Forest of Susser

[Nami_Kami]

I personally don't have anything against this; and I never really liked how some people can get too cherry picky about everything assuming pixel perfection; it's difficult to draw each and every detail of a large world map while realistically making this inside it specks by comparison.

Pixel-scaling doesn't have to be perfect, but it also doesn't have to be heavily inconsistent and inflated. If there is 1 or 2 panels that make something look big and everything else makes it look significantly smaller, I'd say the cherry-picking is using the inflated size, not the unholy amount of contradictions, which, in Konoha's case, exist.

 

[Damage3245]

I appreciate the patience that has been shown. In order to best tackle this I had to reread a substantial portion of the series in order to get as comprehensive an overview as possible of Konoha in order to truly verify where Arc7Kuroi's calc produces an accurate size or one that may be too unreliable.

Overview

There are two main questions that the supporters of this proposal need to answer if they think that this is the best solution for finding Konoha's size:

1) Is there anything in the panel used for the calculation that contradicts the proposed size of Konoha?

2) Are there other panels in the series that present conflicting evidence regarding the proposed size of Konoha?

These aren't the only factors that matter of course; there are other relevant things like do other panels in the series support the size value, what statements exist concerning the size, etc. But so far in this thread at least no other support has been offered for the result for the calculation. The method currently stands alone.

I will focus on why I believe this method is flawed and address the two questions above.

For the record this is not a matter of dismissing the calculation based on sheer disbelief or a reaction to the large result. Instead, the actual issue lies in the contradictions that arise when comparing this value with how Konoha is typically depicted. My earlier post was to emphasize that Konoha’s size seems too large relative to its usual portrayal in the series and now I will do my best to prove it.

So let's start off with the panel itself:

What the method in the OP essentially proposes is that since the Forest of Death, with a diameter of 20 kilometers, can be pixelscaled to be. 255 pixels across, then the radius of the Leaf Village (AKA, the distance from the Hokage monument to the wall) with a pixelscaling of 791 pixels would be 62.0392 kilometers.

How do we verify that the distance from the Hokage monument to the walls is being drawn correctly here? Well, there are other things in the panel that we can use for comparison. If those are being drawn accurately, then that increases the likelihood that the distance in the calc is being drawn accurately.

I'm going to bring up three alternative points of comparison we can use here and the supporting evidence for them.

Reference 1: The Hokage Monument's Height

Spoiler: Hokage Monument's Height

Hashirama's Statue
Hashirama Height = 38 px = 1.851 m

Hashirama Statue = 453 px = 22.0658684211 m

Cliff
Hashirama Statue = 33 px = 22.0658684211 m

Cliff Height = 144 px = 96.2874258375 m

Konoha Radius

Cliff Height = 32 px = 96.2874258375 m

Konoha Radius = 791 px = 2380.10480742 m

References 2: The Walls of Konoha

Spoiler: Walls of Konoha

Wall Section Width

Omoi Height = 20 px = 1.7 m

Wall Section Width = 550 px = 46.75 m

Wall Height

Wall Section Width = 15 px = 46.75 m

Wall Height = 16 px = 49.8666666668 m

Konoha Radius

Wall Height = 17 px = 49.8666666668 m

Konoha Radius = 791 px = 2320.26666667 m

Reference 3: The Hokage Monument's Width

Spoiler: Hokage Monument's Width

Hokage Mountain

Minato's Height = 40 px = 1.792 m

Hokage Mountain Width = 1855 px = 83.104 m

Konoha Radius

Hokage Mountain Width = 30 px = 83.104 m

Konoha Radius = 791 px = 2191.17546667 m

Supporting Point 1: Comparing Reference Points

Spoiler: Comparing Reference Points

Now, you may be asking "Damage, how do you know your values that you've pixelscaled are consistent enough to use?"

Fair question; so wouldn't the best way to deciding which reference point between mine or Arc's is closer to Konoha's size is to compare it to another wide depiction of Konoha and see which is closer?

Here is a street on Konoha visible on the panel used in both mine and Arc's calculations. It's 165.5 pixels long.

Here is that same street during the Pain Arc when Pain performs his powerful Shinra Tensei ninjutsu. We can compare the arrangement of the streets in both panels and see that they're the same. The angle of course isn't perfectly the same, but we can use it as a rough point of comparison.

Using the cliffs where the Hokage monument is as reference which I've found before:

Cliff Height = 145 px = 96.2874258375 m

Street Length = 853 px = 566.43568441 m

If we use the panel now where both Arc and I have found values for Konoha's radius:

Arc's Radius = 791 px = 62039.2 m

Arc's Street Length = 165.5 px = 12980.4 m

Damage's Radius = 791 px = 2380.10480742 m

Damage's Street Length = 165.5 px = 497.986530503 m

I think there should really be no question of which version is closer to the street's actual length. If we go by Arc's reference point in the calc that street would be almost exactly 13 kilometers long.

Whereas we can tell from clearly drawn landmarks in Konoha that the size is a lot closer to half a kilometer which my version is nearer to.

If there's doubt to the value for the height of Konoha's Hokage monument then, what needs to be provided to alleviate those doubts. We see views from characters atop the Hokage mountain and it certainly doesn't look like it is from a kilometers high vantage point. We've seen the Hokage head's in comparison to the actual characters multiple times too.

Supporting Point 2: Horizon Distance

As I've established further up, the height of the Hokage monument is more commonly depicted as being around 100 meters tall. At that height, the distance to the horizon for a viewer will be around 37.5 kilometers as per this site.

Meaning that when we see characters atop the Hokage monument looking out into the distance and we can see the walls of Konoha from there... the curvature of the Earth would mean that there is no way we should be able to see those walls if they were a distance of 62 kilometers away, much less all of the forests and mountains beyond those walls too. Examples of where we can see the walls from the Hokage monument being here and here. (In case the argument is that for the walls to be visible they are absurdly tall, like over a kilometer, bear in mind we can see for ourselves up close that the walls here and here and even in the page that Arc uses for his calc we can see in the bottom panels that the walls are not several hundreds of meters tall. They're not big enough for this to make sense).

