anything to do with the argument.
Click to expand...
Did you forget analytical prediction for Meliodas? Also did you forget about removing that weakness from high ranking demons?
 
For that one comment, yes. It’s fine to add.

Anyway, 3C Mael already has an even greater multiplier than Assault Mode, and it’s based on stronger evidence than the AM multiplier. So can we just drop this?
 
asura do u think purgatory flames should carry some of purgatory hax? or do you feel they need to be completely in purgatory for all the effects?
 
By ‘should’ carry, are you asking me what I want personally, or what I think based on what it’s shown in the series?
 
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