Forest of Susser

[Nami_Kami]

Nvm agreeing with NamiKami now /s

NGL bro remove the s. It's legit a thread-saver.

 

[Damage3245]

Can anyone actually understand how frustrating it is that what I see are very real issues are just being glossed over?

The proposal at its core is find a distance value by comparing it to an object of reference.

There are multiple other objects of reference in the panel.

To verify whether the main object of reference we're using is reliable, we can compare the distance value we get from it to the other objects of reference.

If we use those multiple objects of reference, we find a set of distance values that is far smaller than the proposed value.

How is this not the definition of an inconsistency? How many possible alternative calcs would it take to convince people that Konoha is not 124 kilometers in diameter?

I really can't fathom how we can accept on one hand that Kishimoto drew the walls and drew the Hokage monument and drew the streets of Konoha to be dozens of times bigger than they're portrayed everywhere else in the series and so clearly he has no sense of scale whatsoever.... and on the other hand accept that he drew the Forest of Death perfectly, no errors at all in scale.

If someone else can explain how we can possibly reconcile this without inconsistency, please do because it's frustrating as hell.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If you can believe that Kishimoto drew everything else about Konoha in that panel incorrectly except for its exact radius, and the Forest of Death, then it doesn't seem hard to believe that he could've also drawn the Forest of Death inaccurately. (Which doesn't have to just mean size either but other details too. No split in the rivers, no sign of the rock formations behind the characters)

Since I've shown that the landmarks of Konoha (including one of the main streets) is closer in size to the reference points I chose, it seems that the balance of evidence is against the Forest of Death being the most accurate measuring stick.

My point is that you can make different arguments about the size of other objects as they're not given a stated size and just have sizes calced from other smaller things. The Forest of Death is the only thing that has an EXACT canonical size, and as it's one of the largest areas within Konoha, it's much easier to represent accurately (you'd find it easier for example to draw something like Russia or Canada on a global map to scale than a small city simply due to restrictions on utensil and human precision, assuming the map isn't huge of course).

Also, direct statements > fan calcs, however good the math in them is

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Can anyone actually understand how frustrating it is that what I see are very real issues are just being glossed over?

The proposal at its core is find a distance value by comparing it to an object of reference.

There are multiple other objects of reference in the panel.

To verify whether the main object of reference we're using is reliable, we can compare the distance value we get from it to the other objects of reference.

If we use those multiple objects of reference, we find a set of distance values that is far smaller than the proposed value.

How is this not the definition of an inconsistency? How many possible alternative calcs would it take to convince people that Konoha is not 124 kilometers in diameter?

I really can't fathom how we can accept on one hand that Kishimoto drew the walls and drew the Hokage monument and drew the streets of Konoha to be dozens of times bigger than they're portrayed everywhere else in the series and so clearly he has no sense of scale whatsoever.... and on the other hand accept that he drew the Forest of Death perfectly, no errors at all in scale.

If someone else can explain how we can possibly reconcile this without inconsistency, please do because it's frustrating as hell.

For real, you already showed your arguments why not just wait and see the others opinion instead of trying to corner everyone who disagrees with you? All of those points were already repeatedly talked about earlier, let others decide for themselves.

 

[Damage3245]

My point is that you can make different arguments about the size of other objects as they're not given a stated size and just have sizes calced from other smaller things. The Forest of Death is the only thing that has an EXACT canonical size, and as it's one of the largest areas within Konoha, it's much easier to represent accurately (you'd find it easier for example to draw something like Russia or Canada on a global map to scale than a small city simply due to restrictions on utensil and human precision, assuming the map isn't huge of course).

Sure, we don't have an official size for them... But that doesn't automatically mean my calcs for them are wrong.

For real, you already showed your arguments why not just wait and see the others opinion instead of trying to corner everyone who disagrees with you? All of those points were already repeatedly talked about earlier, let others decide for themselves.

People will ultimately vote how they vote. I'm just expressing my frustration while simultaneously rephrasing my argument.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Can anyone actually understand how frustrating it is that what I see are very real issues are just being glossed over?