I assume there may be some argument of "Kishimoto wouldn't know to take things like horizon into account"; but we can't assume too much here. After all when an artist draws a generic storm extending to the horizon then we assume typical horizon distances for the sake of calcs. It shouldn't be an issue to acknowledge that the proposed size fits the visuals above a lot less than the alternatives.

Conclusion

I can understand people being wary about "cherry picking" pixelscaling as DarkDragonMedeus mentioned, but I want to clarify that having more than 1 step of pixelscaling does not guarantee that the calcs are inaccurate. I don't think the calcs I've presented can be dismissed solely on the basis of "Well, Arc's method uses 1 panel, and your methods use 2 to 3 panels, so your methods are probably wrong." If you think my methods are likely wrong then I would prefer to be shown where the inaccuracies are exactly and not just have the entire method dismissed because of a hypothetical problem with them.

Deceived raised this point:

For me, it's similar to how we, as a wiki, uphold the notion that consistency is important, indexing wise, when feats for a character's scaling is contextually relevant. Not that every depiction of a character's feats are important, since we completely disregard absolute low and high-ends as we realize that someone like, for example: Goku destroying several rocks isn't more consistent to his actual level of power, which is rarely depicted in any reasonable sense, as we have more contextually relevant feats that place him vastly beyond that, despite there being visual inconsistencies with it most of the time.

I have to ask; what is the calculation in the OP if not an absolute high end in this scenario here? Out of a list of results for the radius being:

• 2380 meters
• 2320 meters
• 2191 meters
• 62039 meters

Which one of these values sticks out the most?

The point regarding consistency in powerscaling is not fully appropriate for the topic I believe. A character like Goku having more feats of, for example, destroying rocks or boulders, doesn't automatically outweigh him having a planet level feat because a character's feats are not inherently limiting. If it was a case where Goku consistently struggled to damaged a boulder then it'd be a more valid point since it would mean a consistent limitation that could be inconsistent with another feat.

Scaling the size of an object is different because finding a size for something is inherently limiting. A character can hold back their strength or their Area of Effect, but an object can't hold back its size...

If the argument is going to made that none of the methods I've brought up here are valid to use because "Maybe Kishimoto didn't draw those objects properly to scale in that panel", then I have to wonder what the point of the calc even is? If Kishimoto didn't draw the walls right, didn't draw the cliff right, didn't draw the Hokage monument right, didn't draw the streets of Konoha right.... then why are we just taking it on faith that he did drew the Forest of Death right?

In summary, I think I've shown that the alternative methods I've presented are not only close to each other, they also have the backing of multiple scans from across the series. Whereas the OP - at least thus far - has presented a single method with no other scans to support it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I knew you’d reply the second I hopped on my flight I’ll look at this in couple of hours lololol

 

[Damage3245]

I knew you’d reply the second I hopped on my flight I’ll look at this in couple of hours lololol

Haha, no rush. Thanks for giving me the time to go over it in detail.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No prob bob, I’ll drop my refutation later and give you time to re-refute anything I say, then we call in the staff?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm glad Damage wrote up an elaborate counterargument, and makes quite a few solid points. I think the point of it implying Naruto's earth being larger than our Earth being implied is one of the main concerns people originally had; not to much the "Assumption all residents are giants" given plenty of retro era adventure games are much worse in those regards.

But I'll wait on Arc.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think the point of it implying Naruto's earth being larger than our Earth being implied is one of the main concerns people originally had

I don't think Konoha's size, regardless of how this thread ultimately goes, would have any tangible effect on the planet's size.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Ngl I still agree with Arc more because it's easier to represent the largest things in a wide view to scale than smaller things, but Damage did make a pretty convincing argument

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

But I'll wait on Arc.

Same

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Introduction
The crux of Damage's argument here seems to be that of consistency. His claim boils down to Konoha is consistently 2 km in radius utilizing his pixel scaling, and then he supports his consistency argument by attempting to display absurdities that are a consequence of my argument, to further argue that his position is more consistent. As such, I will break my response down into addressing the consistency of Konoha being 62 km in radius, followed by addressing the alleged absurdities my claim entails.

Consistency
We are told that for every Shinobi (in Konoha) there exists 100 civilians that serve the role of supporting these ninjas. We also know that Konoha provided roughly 1/5 of the Allied Shinobi forces, amounting to 16000 ninjas (80000 were there in total, divide that by 5). That would mean that there are 1.6 million civilians in the Land of Fire that exist for the support of the 16000 Shinobi. This does not mean that only 1.6 million civilians live in the Land of Fire, but rather that they have at least 1.6 million civilians residing there in order to support Konoha's Shinobi population. Additionally, within the official fanbook, we are told that the healthy civilian population in Konoha makes the village less like a village and more akin to a big city.

My premise here is as follows: it is more likely than not/it holds a high degree of probability that the majority of the 1.6 million civilians that support the 16000 Shinobi live within Konoha. This is likely for the following reasons:

1. During the age of Part 1 and Shippuden, Konoha possesses no means of bulk transport (in order to ferry in goods from outside cities and settlements into Konoha to support the Shinobi). In fact the primary means of communication during this era is the ninja equivalent of a messenger pigeon. So, it is abundantly clear that the Land of Fire and Konoha just do not possess the means of mass transport of goods into the city from elsewhere; thus, it is far more likely they produce and distribute the goods within the city. The logical entailment of this would be that those ~1.6 million civilians must reside within Konoha.
2. The aforementioned logical deduction is supported by the notion that Konoha is a large city according to the databooks. And it is considered a big city because of the healthy civilian population. The denotation of healthy even further implying a large civilian population.

So, via abductive reasoning, we can logically conclude that it is most likely that the Shinobi supporting populace (1.6 million) resides within Konoha given that we know that the village is considered a large city in part due to the civilian populace, and there are no feasible means of mass transport of goods within the village produced by 1.6 million people to support the Shinobi.

