Forest of Susser

[Damage3245]

If you make the calcs with 80k- 6% then would get about 1.3M in total and over 200k shinobi of each nation

edit: Any of the values I gave in a low ball since we know that only a select few were recommended to the chunin exam instead of all the genin, so in fact the final value are the number of shinobi who passed through the academy and attempted the chunin exam

I'm sorry if my earlier argument was a little too incredulous for you but look at what you're writing now?

200k shinobi per nation? If you include that with Kodachi's statement earlier of for every 101 citizens 1 of them is shinobi and the others must be civilian, and then assume that all of them much live within the ninja village, then that means you're arguing the total population of each hidden village is 20.2 million people.

Does Sunagakure, Kumogakure and Konohagakure look like the kind of metropolises that hold over 20 million individuals?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Not sure if exact details are known, but I do know Kunkuro and Temari were both Jonin and Gaara was the Kazekage by the time the Chunin Exams that lead to Sakura, Team Kurinai, Team Asuma, and Team Gai all becoming Chunin with Neji going straight to Jonin took place.

Is that chunin exam considered cannon here?

I'm sorry if my earlier argument was a little too incredulous for you but look at what you're writing now?

I'm pretty sure you or other mods already criticized me for using incredubility in other threads so I'm not commenting anymore about that.

200k shinobi per nation? If you include that with Kodachi's statement earlier of for every 101 citizens 1 of them is shinobi and the others must be civilian, and then assume that all of them much live within the ninja village, then that means you're arguing the total population of each hidden village is 20.2 million people.

Does Sunagakure, Kumogakure and Konohagakure look like the kind of metropolises that hold over 20 million individuals?

I'm stating facts using official numbers either they fit your's or other's narrative it's irrelevant, and let's not talk about looks because that is what's being talked about. Also I was under the impression you didn't even believed that Kodachi's statement refered to Konoha alone

 

[Damage3245]

I'm stating facts using official numbers either they fit your's or other's narrative it's irrelevant, and let's not talk about looks because that is what's being talked about. Also I was under the impression you didn't even believed that Kodachi's statement refered to Konoha alone

From what I can tell you're stating speculation or conjecture using some official numbers as a basis, but this is the not the same thing as Konoha's population being factually the number you're presented.

And I don't believe in Kodachi's statement in the way that was presented further up in the thread; I included it in my response since that is the statement being used by the opposition. I can fully accept Kodachi's statement if it means the whole nation (which it seems to) and not the city.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

From what I can tell you're stating speculation or conjecture using some official numbers as a basis, but this is the not the same thing as Konoha's population being factually the number you're presented.

It's a value based on factual numbers. You are right it's not Konoha's population it's a supported value that describes a small percentage of the Konoha population since as I said any value is a low ball since the 200k are the shinobi who attempted the chunin exam which is a very specific part.

And I don't believe in Kodachi's statement in the way that was presented further up in the thread; I included it in my response since that is the statement being used by the opposition.

It just seems to me that you are using a statement you don't believe in to propose another argument of incredubility.

 

[Damage3245]

It just seems to me that you are using a statement you don't believe in to propose another argument of incredubility.

... Because I'm trying to put the opposition's argument in perspective. I can't quote the opposing side's own argument?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m not gonna lie, it seems like neither of you (Suigetsu nor Damage) are going to convince each other. Might just be best to agree to disagree and wait for the remaining staff to sweep in and lock in their votes.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I’m not gonna lie, it seems like neither of you (Suigetsu nor Damage) are going to convince each other. Might just be best to agree to disagree and wait for the remaining staff to sweep in and lock in their votes.

I guess so. Fine with that

 

[Damage3245]

I’m not gonna lie, it seems like neither of you (Suigetsu nor Damage) are going to convince each other. Might just be best to agree to disagree and wait for the remaining staff to sweep in and lock in their votes.

I'm fine waiting for the input of more staff. I may not be fully active on this thread for a couple days.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Except for the part where I've shown other panels in the series that are more consistent with that value.