How is this not the definition of an inconsistency? How many possible alternative calcs would it take to convince people that Konoha is not 124 kilometers in diameter?

I understand you. Consistency matters. Which is why I was against 124km Konoha for 95% of the thread. However, I do believe that given the fact that we have statements to support Konoha's size, we can rule the depictions of Konoha as not being meant-to-scale.

Now, I want you to understand something. When I say "not-meant-to-scale" I don't say "the buildings are hundreds of meters!!!". This is ridiculous. I believe they are as big as depicted. Including the Hokage mountain. What I do however mean is that when Kishimoto draws Konoha, it's not meant to be taken as the WHOLE of Konoha. If Kishimoto were to try to draw ALL of Konoha, it'd be too much. So what I believe is that he simply draws the key parts of Konoha, not the whole of it.

What I mean is: Konoha contains much more than these wide-shot panels depict, more-so than the individual structures being taller and bigger. Which is why Konoha varies so greatly in-between shots.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but no Konoha wide-shots don't depict A LOT of things we know exist lore-wise.

Reasons to accept the current Konoha-size:
•We have a statement that the FoD is merely a PART of an OUTSKIRT of Konoha, which'd require the rest of Konoha to massively dwarf it.
•We have an implication that Konoha's population may be in the millions.
•We know that Kishimoto does not depict everything that's within Konoha when making wide-shots, so Konoha shots are not meant to be taken that seriously.

Reasons to disagree:
•The fact that Konoha is consistently portrayed as small.
•Too
•Many
•Times
•Like legit we could find dozens of examples.

Overall I see the point behind both sides, and honestly I'm not 100% on either side.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I understand you. Consistency matters. Which is why I was against 124km Konoha for 95% of the thread. However, I do believe that given the fact that we have statements to support Konoha's size, we can rule the depictions of Konoha as not being meant-to-scale.

Now, I want you to understand something. When I say "not-meant-to-scale" I don't say "the buildings are hundreds of meters!!!". This is ridiculous. I believe they are as big as depicted. Including the Hokage mountain. What I do however mean is that when Kishimoto draws Konoha, it's not meant to be taken as the WHOLE of Konoha. If Kishimoto were to try to draw ALL of Konoha, it'd be too much. So what I believe is that he simply draws the key parts of Konoha, not the whole of it.

What I mean is: Konoha contains much more than these wide-shot panels depict, more-so than the individual structures being taller and bigger. Which is why Konoha varies so greatly in-between shots.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but no Konoha wide-shots don't depict A LOT of things we know exist lore-wise.

Reasons to accept the current Konoha-size:
•We have a statement that the FoD is merely a PART of an OUTSKIRT of Konoha, which'd require the rest of Konoha to massively dwarf it.
•We have an implication that Konoha's population may be in the millions.
•We know that Kishimoto does not depict everything that's within Konoha when making wide-shots, so Konoha shots are not meant to be taken that seriously.

Reasons to disagree:
•The fact that Konoha is consistently portrayed as small.
•Too
•Many
•Times
•Like legit we could find dozens of examples.

Overall I see the point behind both sides, and honestly I'm not 100% on either side.

Pretty much why I agree with possibly, myself. Worst case scenario, we could use 20 km as the lowest possible we know to be true, based on the statements of the forest and being merely part of the outskirts.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Sure, we don't have an official size for them... But that doesn't automatically mean my calcs for them are wrong.

I don't disagree, I'm just saying things with official sizes take priority

 

[Nami_Kami]

Pretty much why I agree with possibly, myself. Worst case scenario, we could use 20 km as the lowest possible we know to be true, based on the statements of the forest and being merely part of the outskirts.

TBH if we accept the databook statement I think it's gonna go beyond possibly.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Reasons to accept the current Konoha-size:
•We have a statement that the FoD is merely a PART of an OUTSKIRT of Konoha, which'd require the rest of Konoha to massively dwarf it.
•We have an implication that Konoha's population may be in the millions.