The reason this supports my original claim within the OP that Konoha is ~62 km in radius, is because Konoha would inherently have to be massive in order to house such a population. Doubly so given that Konoha, architecturally speaking, is akin to a low density suburban neighborhood (far from a sprawling modern city with towering skyscrapers). According to google, suburban areas have population densities of 100 to 10000 people per square km, with the 10000 figure being cited for more nigh-urban cities, which Konoha is far from. Konoha being a low density suburb would fall on that lower end of being able to house roughly 100 people per km^2. Based on what I argue above, Konoha (with almost 2 million citizens at a 62 km radius) would have a population density of about 132 people per square km. Well within and consistent with the size obtained from statements, supported by the lore.

Based on the above, I believe I have substantiated the claim that a 62 km radius Konoha is supported by the lore of the series. Meanwhile, Damage's preponderance of consistency still (and admittedly by Damage) falls privy to the issues I brought up in earlier posts (y'all can control f my name to read my other arguments, I won't pad out this response longer than it needs to be with an in depth explanation). All of the Konoha sizes Damage calculates utilize inferior methods to obtain its size, going from several panels which introduce lots of room for error between art inconsistencies between panels, as well as using panels that do not have the intention of displaying the size of Konoha in its entirety (which the panels I use do have that explicit intent).

Absurdities
Damage asserts that because a consequence of my argument is that one could argue that the individual structures within Konoha are comically large (the road example), it should be deemed unfit for use. The issue with this assertion is that it is a bit of a non-sequitur, my claim does not inherently entail that the individual objects within Konoha are correctly/consistently scaled to the entire size (or radius) of Konoha. My claim only inherently entails that the size of Konoha in its entirety is larger than the Forest of Death, aka the only objective consequence of my argument is that the radius is ~62 km.

What would this mean then for things like roads or Kage Rushmore in Konoha? Well, the sizes of those objects would be evaluated on a case by case basis. For example, it is abundantly clear that the roads are not consistently hundreds of meters across, or anything of the sort; thus, we can likely conclude that the comparison between those roads and the entire size of Konoha is not accurately portrayed. However, for other structures like say Kage Rushmore, they would require their own arguments and perhaps even thread to address. Clearly the mountain is portrayed as significant in comparison to the size of Konoha, the mountain after all is a fundamental foundation of the land the village sits upon. That being said, we are often shown humans have comparable sizes to the Rushmore heads of the mountain as well. As for how we would reconicle that, that is a separate topic than what is entailed by this thread, but to give some foresight, there are plenty of instances in which we average depicts of an object's size in order to obtain a compromise (the width of the walls of Las Noches are a perfect example of this, they are shown both comparable in size to the massive multi-hundred km structure while also comparable to people like Ichigo, so we averaged the depictions to reach a common ground).

The main take away here is that my premise does not inherently entail these structures (buildings, Rushmore faces, roads, etc.) are comically large to the point of being an absurdity. This is because the only inherent consequene of my argument is that the radius/size of the entire village is ~62 km. Also, the horizon point with the Kage Rushmore mountain is only valid if you presuppose that the pixel scaled height Damage proposed is correct, and since I am arguing against that being inherently the case, I don't need to grant him that axiom, as my refutation of his argument eliminates the ground his claim stands upon.

Conclusion
I think this will be my last post on the matter, I don't believe I really have anything more of substance to provide. I believe I have thoroughly substantiated my claim of Konoha's radius being ~62 km as being consistent. If Damage has anything else to add, by all means, if not I'd appreciate a ping of the staff that commented to re-evaluate the thread now that the topic has been thoroughly discussed.

 

[Deceived3596]

Arc activated Bubba Gump mode and started cooking.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Mama always said life was like a box of chalk

 

[MinatoSparkle]

.

Stand proud, you can cook

Also I've been thoroughly ununconvinced

 

[Deceived3596]

I don't plan on addressing Damage's contentions against my personal opinion of the thread, as it doesn't matter to the overall acceptance of the thread, and I personally believe it needlessly takes away from Arc's more important argument by introducing further argumentation that'll require more time and effort from Damage to address, when said time and effort can be focused on debating Arc's points instead.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll make one last response to Arc7Kuroi's post:

We are told that for every Shinobi (in Konoha) there exists 100 civilians that serve the role of supporting these ninjas. We also know that Konoha provided roughly 1/5 of the Allied Shinobi forces, amounting to 16000 ninjas (80000 were there in total, divide that by 5). That would mean that there are 1.6 million civilians in the Land of Fire that exist for the support of the 16000 Shinobi. This does not mean that only 1.6 million civilians live in the Land of Fire, but rather that they have at least 1.6 million civilians residing there in order to support Konoha's Shinobi population. Additionally, within the official fanbook, we are told that the healthy civilian population in Konoha makes the village less like a village and more akin to a big city.

The Allied Shinobi forces is also made up of a contribution of samurai from the Land of Iron so I think it'd be more safe to assume that 1/6 of the contribution is by Konoha, but that's just a minor side note.

The main issue here is that the quote you use there says this:

"It is commonly said it takes 100 people to feed one human who specializes in fighting. In short only with a nation that has a population of one million people can you support 10,000 Shinobi."

The issue with this is that Konoha is not the nation. The Land of Fire is the nation and Konoha is the ninja village that resides within it and those civilians do not necessarily have to live within Konoha itself to support them.

You acknowledge this but then you appear to assert headcanon that this population count must exist solely within Konoha with no objective evidence. Not a scan nor a statement.

1. During the age of Part 1 and Shippuden, Konoha possesses no means of bulk transport (in order to ferry in goods from outside cities and settlements into Konoha to support the Shinobi). In fact the primary means of communication during this era is the ninja equivalent of a messenger pigeon. So, it is abundantly clear that the Land of Fire and Konoha just do not possess the means of mass transport of goods into the city from elsewhere; thus, it is far more likely they produce and distribute the goods within the city. The logical entailment of this would be that those ~1.6 million civilians must reside within Konoha.
2. The aforementioned logical deduction is supported by the notion that Konoha is a large city according to the databooks. And it is considered a big city because of the healthy civilian population. The denotation of healthy even further implying a large civilian population.