There hasn't been a single panel presented yet that supports the calc in the OP

I think for me the more concerning angle is, we are entertaining using a value taken from calculating a map that's clearly not to scale (shown by you with the streets and stuff)

That being said, it is undeniable Konoha is indeed bigger than the 10 km forest. Even if we want to dismiss virtually any map shown which showcases how big is Konoha compared to the forest, we at least have a minimum.

And I believe at the very least, Arc's argument of the population density does show greater support for that big a size, specially when combined with Suigetsu's arguments.

I'd even venture to say the over 60 km size is kinda conservative, given some of the maps depicting the forest and Konoha side by size.

So for me, I support the size, but also believe it's kinda iffy because of the scale being shown on panel and can understand why we'd want to dismiss it.

 

[LordTracer]

In reading through Arc and Damage’s arguments and the posts afterwards, I’m still in favor of the OP. I don’t find the counterarguments convincing.

 

[Damage3245]

I think for me the more concerning angle is, we are entertaining using a value taken from calculating a map that's clearly not to scale (shown by you with the streets and stuff)

That being said, it is undeniable Konoha is indeed bigger than the 10 km forest. Even if we want to dismiss virtually any map shown which showcases how big is Konoha compared to the forest, we at least have a minimum.

And I believe at the very least, Arc's argument of the population density does show greater support for that big a size, specially when combined with Suigetsu's arguments.

I'd even venture to say the over 60 km size is kinda conservative, given some of the maps depicting the forest and Konoha side by size.

So for me, I support the size, but also believe it's kinda iffy because of the scale being shown on panel and can understand why we'd want to dismiss it.

"Some of the maps?" There's multiple maps here?

Also, I've addressed the population density issue; the statement Arc is using is for the population of a nation, not a city.

In reading through Arc and Damage’s arguments and the posts afterwards, I’m still in favor of the OP. I don’t find the counterarguments convincing.

Which part was not convincing? Every single line?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"Some of the maps?" There's multiple maps here?

Not on this thread, I'm making a general statement.

 

[Damage3245]

Not on this thread, I'm making a general statement.

I may be a bit lost here, but a general statement that there's multiple maps showing Konoha and the Forest of Death side-by-side which show that a 62 km radius is a conservative value? That'd be really relevant to the thread and I've not seen any of them.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So Lephyr would you be more in favor of a partial rating (seems so from your post), and if so, do you find likely or possibly more suitable?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I’m not gonna lie, it seems like neither of you (Suigetsu nor Damage) are going to convince each other. Might just be best to agree to disagree and wait for the remaining staff to sweep in and lock in their votes.

Agreed with this statement yes.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So Lephyr would you be more in favor of a partial rating (seems so from your post), and if so, do you find likely or possibly more suitable?

Possibly, I'd say.

I may be a bit lost here, but a general statement that there's multiple maps showing Konoha and the Forest of Death side-by-side which show that a 62 km radius is a conservative value? That'd be really relevant to the thread and I've not seen any of them.

I re-checked, seems the one I saw was the same as OP but without color. And the other place I had saw one removed the link, but likely is the same one. So my comment on that can be disregarded.

 

[Damage3245]

I re-checked, seems the one I saw was the same as OP but without color. And the other place I had saw one removed the link, but likely is the same one. So my comment on that can be disregarded.

Okay, no problem, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Reading through both responses, my stance hasn't changed. I don't see the Leaf Village being huge as holding up with its actual depictions of size.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I have an idea. What if, since the map being drawn to scale is questionable given the size of many landmarks, we use the statement of the FoD being inside Konoha as a lowball, and the calc as the possible rating? Basically that Konoha is at least 20 km wide, possibly/likely 62 km

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I have an idea. What if, since the map being drawn to scale is questionable given the size of many landmarks, we use the statement of the FoD being inside Konoha as a lowball, and the calc as the possible rating? Basically that Konoha is at least 20 km wide, possibly/likely 62 km

you put a possibly on that already cluttered ass naruto page and im gonna put you six foot under.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

you put a possibly on that already cluttered ass naruto page and im gonna put you six foot under.