Forgot to mention the fanbook saying that Konoha is more like a big city.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

So I was planning on making a big post addressing all points from both camps in great detail. Unfortunately, I'm dealing with a lot of deadlines IRL atm, and I'm kinda super cramped and short on time. So, in order not to hold this thread hostage and delay its conclusion even further than it already has and because certain goons have been pestering me to cast my vote in a certain gc , I guess I'll just "concisely" share my thoughts and conclusions regarding this topic.

To start with, I want to say that I actually understand and acknowledge all of Damage's concern. He's.......really not wrong in what he's arguing. The visuals do indeed not line up with what's being proposed on this thread, like at all. I don't even think it's really necessary to be familiar with pixel-scaling to come to that conclusion, really. It's rather obvious. So, no, I'm not pretending like those issues don't exist or anything.

I guess for me what it comes down to is lore/intention vs visuals.
Anyone that knows me, knows I don't care much for ratings and results as much as I care for pure scaling and lore. I may not always get things right, or see eye to eye with everyone on all topics, but believe me that's always the mindset I approach the series with. It's fine if anyone disagrees with that approach, of course. It's just how I personally see things.

With that being said, I personally believe it's been sufficiently proven that:
A) The forest in this scan (Chapter 115) is indeed the Forest of Death.
B) Konoha is the largest of the five Shinobi villages, and is considered a large city rather than a mere village.
C) Konoha boasts a pretty substantial population given the statements about the ratio between civilians and Shinobi, as well as the ratio of Genin to Chunin, with Jonin being even more rare. This in combination with the fact that Konoha can send at least between 13-16,000 elite Chunin and Jonin supports the notion that there is a rather large population in my estimation. A population that I simply believe is likely too large to contain within a ~4 Km village containing no high-rise buildings or skyscrapers.
D) Given that essentially all depictions of Konoha do NOT actually include all areas or landmarks we know to be within the village, such as the massive cemetery, numerous parks, certain large districts such as the Uchiha District, and more. This leads me to believe that those shots aren't necessarily meant to portray absolutely everything within Konoha to perfect scale, and are rather meant to be establishing shots showcasing the environment as a whole. Which in this particular case, was more so meant to show the village in its totality next to a landmark of known size we already saw earlier in the arc, that being the FoD. Also, to be fair, it's not like this depiction is solely limited to that one scan. Here (Chapter 438) we also see that the village in its totality is still meant to be significantly larger than that circular forest next to its outskirts. And the fact that this has remained consistent for hundreds of chapters indicates that this is ultimately what Kishimoto intended to portray.
Also, just as a side note, as an artist myself (although nowhere near the level of Kishimoto, obviously), I can personally attest to how difficult it'd be to portray all of that minute detail within such a limited drawing space within that tight of a schedule. It's virtually impossible lmao.

So, while I acknowledge and accept the inconsistencies we find when we pixel-scale using landmarks within Konoha, I ultimately believe the lore and author intention firmly lies with the side of Option A. So that is where I'll make my bed as well. I wouldn't be upset if a compromise solution is what we end up going with, as I understand the opposition has valid concerns, but in the end I just personally find the lore implications slightly more convincing overall.

 

[Deceived3596]

Cool beans brother cheese

 

[Damage3245]

C) Konoha boasts a pretty substantial population given the statements about the ratio between civilians and Shinobi, as well as the ratio of Genin to Chunin, with Jonin being even more rare. This in combination with the fact that Konoha can send at least between 13-16,000 elite Chunin and Jonin supports the notion that there is a rather large population in my estimation. A population that I simply believe is likely too large to contain within a ~2Km village containing no high-rise buildings or skyscrapers.

For the record the average value for the three methods that I calced would be 2297 m which would be for the radius, and the diameter would be ~4.5 km.

Only clarifying just in case your size estimate there meant you thought I was saying the village was 2 km from end to end.

 

[Theglassman12]

I feel like even with arguing about how individual structures in Konoha would be ridiculously large if we were to take the size at face value (which again, doesn't disprove anything, it's just an argument of incredulity at that point), we have both the novel/guide statement and the manga statement backing up that the forest of death is that big. That kind of takes precedent over any ridiculous belief unless we're gonna say the author's wrong for some reason. I'm agreeing with Option A for now.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

For the record the average value for the three methods that I calced would be 2297 m which would be for the radius, and the diameter would be ~4.5 km.