1. Arc7Kuroi's argument dismisses the possibility of rural or nearby settlements that could support the population of Konoha. First off, it is highly likely that they would exist since we don't see the existence of giant sprawling farms inside the city itself. The technology level in Naruto is obviously high enough so that people could have their own carts and caravans transporting goods into the city... Just because we don't explicitly see the logisitics of it doesn't mean we have to assume that the city is entirely self-sustaining and therefore every single person supporting shinobi exist within the walls.

Also please bear in mind that if Arc7Kuroi's assumption is wrong and there aren't 1.6 million people living within Konoha's walls, then they don't necessarily need the means to mass transport high quantities of goods to the city as the demands of the city would be a lot less.

I'll also note that in Chapter 648 it is shown that that Sunagakure, the village hidden in the sands in a rival nation to Konoha, is able to survive because Konoha grants them a plot of fertile land for farming. Obviously they must have the means of transporting food all the way from the Land of Fire to the Land of Wind where Sunagakure is. So therefore it should be no issue for Konoha to be supplied the same way. This is backed up in the Gaara Hiden novel.

2. Konoha being closer to a big city than a village, and Konoha having a healthy civilian population does not confirm Arc7Kuroi's arguments. Neither of these are a confirmation on population count or city size in terms of area or radius.

So, via abductive reasoning, we can logically conclude that it is most likely that the Shinobi supporting populace (1.6 million) resides within Konoha given that we know that the village is considered a large city in part due to the civilian populace, and there are no feasible means of mass transport of goods within the village produced by 1.6 million people to support the Shinobi.

The reason this supports my original claim within the OP that Konoha is ~62 km in radius, is because Konoha would inherently have to be massive in order to house such a population. Doubly so given that Konoha, architecturally speaking, is akin to a low density suburban neighborhood (far from a sprawling modern city with towering skyscrapers). According to google, suburban areas have population densities of 100 to 10000 people per square km, with the 10000 figure being cited for more nigh-urban cities, which Konoha is far from. Konoha being a low density suburb would fall on that lower end of being able to house roughly 100 people per km^2. Based on what I argue above, Konoha (with almost 2 million citizens at a 62 km radius) would have a population density of about 132 people per square km. Well within and consistent with the size obtained from statements, supported by the lore.

Based on the above, I believe I have substantiated the claim that a 62 km radius Konoha is supported by the lore of the series. Meanwhile, Damage's preponderance of consistency still (and admittedly by Damage) falls privy to the issues I brought up in earlier posts (y'all can control f my name to read my other arguments, I won't pad out this response longer than it needs to be with an in depth explanation). All of the Konoha sizes Damage calculates utilize inferior methods to obtain its size, going from several panels which introduce lots of room for error between art inconsistencies between panels, as well as using panels that do not have the intention of displaying the size of Konoha in its entirety (which the panels I use do have that explicit intent).

I think Arc7Kuroi's abductive reasoning here is far from conclusive; he is assuming a level of population that exists within the Land of Fire and is adding further assumptions on top of that to assert they must all live within the limits of Konoha's walls. Abductive reasoning is useful but without actual evidence it remains speculative.

Since his entire argument hinges on that assumption (again for emphasis, zero scans, zero statements), the conclusion that Konoha absolutely has to have an absurd radius value in the vicinity of 62 km is far from solid.

Damage asserts that because a consequence of my argument is that one could argue that the individual structures within Konoha are comically large (the road example), it should be deemed unfit for use. The issue with this assertion is that it is a bit of a non-sequitur, my claim does not inherently entail that the individual objects within Konoha are correctly/consistently scaled to the entire size (or radius) of Konoha. My claim only inherently entails that the size of Konoha in its entirety is larger than the Forest of Death, aka the only objective consequence of my argument is that the radius is ~62 km.

It seems to me that Arc7Kuroi is just sidestepping the inherent flaws here by dismissing it as a non-sequitur, but I think it's a real issue. If the village is as large as Arc7Kuroi claims it is, then logically the scale of what we see in comparison to the radius of the village would increase as well. Arc's proposal is that we ignore that... because he doesn't want to have it accepted that individual objects are that big.

Whether the objective of the thread is solely to get the radius value accepted or not doesn't change what the pixelscaling shows... The issues still exist independent of that.

I have pointed out how the features of the village in that panel are more closely depicted on the scale that matches my calcs rather than Arc7Kuroi's calc, and Arc7's argument is that it doesn't matter because none of the features are to scale? And yet also asserts that the Forest of Death must be to scale with the radius of the village? How can this be anything but cherrypicking? Arc7 picks the one feature of the village that supports his argument and dismisses the rest.

What would this mean then for things like roads or Kage Rushmore in Konoha? Well, the sizes of those objects would be evaluated on a case by case basis. For example, it is abundantly clear that the roads are not consistently hundreds of meters across, or anything of the sort; thus, we can likely conclude that the comparison between those roads and the entire size of Konoha is not accurately portrayed. However, for other structures like say Kage Rushmore, they would require their own arguments and perhaps even thread to address. Clearly the mountain is portrayed as significant in comparison to the size of Konoha, the mountain after all is a fundamental foundation of the land the village sits upon. That being said, we are often shown humans have comparable sizes to the Rushmore heads of the mountain as well. As for how we would reconicle that, that is a separate topic than what is entailed by this thread, but to give some foresight, there are plenty of instances in which we average depicts of an object's size in order to obtain a compromise (the width of the walls of Las Noches are a perfect example of this, they are shown both comparable in size to the massive multi-hundred km structure while also comparable to people like Ichigo, so we averaged the depictions to reach a common ground).

Why can we not take the radius of Konoha on this case-by-case basis as well? In this case I've shown you 3 alternatives that are close together in size?

Arc7 concedes that if we use his radius value for Konoha, then that would mean we can conclude that certain elements are not accurately portrayed... His calc hinges on the basis on that the Forest of Death and the radius of the village are accurately portrayed. It seems to me there is an issue here that is being glossed over.