Try me

 

[Damage3245]

I have an idea. What if, since the map being drawn to scale is questionable given the size of many landmarks, we use the statement of the FoD being inside Konoha as a lowball, and the calc as the possible rating? Basically that Konoha is at least 20 km wide, possibly/likely 62 km

There are many potential solutions including averaging the size, finding a reasonable lowball, using possibly/likely ratings, etc.

The proposal in the OP of straight upgrading the size without any consideration of any contradictions that may arise from this is what I'm mostly opposed to.

 

[NemesisZorX]

Heh you were using that statement saying what you liked but now that statement is wrong? Also The land around Konoha should very likely belong to Konoha too for example the very florest of death which exists outside of Konoha.

So, since you mentioned transport of goods isn't a lot more likely he mentioned his nation because there isn't a single place in his land that can trade products with? Again he is arguing with the Hokage not the Lords and he very specifically stated "Konoha to share arable land with us" that let's clear than Konoha owns it, he also talks about getting more money from the other kage to make up for the "loss of a bijuu" so all this let's clear it's about the village not the nation.

Nothing there actually contradicts or "strongly discourages". Also people have a misconception that the 16 000 were all the shinobi they had available when it is clearly not, there were only chunin and jounin, I will remind you that in the begining of Naruto it's stated by third Hokage that the chunin exam limits the number of ninjas that reach Chunin in order to keep the balance in power within each village, meaning those 16 000 are actually an elite of powerful ninjas and not a full force

I mean, that's true, Konoha didn't send all its shinobi into battle, many still stayed in the village, like genins and others, in the second fanbook it says that Konoha's population is 5/5 the largest of all the villages, and its military power is 3/5, it is also called the largest shinobi village in the first fanbook, In the first fanbook it says that the people of the land of wind live around the oases, but in Gaara hiden written by Kodachi it says that the only oasis that prospers or the only oasis clinging to existence is sunagakure, this makes me believe that in suna is concentrated at least the majority of the population of the land of wind, Suna still sent some of his shinobis to war, which means that the population to support these shinobis is still quite large.

 

[NemesisZorX]

About Konoha being 124km I don't know (in truth to me that seems very big 40km or 50km I would believe), but speaking of other things sometimes it is drawn very small, and sometimes huge like here, for example from this other perspective the attack seems smaller it will depend on the artist's mood

 

[Damage3245]

About Konoha being 124km I don't know (in truth to me that seems very big 40km or 50km I would believe), but speaking of other things sometimes it is drawn very small, and sometimes huge like here, for example from this other perspective the attack seems smaller it will depend on the artist's mood

It may be a matter of individual perspective here so I can't tell you for sure that you're wrong for viewing it huge in one panel and small in another panel, but I've calced that explosion through multiple different methods and it ranged from 1.5 to 2.3 Gigatons across four methods. It doesn't vary that hard (like 1 Gigaton vs 500 Gigatons).

 

[MinatoSparkle]

There are many potential solutions including averaging the size, finding a reasonable lowball, using possibly/likely ratings, etc.

The proposal in the OP of straight upgrading the size without any consideration of any contradictions that may arise from this is what I'm mostly opposed to.

I'm fine with not giving a full rating to the calc given size scaling problems, but it is pretty clear that the intent is for the FoD to be inside Konoha, and the FoD has a very clearly stated size

 

[Damage3245]

I'm fine with not giving a full rating to the calc given size scaling problems, but it is pretty clear that the intent is for the FoD to be inside Konoha, and the FoD has a very clearly stated size

It's not inside of Konoha itself; it's on the outskirts. It doesn't reside within Konoha's walls.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's not inside of Konoha itself; it's on the outskirts. It doesn't reside within Konoha's walls.