Only clarifying just in case your size estimate there meant you thought I was saying the village was 2 km from end to end.

Oh, yeah, no I understand that. My wording was just whacky there as I was writing in a hurry. I'll adjust it to avoid confusion.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think I ever once argued that the Forest of Death is not that big...?

I feel like even with arguing about how individual structures in Konoha would be ridiculously large if we were to take the size at face value (which again, doesn't disprove anything, it's just an argument of incredulity at that point)

If pointing out how the result of a calc is inconsistent by comparing it to other calcs is an Argument from Increduility, then I have no clue what an Argument from Incredulity is anymore. Just seems like a buzzword to dismiss counter-evidence.


"Here's some evidence for why Konoha is this big."

"Here's some counter-evidence for why that's inconsistent."

"You're arguing from increduility".

Huh?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don’t know if this placates your concerns at all Damage (it’s alright if not), but I don’t even agree that the Kage Rushmore mountain is like 3 km tall. Personally, I plan on treating it how we treated Las Nachos thickness. But basically the whole notion of “but this makes these structures inherently super inflated” I don’t think is a true consequence of my thread. Will they get bigger, yes, do I think it will be at the expense of ignoring the other depictions, no.

 

[Damage3245]

Until I see how this all shakes out in the end I don't know if that placates me or not, but we'll see.

I've got to go for now and will check back in on the thread tomorrow.

 

[Nami_Kami]

D) Given that essentially all depictions of Konoha do NOT actually include all areas or landmarks we know to be within the village, such as the massive cemetery

There are also the training grounds, which are so massive that buildings can't even be seen from them, and are seen containing mountains. These same training grounds are heavily implied to be within Konoha, and even house the memorial stone for the dead heroes. This implies that Konoha isn't just a bunch of buildings squashed together, like the wide-shots depicts, but actually contains a lot of wildlife, mountains, and forests. Which makes sense if it's large enough that a 10km forest is merely a part of it's outskirts. So what's within the walls of Konoha could be MASSIVE.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

There are also the training grounds, which are so massive that buildings can't even be seen from them, and are seen containing mountains. These same training grounds are heavily implied to be within Konoha, and even house the memorial stone for the dead heroes. This implies that Konoha isn't just a bunch of buildings squashed together, like the wide-shots depicts, but actually contains a lot of wildlife, mountains, and forests. Which makes sense if it's large enough that a 10km forest is merely a part of it's outskirts. So what's within the walls of Konoha could be MASSIVE.

Mhmm, yeah, for sure. I agree. Thanks for bringing up more examples cause I didn't have time to go hunt for scans.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Damage3245 you're literally arguing that the individual structures would be gigantic and that's somehow an issue in this fantasy story where it's not taking place in our world. This is no different than you saying that if we accept that Konoha is that big, then it's an issue because it's like arguing it's bigger than Japan, which is a nothing burger argument when it doesn't take place in our world. If the forest of death is confirmed to be that big, and Konoha is much bigger than that via what's shown, then what's the exact problem here beyond just bringing up some random what if scenarios that aren't proven at all beyond theories? If you have an issue with what Arc calced to be Konoha's size then argue against that rather than points that mean nothing like "oh this building would be X times larger".

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245 you're literally arguing that the individual structures would be gigantic and that's somehow an issue in this fantasy story where it's not taking place in our world.

Definitely not the case. I'd have zero problem with the structures or walls or monuments of Konoha being absolutely gigantic, if I thought for a moment that it was consistent.

This is no different than you saying that if we accept that Konoha is that big, then it's an issue because it's like arguing it's bigger than Japan, which is a nothing burger argument when it doesn't take place in our world. If the forest of death is confirmed to be that big, and Konoha is much bigger than that via what's shown, then what's the exact problem here beyond just bringing up some random what if scenarios that aren't proven at all beyond theories? If you have an issue with what Arc calced to be Konoha's size then argue against that rather than points that mean nothing like "oh this building would be X times larger".