The main take away here is that my premise does not inherently entail these structures (buildings, Rushmore faces, roads, etc.) are comically large to the point of being an absurdity. This is because the only inherent consequene of my argument is that the radius/size of the entire village is ~62 km. Also, the horizon point with the Kage Rushmore mountain is only valid if you presuppose that the pixel scaled height Damage proposed is correct, and since I am arguing against that being inherently the case, I don't need to grant him that axiom, as my refutation of his argument eliminates the ground his claim stands upon.

Arc7Kuroi appears to be again sidestepping my argument entirely on the basis of "If I'm right about the village radius, then you're inherently wrong about the horizon argument" - though this doesn't logically follow. Arc7Kuroi just stated earlier that he's not arguing about the features of the village being to scale with his radius value; therefore the Hokage monument won't be upgraded to a absurd scale like 2.5 km tall.

But the Hokage monument must have a height value; which I've found in my calcs. So therefore there is no reason not to consider the implications of this.


Since Arc7Kuroi has requested a ping of staff members for this, I'll do that. Please go over the counter-argument here, Arc7Kuroi's response to it and my own response here.

@LordTracer @LordGriffin1000 @UchihaSlayer96 @Theglassman12 @DemonGodMitchAubin @DarkDragonMedeus @LephyrTheRevanchist

We'll allow plenty of time for people to re-evaluate and confirm their votes.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

1. Arc7Kuroi's argument dismisses the possibility of rural or nearby settlements that could support the population of Konoha.

Konoha is surrounded by forests, mountains so having nearby settlements it's unlikely

First off, it is highly likely that they would exist since we don't see the existence of giant sprawling farms inside the city itself. The technology level in Naruto is obviously high enough so that people could have their own carts and caravans transporting goods into the city... Just because we don't explicitly see the logisitics of it doesn't mean we have to assume that the city is entirely self-sustaining and therefore every single person supporting shinobi exist within the walls.


Also please bear in mind that if Arc7Kuroi's assumption is wrong and there aren't 1.6 million people living within Konoha's walls, then they don't necessarily need the means to mass transport high quantities of goods to the city as the demands of the city would be a lot less.

Konoha is surrounded by forests so fruits and stuff are a given, one of the common missions for lower rank shinobi is killing wild animals so they very clearly have meat too, there is also the Naara forest that is known for being used to cultivate stuff to make special pills. I will remind you that anything that comes in Konoha and out of it basically requires a ton of protection because there are rogue ninjas or just normal thieves everywhere which is a plot point.

2. Konoha being closer to a big city than a village, and Konoha having a healthy civilian population does not confirm Arc7Kuroi's arguments. Neither of these are a confirmation on population count or city size in terms of area or radius.

I'll also note that in Chapter 648 it is shown that that Sunagakure, the village hidden in the sands in a rival nation to Konoha, is able to survive because Konoha grants them a plot of fertile land for farming. Obviously they must have the means of transporting food all the way from the Land of Fire to the Land of Wind where Sunagakure is. So therefore it should be no issue for Konoha to be supplied the same way. This is backed up in the Gaara Hiden novel.

This literally breaks your point regarding Konoha not being self sustainable and not having farmland around konoha since they can just give away a big enough plot of fertile land to sustain one of the big villages of the world of Naruto, so clearly they have enough for themselves too.

I think Arc7Kuroi's abductive reasoning here is far from conclusive; he is assuming a level of population that exists within the Land of Fire and is adding further assumptions on top of that to assert they must all live within the limits of Konoha's walls. Abductive reasoning is useful but without actual evidence it remains speculative.

Since his entire argument hinges on that assumption (again for emphasis, zero scans, zero statements), the conclusion that Konoha absolutely has to have an absurd radius value in the vicinity of 62 km is far from solid.


It seems to me that Arc7Kuroi is just sidestepping the inherent flaws here by dismissing it as a non-sequitur, but I think it's a real issue. If the village is as large as Arc7Kuroi claims it is, then logically the scale of what we see in comparison to the radius of the village would increase as well. Arc's proposal is that we ignore that... because he doesn't want to have it accepted that individual objects are that big.

Whether the objective of the thread is solely to get the radius value accepted or not doesn't change what the pixelscaling shows... The issues still exist independent of that.

I have pointed out how the features of the village in that panel are more closely depicted on the scale that matches my calcs rather than Arc7Kuroi's calc, and Arc7's argument is that it doesn't matter because none of the features are to scale? And yet also asserts that the Forest of Death must be to scale with the radius of the village? How can this be anything but cherrypicking? Arc7 picks the one feature of the village that supports his argument and dismisses the rest.


Why can we not take the radius of Konoha on this case-by-case basis as well? In this case I've shown you 3 alternatives that are close together in size?

Arc7 concedes that if we use his radius value for Konoha, then that would mean we can conclude that certain elements are not accurately portrayed... His calc hinges on the basis on that the Forest of Death and the radius of the village are accurately portrayed. It seems to me there is an issue here that is being glossed over.


Arc7Kuroi appears to be again sidestepping my argument entirely on the basis of "If I'm right about the village radius, then you're inherently wrong about the horizon argument" - though this doesn't logically follow. Arc7Kuroi just stated earlier that he's not arguing about the features of the village being to scale with his radius value; therefore the Hokage monument won't be upgraded to a absurd scale like 2.5 km tall.

But the Hokage monument must have a height value; which I've found in my calcs. So therefore there is no reason not to consider the implications of this.

Konoha in anime and manga shown 2 train station in Konoha during Boruto time it wouldnt make sense to have if it would only have 4km, also Boruto uses the train to travel across the village to go to the academy, considering ninjas are superhuman they would easily do 4km in such a little time that wouldn't make sense even more so ninjas that constantly jump around roof tops.
Also related to the hokage monument on your calcs 2 of them use the same frame so kind of contra productive if your argument is of consistency it's very obvious those 2 are gonna have very similar values so why not calc using the height of each kage and say you have 5 calcs instead of just 3? So I think you actually have 2 calcs not 3. And that shot is very clearly to show the hokages above each of their heads and for that reason the kages need to be drawn when showing the monument. Also use small humans to compare to very big stuff it's always a bad ideia (cof cof One Piece cof cof).
Anyways, considering you always used the same shot of Konoha that also have the "forest of susser" then you could easily use the same argument you used regarding size consistency because if Konoha is 2km radius then the forest would be like 3 times smaller making it less than 700 meters which is absurdly smaller than the actual stated size of 10km.