When I said inside Konoha, I mean the whole area considered Konoha, not only what's inside the walls. Though on that point, it is also the case that regardless of the inconsistency in its size, the FoD is never portrayed to be larger than Konoha's main area, and afaik it's the only large Konoha landmark with a size stated by Kishimoto himself, meaning he thinks Konoha is larger than 20 km

 

[Damage3245]

When I said inside Konoha, I mean the whole area considered Konoha, not only what's inside the walls. Though on that point, it is also the case that regardless of the inconsistency in its size, the FoD is never portrayed to be larger than Konoha's main area, and afaik it's the only large Konoha landmark with a size stated by Kishimoto himself, meaning he thinks Konoha is larger than 20 km

If you can believe that Kishimoto drew everything else about Konoha in that panel incorrectly except for its exact radius, and the Forest of Death, then it doesn't seem hard to believe that he could've also drawn the Forest of Death inaccurately. (Which doesn't have to just mean size either but other details too. No split in the rivers, no sign of the rock formations behind the characters)

Since I've shown that the landmarks of Konoha (including one of the main streets) is closer in size to the reference points I chose, it seems that the balance of evidence is against the Forest of Death being the most accurate measuring stick.

 

[Nami_Kami]

@MinatoSparkle has a point. The databook directly says that Forest of Death is at the outskirts of Konoha, as we've seen earlier in the databook. An outskirt is something that's at the edge of something, but is still a part of said thing.

Therefore we can conclude that the FoD is in Konoha via direct statements.

This brings the question, why do we never see it in wideshots? This can easily be argued to be just the perspective, as most wideshots don't show the whole village. Furthermore a TON of locations we know exist in Konoha are not shown in wideshots, like parks we see in the series, the Uchiha police station, the literal residence containing whole city blocks we know was given specifically to the Uchiha that is seperated by walls from the rest of the village, etc. So we can make a case for the wide-shots not being meant to scale.

Due to this I'd have to say that Konoha is at least big enough to contain a 10km forest at it's outskirts.

Furthermore, we can also make a case that for this to be possible Konoha being 120 KM is actually on-point, because if the FoD is 10km and the rest is, say, 5km, then the FoD would make for the majority of the village and it's center. It won't simply be an outskirt. For it to merely be an outskirt would imply that the village would have to be significantly larger.

Therefore currently I'd have to agree with Arc's scale.

 

[Stryker861]

Honestly yea, as nami kami said the fact that a 20km forest is stated to be at the EDGE of all of konha really puts into perspective how big konoha really is edit - (even just the interor of the walls). Arcs arguments alongside suigetsuhygus aswell puts me heavily in favor of option A

 

[Damage3245]

The Forest of Death is not within the walls of Konoha is my point. Whether you consider it part of the larger extent of Konoha, fine, whatever, but that doesn't really change anything as far I'm concerned.

 

[Stryker861]

The Forest of Death is not within the walls of Konoha is my point. Whether you consider it part of the larger extent of Konoha, fine, whatever, but that doesn't really change anything as far I'm concerned.

Regardless the forest is not drawn in such a way that the size is meant to be comparable to even the radius of the walls interior.

 

[Damage3245]

Regardless the forest is not drawn in such a way that the size is meant to be comparable to even the radius of the walls interior.

And how about everything else in the panel? Or all the other panels I've shown?

 

[Stryker861]

And how about everything else in the panel? Or all the other panels I've shown?

Arc has already addressed this in previous posts

 

[Damage3245]

Arc has already addressed this in previous posts

Arc has ignored the majority of panels I've posted. He didn't even address the horizon argument beyond a "I don't need to grant him that axiom".

Okay; even if someone doesn't agree with the argument I raised they could at least address it.

 

[Nami_Kami]

The Forest of Death is not within the walls of Konoha is my point. Whether you consider it part of the larger extent of Konoha, fine, whatever, but that doesn't really change anything as far I'm concerned.

Even IF it's not within the walls, for it to be merely at an outskirt of Konoha would still suggest that the rest of Konoha is quite massive. I also have an issue with the argument that it's not within the walls. On the panel we actually see that the wall extends very far, out of line of sight. Assuming the war is circular, which is seen when Omoi visits Konoha, this'd mean that the wall does indeed contain the FoD. I may do a visual guide on how far it must extend to form a circle.

Edit: Nvm. Imma stick to the outskirt argument. It may not be within the walls.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The FoD is not within the walls of Konoha it’s on the outskirts as shown in the panel and as stated in the databook

 

[Damage3245]

The FoD is not within the walls of Konoha it’s on the outskirts as shown in the panel and as stated in the databook

I'm glad we agree on at least that much.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Nvm agreeing with NamiKami now /s