What do you think I've been doing by calculating different sizes of Konoha and comparing that Arc's calculation?

How can it mean nothing to say "The walls are consistantly around X size, but if we use Arc's calculation the walls end up as Y size."

I'm not saying "Y size is too damn big!", I'm saying "Y size is not consistent with the rest of the series!"

 

[Damage3245]

If Arc was proposing that Konoha was only 500 meters across my arguments against that would be the exact same ones I'm using here. It's not incredulity at being too large.

 

[Theglassman12]

Can you back that up with actual statements in the series that Konoha or the forest of death isn't anywhere near as close to 20KM wide? Because Arc has like 2 separate scans backing his claims up for this. Can you find anything that disproves this where they say it's either 10 KM or less in overall diameter?

 

[Nami_Kami]

@Damage3245 you're literally arguing that the individual structures would be gigantic and that's somehow an issue in this fantasy story where it's not taking place in our world. This is no different than you saying that if we accept that Konoha is that big, then it's an issue because it's like arguing it's bigger than Japan, which is a nothing burger argument when it doesn't take place in our world. If the forest of death is confirmed to be that big, and Konoha is much bigger than that via what's shown, then what's the exact problem here beyond just bringing up some random what if scenarios that aren't proven at all beyond theories? If you have an issue with what Arc calced to be Konoha's size then argue against that rather than points that mean nothing like "oh this building would be X times larger".

Currently I'm leaning more towards Arc's size, but you severely and disgustingly downplayed and misrepresented Damage's arguments. He isn't arguing what-ifs. Nor did he ignore Arc's points. He brought-up counter-evidence in the form of conflicting statements of the population and much higher amounts of visuals that depict Konoha as smaller, since it wasn't proven yet that the FoD's size applies to Konoha and that relied on pixel-scales as well. Keep in mind people started changing their minds after his points. So to call it nothing-burgers is insane.

The current arguments for Konoha's size come from me, not Arc, and they were recently made.

It's cool to disagree with him. But don't try to attack him with nothing-burgers.

Anyway, we can get this thread back on track.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

NamiKami is my alt

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

There are also the training grounds, which are so massive that buildings can't even be seen from them, and are seen containing mountains. These same training grounds are heavily implied to be within Konoha, and even house the memorial stone for the dead heroes.

By the way it's not just implied it's straight out stated later that Naruto left the village for the first time in the land of waves mission which means the trainning ground they had to fight Kakashi is indeed inside Konoha

 

[Theglassman12]

@Nami_Kami Literally arguing that if we accept Konoha being X size than Y building or Z roads would be insanely large is a nothing burger because at no point is this tackling anything about the confirmed size of the locations in the first place. I'm not seeing how this is any different than the Japan point he made earlier, which means nothing to the argument that the forest of death is 20KM wide and Konoha is much larger than it. If Damage wants to disprove it, I'd like to see actual conflicting statements on how big Konoha or the forest of death really is. I've already said my piece, if Damage doesn't provide any actual scans to contradict the 20KM wide statement then my stance won't change.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

@Nami_Kami Literally arguing that if we accept Konoha being X size than Y building or Z roads would be insanely large is a nothing burger because at no point is this tackling anything about the confirmed size of the locations in the first place. I'm not seeing how this is any different than the Japan point he made earlier, which means nothing to the argument that the forest of death is 20KM wide and Konoha is much larger than it. If Damage wants to disprove it, I'd like to see actual conflicting statements on how big Konoha or the forest of death really is. I've already said my piece, if Damage doesn't provide any actual scans to contradict the 20KM wide statement then my stance won't change.

I believe the argument is moreso that you can see people with confirmed heights next to structures and they aren't that large

 

[Nami_Kami]

By the way it's not just implied it's straight out stated later that Naruto left the village for the first time in the land of waves mission which means the trainning ground they had to fight Kakashi is indeed inside Konoha

Holy ****, Suigetsu. I LOVE YOU. Honestly I was 50/50 on whether the training grounds were really within Konoha, but this confirms it. This also means that the HUGE forest which was so far away from civilization that no buildings could be seen is also part of Konoha.