 

[Damage3245]

Konoha is surrounded by forests, mountains so having nearby settlements it's unlikely

There is a whole other city within walking distance of Konoha. There's plenty of possibility of nearby settlements, villages, farms, etc.

This literally breaks your point regarding Konoha not being self sustainable and not having farmland around konoha since they can just give away a big enough plot of fertile land to sustain one of the big villages of the world of Naruto, so clearly they have enough for themselves too.

It literally does the opposite? It shows that food transportation exists that can deliver food to other countries; so delivering food from farms across the Land of Fire to Konoha is no problem.

Konoha is surrounded by forests, mountains so having nearby settlements it's unlikely

Konoha is surrounded by forests so fruits and stuff are a given, one of the common missions for lower rank shinobi is killing wild animals so they very clearly have meat too, there is also the Naara forest that is known for being used to cultivate stuff to make special pills. I will remind you that anything that comes in Konoha and out of it basically requires a ton of protection because there are rogue ninjas or just normal thieves everywhere which is a plot point.

This seems to be missing my point. I'm not saying that farms need to be right on the outside of the walls of Konoha; they'd be spread out across the Land of Fire.

Konoha in anime and manga shown 2 train station in Konoha during Boruto time it wouldnt make sense to have if it would only have 4km, also Boruto uses the train to travel across the village to go to the academy, considering ninjas are superhuman they would easily do 4km in such a little time that wouldn't make sense even more so ninjas that constantly jump around roof tops.
Also related to the hokage monument on your calcs 2 of them use the same frame so kind of contra productive if your argument is of consistency it's very obvious those 2 are gonna have very similar values so why not calc using the height of each kage and say you have 5 calcs instead of just 3? So I think you actually have 2 calcs not 3. And that shot is very clearly to show the hokages above each of their heads and for that reason the kages need to be drawn when showing the monument. Also use small humans to compare to very big stuff it's always a bad ideia (cof cof One Piece cof cof).
Anyways, considering you always used the same shot of Konoha that also have the "forest of susser" then you could easily use the same argument you used regarding size consistency because if Konoha is 2km radius then the forest would be like 3 times smaller making it less than 700 meters which is absurdly smaller than the actual stated size of 10km.

That's my point; is it more likely that 1 object of reference is drawn incorrectly, or that multiple objects of reference are drawn incorrectly? Which of the two match other panels from across the manga? I've shown that my reference points are more consistent.

Also you're overlooking that Konoha has expanded in Boruto's time.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

There is a whole other city within walking distance of Konoha. There's plenty of possibility of nearby settlements, villages, farms, etc.

We don't know how long they walked, and there is a statement regarding ninjas being faster than horses and they have great resistance, there is also that they don't actually need to follow any road,

It literally does the opposite? It shows that food transportation exists that can deliver food to other countries; so delivering food from farms across the Land of Fire to Konoha is no problem.

And also shows that Konoha can sustain themselves too, also the possibility of food transportation was never denied but it would be really hard and even ninjas that are faster than horses take days to go from Konoha to Suna.

This seems to be missing my point. I'm not saying that farms need to be right on the outside of the walls of Konoha; they'd be spread out across the Land of Fire.

But the deal you referenceed was between Konoha and Suna nort the land of fire, so Konoha has their own fields

That's my point; is it more likely that 1 object of reference is drawn incorrectly, or that multiple objects of reference are drawn incorrectly? Which of the two match other panels from across the manga? I've shown that my reference points are more consistent.

You are comparing small objects/people with much bigger things,

Also you're overlooking that Konoha has expanded in Boruto's time.

Actually the bulk of the village isn't that much larger, we have establishing shots and even maps from the boruto Era and the expanded area isn't big enough to actually make up a Huge difference

Shadow seemigly agreed that the difference is not significant.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Consistency
We are told that for every Shinobi (in Konoha) there exists 100 civilians that serve the role of supporting these ninjas. We also know that Konoha provided roughly 1/5 of the Allied Shinobi forces, amounting to 16000 ninjas (80000 were there in total, divide that by 5). That would mean that there are 1.6 million civilians in the Land of Fire that exist for the support of the 16000 Shinobi. This does not mean that only 1.6 million civilians live in the Land of Fire, but rather that they have at least 1.6 million civilians residing there in order to support Konoha's Shinobi population. Additionally, within the official fanbook, we are told that the healthy civilian population in Konoha makes the village less like a village and more akin to a big city.

I'm pretty sure Ikemoto's statement is inconsistent, as in the Naruto Family Day novel it's said that only recently did the non-Ninja population become larger than the ninja population. Would provide the scan for that when I get home from my trip.

 

[Damage3245]

@Suigetsuhyugs I think ultimately that's besides the point as I've shown that there are no stretches of farmland within the walls of Konoha itself. And even if Konoha did own the arable land that they lent to Sunagakure that doesn't mean said land or the people who run it exists within the walls of Konoha.

The first Kazekage says that their entire nation is covered in sand; he doesn't just specify his own village. So if he's asking for land from Konoha then he probably doesn't mean land that solely exists within Konoha itself but arable land in the Land of Fire they have access to..

 

[Damage3245]

For the record here is the statement from the Naruto Shinden novel that Nami Kami mentioned above. It is the closest thing to an official statement we have on population in Konoha:

This should strongly discourage the idea that there were over 1.6 million people living in Konoha during the Naruto series. Given that the number of Shinobi that Konoha can field in an army is around 16,000 shinobi or less.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Could the OP move me from agree down to Neutral. I haven't been able to keep up with this thread (most threads for that matter) due to IRL issues (heath and such) so i haven't been able to read Damage's counter arguments so it would be wrong of me to ignore them. I'm just too tired (heck I forgot to log out yesterday and fell asleep due to fatigue), i just can't find the time.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

For the record here is the statement from the Naruto Shinden novel that Nami Kami mentioned above. It is the closest thing to an official statement we have on population in Konoha:

This should strongly discourage the idea that there were over 1.6 million people living in Konoha during the Naruto series. Given that the number of Shinobi that Konoha can field in an army is around 16,000 shinobi or less.

I realize I'm probably the last person who should be questioning the novels given how much I use them. The irony is not lost on me.
But don't you think that a lore column written by Kodachi (the main Boruto writer at the time), in collaboration with Kishimoto, for the official Boruto manga should take precedence over an exerpt from a novel not written by either? Especially when we consider that the information from the Shinobi Hiden Column actually came after the Novel's. Naruto Shinden was released on May 2, 2018. Whereas Boruto Chapter 32 (where the column was attached) came out in March 11, 2019. So technically, even if both sources are equal, the Hiden Column is the more up-to-date source of information.


That being said, I've yet to read the final posts from you and Arc fully, as I've been a bit short on time today. But I'll cast my vote down later when I get a chance to read through everything fully.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

@Suigetsuhyugs I think ultimately that's besides the point as I've shown that there are no stretches of farmland within the walls of Konoha itself. And even if Konoha did own the arable land that they lent to Sunagakure that doesn't mean said land or the people who run it exists within the walls of Konoha.

Heh you were using that statement saying what you liked but now that statement is wrong? Also The land around Konoha should very likely belong to Konoha too for example the very florest of death which exists outside of Konoha.

The first Kazekage says that their entire nation is covered in sand; he doesn't just specify his own village. So if he's asking for land from Konoha then he probably doesn't mean land that solely exists within Konoha itself but arable land in the Land of Fire they have access to..

So, since you mentioned transport of goods isn't a lot more likely he mentioned his nation because there isn't a single place in his land that can trade products with? Again he is arguing with the Hokage not the Lords and he very specifically stated "Konoha to share arable land with us" that let's clear than Konoha owns it, he also talks about getting more money from the other kage to make up for the "loss of a bijuu" so all this let's clear it's about the village not the nation.

For the record here is the statement from the Naruto Shinden novel that Nami Kami mentioned above. It is the closest thing to an official statement we have on population in Konoha:

This should strongly discourage the idea that there were over 1.6 million people living in Konoha during the Naruto series. Given that the number of Shinobi that Konoha can field in an army is around 16,000 shinobi or less.

Nothing there actually contradicts or "strongly discourages". Also people have a misconception that the 16 000 were all the shinobi they had available when it is clearly not, there were only chunin and jounin, I will remind you that in the begining of Naruto it's stated by third Hokage that the chunin exam limits the number of ninjas that reach Chunin in order to keep the balance in power within each village, meaning those 16 000 are actually an elite of powerful ninjas and not a full force

 

[Damage3245]

I realize I'm probably the last person who should be questioning the novels given how much I use them. The irony is not lost on me.
But don't you think that a lore column written by Kodachi (the main Boruto writer at the time), in collaboration with Kishimoto, for the official Boruto manga should take precedence over an exerpt from a novel not written by either? Especially when we consider that the information from the Shinobi Hiden Column actually came after the Novel's. Naruto Shinden was released on May 2, 2018. Whereas Boruto Chapter 32 (where the column was attached) came out in March 11, 2019. So technically, even if both sources are equal, the Hiden Column is the more up-to-date source of information.


That being said, I've yet to read the final posts from you and Arc fully, as I've been a bit short on time today. But I'll cast my vote down later when I get a chance to read through everything fully.

If Kodachi had explicitly written "There's a population of over a million people inside Konoha's walls" then I'd agree with you, but I don't think the statement from him is as straightforward as that.

Kodachi's statement is speaking generally about the nation, not the population of just the city.

 

[Nami_Kami]

I do have to say, though, while there is the counter-statement I provided, in Naruto, most the people we see in the village are non-Ninja, and even the Uchiha, who are the top Clan in Konoha, compose of mostly normal citizens. So honestly the citizen to Shinobi ratio is quite weird.

According to the Shinden novel: The majority was Shinobi.
According to Kodaichi or Ikemoto: The majority are citizens
According to the fanbook: There are a lot of citizens.
Going by certain things seen in the manga: The majority seem to be citizens.

So it's not clear-cut regardless of which side you argue for. Ikemoto's statement is as direct as the novel's, and they conflict. But the manga does definitelt seem to support Ikemoto more. Every time we see crowds it's mostly citizens.

It's important to give this topic much thought.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

If Kodachi had explicitly written "There's a population of over a million people inside Konoha's walls" then I'd agree with you, but I don't think the statement from him is as straightforward as that.

Kodachi's statement is speaking generally about the nation, not the population of just the city.

My response to those concerns is pretty much a combination of what Suigetsu and Nami_Kami already said.

I think there's a whole lot more in the series pointing towards the population being mostly made up of non-Shinobi. The fact is, the 13,000-16,000 Shinobi that were deployed during the 4th Ninja War are the cream of the crop. They only sent Chunin and Jonin to fight. And we know that the higher ranks are way less numerous than the lower ones, as it's rather difficult to gain promotion. So the 13k-16k figure doesn't even cover the majority of the Shinobi, let alone the total population when we factor in the regular citizens.
Also it just makes more logical sense for there to be more citizens/non-Shinobi within Konoha as I don't believe the literal assassins would be maintaining the day-to-day maintenance of a full city. We even had instances where most of Konoha's Shinobi force were deployed on missions, such post-Konoha Crush for example. Yet Konoha wasn't a ghost town or anything.

 

[Damage3245]

My response to those concerns is pretty much a combination of what Suigetsu and Nami_Kami already said.

I think there's a whole lot more in the series pointing towards the population being mostly made up of non-Shinobi. The fact is, the 13,000-16,000 Shinobi that were deployed during the 4th Ninja War are the cream of the crop. They only sent Chunin and Jonin to fight. And we know that the higher ranks are way less numerous than the lower ones, as it's rather difficult to gain promotion. So the 13k-16k figure doesn't even cover the majority of the Shinobi, let alone the total population when we factor in the regular citizens.
Also it just makes more logical sense for there to be more citizens/non-Shinobi within Konoha as I don't believe the literal assassins would be maintaining the day-to-day maintenance of a full city. We even had instances where most of Konoha's Shinobi force were deployed on missions, such post-Konoha Crush for example. Yet Konoha wasn't a ghost town or anything.

Okay, fair enough. I just don't think both statements are necessarily in complete contrast. And there's a whole lot more to the discussion than just that.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

My response to those concerns is pretty much a combination of what Suigetsu and Nami_Kami already said.

I think there's a whole lot more in the series pointing towards the population being mostly made up of non-Shinobi. The fact is, the 13,000-16,000 Shinobi that were deployed during the 4th Ninja War are the cream of the crop. They only sent Chunin and Jonin to fight. And we know that the higher ranks are way less numerous than the lower ones, as it's rather difficult to gain promotion. So the 13k-16k figure doesn't even cover the majority of the Shinobi, let alone the total population when we factor in the regular citizens.

By official data about the chunin exam there were a total of 153 participants of which only 9 actually reached the third stage (although Dozu died) from those 9 only 1 become chunin, even if we assume the interruption changed stuff only like 6% actually reached the 3rd stage so those 80000 ninjas of the 5 countries make up at best about 6% of the total amount of ninjas who completed the academy

 

[Nami_Kami]

By official data about the chunin exam there were a total of 153 participants of which only 9 actually reached the third stage (although Dozu died) from those 9 only 1 become chunin, even if we assume the interruption changed stuff only like 6% actually reached the 3rd stage so those 80000 ninjas of the 5 countries make up at best about 6% of the total amount of ninjas who completed the academy

Actually that's something I never thought of. Most Shinobi don't even get to become Chunin.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I can understand Damage's concerns, I still feel as if the counterarguments from Suigetsuhyugs are making most sense to me.

 

[Damage3245]

While I can understand Damage's concerns, I still feel as if the counterarguments from Suigetsuhyugs are making most sense to me.

Which parts? Because I don't think it could be shown to be clearer that Arc7's value is an outlier?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Which parts? Because I don't think it could be shown to be clearer that Arc7's value is an outlier?

Maybe 120km might be too much but 2km is way too little.

 

[Damage3245]

Maybe 120km might be too much but 2km is way too little.

I think the value you should be comparing is 124 km Vs 4.8 km.

Or 62 km Vs 2.4 km.

Not 120 km Vs 2 km.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I think the value you should be comparing is 124 km Vs 4.8 km.

Or 62 km Vs 2.4 km.

Not 120 km Vs 2 km.

OK my bad, but you get my point, it's way too small.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

By official data about the chunin exam there were a total of 153 participants of which only 9 actually reached the third stage (although Dozu died) from those 9 only 1 become chunin, even if we assume the interruption changed stuff only like 6% actually reached the 3rd stage so those 80000 ninjas of the 5 countries make up at best about 6% of the total amount of ninjas who completed the academy

One of the main reasons little to no one became Chunin has to do with the plot involving the Leaf/Sand Village unfolding. And shortly after, Gaara's team were also implied to have been made Chunin fairly early.

But yeah, the village being surrounded by bigger forests, mountains, and the fact that 16,000 is actually considered a huge minority compared to the population are all good points to consider.

 

[Damage3245]

OK my bad, but you get my point, it's way too small.

Except for the part where I've shown other panels in the series that are more consistent with that value.

There hasn't been a single panel presented yet that supports the calc in the OP

 

[Damage3245]

One of the main reasons little to no one became Chunin has to do with the plot involving the Leaf/Sand Village unfolding. And shortly after, Gaara's team were also implied to have been made Chunin fairly early.

But yeah, the village being surrounded by bigger forests, mountains, and the fact that 16,000 is actually considered a huge minority compared to the population are all good points to consider.

Also several of the shinobi participating in that particular chunin exams aren't shinobi from Konoha so surely they wouldn't count in the proportion of Konoha shinobi.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

One of the main reasons little to no one became Chunin has to do with the plot involving the Leaf/Sand Village unfolding. And shortly after, Gaara's team were also implied to have been made Chunin fairly early.

My calc of 6% accounts for every ninja who reach the 3rd stage passed which obviously didn't happen, also didn't Gaara become chunin during the timeskip? I think there are 2 chunin exams per year if i'm not mistaken.

Except for the part where I've shown other panels in the series that are more consistent with that value.

There hasn't been a single panel presented yet that supports the calc in the OP

Well that's what being discussed but by Arc's points the narrative supports a bigger size, also as I mentioned you "cheated" there by using the same frame in 2 different calcs, I also didn't like the incredubility argument you shown before, and I don't really like using the small objects to pixel scale. Overall I agree more with the OP

Also several of the shinobi participating in that particular chunin exams aren't shinobi from Konoha so surely they wouldn't count in the proportion of Konoha shinobi.

If you make the calcs with 80k- 6% then would get about 1.3M in total and over 200k shinobi of each nation

edit: Any of the values I gave in a low ball since we know that only a select few were recommended to the chunin exam instead of all the genin, so in fact the final value are the number of shinobi who passed through the academy and attempted the chunin exam

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My calc of 6% accounts for every ninja who reach the 3rd stage passed which obviously didn't happen, also didn't Gaara become chunin during the timeskip? I think there are 2 chunin exams per year if i'm not mistaken.

Not sure if exact details are known, but I do know Kunkuro and Temari were both Jonin and Gaara was the Kazekage by the time the Chunin Exams that lead to Sakura, Team Kurinai, Team Asuma, and Team Gai all becoming Chunin with Neji going straight to Jonin took place.

Then again, you're quite correct in other parts, 80,000 would still be 16,000 from average Shinobi Village despite Chunin exams being less than 6% actually making it there.