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Yeah and I'm pretty sure even amongst E strength servants Medea is pretty weak physically
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Fate Servant Tiering CRT continued
- Thread starter DragonEmperor23
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Isn't their end their stamina
AP has to be = durability or they would be hurt when they attack
AP has to be = durability or they would be hurt when they attack
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- #44
Yeah, Spartacus has EX END, that doesn't mean that he's a stone wall that can tank any physical damage from any other servant.
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Do you have scans of that meaning what it means in Fate?
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This is from the fate/glossary which had both EN/JP/CN translations. This is a screenshot of what the glossary has to say about the "Parameter rule" here is the link [ https://i.imgur.com/85Gz6ME.jpg ]
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| Rank | Value | + | ++ | +++ |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| A | 50 | 100 | 150 | 200 |
| B | 40 | 80 | 120 | 160 |
| C | 30 | 60 | 90 | 120 |
| D | 20 | 40 | 60 | 80 |
| E | 10 | 20 | 30 | 40 |
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I was talking about END meaning durability, not the Parameters themselves.
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I know I just wanted to put the chart in incase anyone wanted to see it
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I don't know if this scales to anyone so i will toss it out there just in case assuming its scaleable at all lol
"a-anyway, he prided himself at being the strongest when it comes to siege battles.
He uses dual long-sword/throwing spear called Durindana, and by throwing it he managed to pierce through six of the barriers of "Rho Aias: Seven Rings that Cover the Fiery Heavens," which boasts the greatest rank of toughness against projectiles.
In order to settle things once and for all with him, Achilles challenged him to a sink-or-swim duel, where he temporarily gave up his immortality. Unable to resist the temptation of getting the chance to take Achilles' life, Hector accepted the one-on-one duel and was defeated by a paper-thin difference in skill.
To Achilles, Hector is one of the top three people he never wants to fight again, whether it is before or after his death. The remaining two are Penthesilea and Chiron."
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/he.hector ]
- Hector vs Achilles when they were alive.
"The Miniature World Enclosed by the Azure Sky. Achilles' trump card which protects the wielder by deploying a miniature world. A divine armament created by the hands of the blacksmith god Hephaestus. It can event against nearly any attack, whether it be from an Anti-Unit, Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress or even Anti-Country Noble Phantasm. However, due to this Noble Phantasm's nature, it is weak against Anti-World Noble Phantasms alone."
- Glossary description of Achilles Cosmos.
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/a.achilles-cosmos ]
"when this is combined with Jack's skill "Information Erasure," she can act more than sufficiently as a member of the Assassin class.
However, though her Noble Phantasm's power is great, its damage is determined by the target's resistance to curses. It is difficult for "Maria the Ripper" to deal its full power just as planned against enemies, except for modern day Heroic Spirits. Only if she has a Master that is the best in terms of magecraft and all three conditions are fulfilled can this Noble Phantasm have power equal to the average "Zabaniya" used by the Hassans."
- Jack the Rippers Noble Phantasm
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/ma.maria-the-ripper ]
"He is truly second-rate as a Servant. He lacks the ability to be first-rate, and even if his abundant Noble Phantasms give him a bit of an advantage, he would be overwhelmingly beaten by someone powerful like a Saber-class Servant due to the difference in pure strength.
However, if you consider him as a single chess piece among many in the Great Holy Grail War, his abundant Noble Phantasms can expand the breadth of his team's tactics, and his Noble Phantasms which can make the enemy incapable of moving or fall into confusion are suited to keeping the enemy in place."
- Astolfo
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/ku.rider-of-black ]
" He is without a doubt first rate as a Servant. Even among the Servants from Greek legend, he boasts of power that ranks next to Heracles. He also has an abnormally abundant number of Noble Phantasms. "
- Achilles
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/a.rider-of-red ]
" Her Noble Phantasm also only reaches B rank by making a suicide attack, while the rest of the time its destructive power is at best C~D rank. Most likely, she would be incapable of winning in either a normal Holy Grail War or the Great Holy Grail War unless she had great luck and her Master had excellent judgement. "
- Frankestien (Just in case we are allowing rank scaling.)
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/ku.berserker-of-black ]
[place holder. ]
This is where i left off reading on Noble Phantasm's in the glossaries just in case anyone else wants to do it. Im taking a break lol. idk if any of this helps though.... [ https://www.tmdict.com/en/search?q=Noble ]
"a-anyway, he prided himself at being the strongest when it comes to siege battles.
He uses dual long-sword/throwing spear called Durindana, and by throwing it he managed to pierce through six of the barriers of "Rho Aias: Seven Rings that Cover the Fiery Heavens," which boasts the greatest rank of toughness against projectiles.
In order to settle things once and for all with him, Achilles challenged him to a sink-or-swim duel, where he temporarily gave up his immortality. Unable to resist the temptation of getting the chance to take Achilles' life, Hector accepted the one-on-one duel and was defeated by a paper-thin difference in skill.
To Achilles, Hector is one of the top three people he never wants to fight again, whether it is before or after his death. The remaining two are Penthesilea and Chiron."
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/he.hector ]
- Hector vs Achilles when they were alive.
"The Miniature World Enclosed by the Azure Sky. Achilles' trump card which protects the wielder by deploying a miniature world. A divine armament created by the hands of the blacksmith god Hephaestus. It can event against nearly any attack, whether it be from an Anti-Unit, Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress or even Anti-Country Noble Phantasm. However, due to this Noble Phantasm's nature, it is weak against Anti-World Noble Phantasms alone."
- Glossary description of Achilles Cosmos.
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/a.achilles-cosmos ]
"when this is combined with Jack's skill "Information Erasure," she can act more than sufficiently as a member of the Assassin class.
However, though her Noble Phantasm's power is great, its damage is determined by the target's resistance to curses. It is difficult for "Maria the Ripper" to deal its full power just as planned against enemies, except for modern day Heroic Spirits. Only if she has a Master that is the best in terms of magecraft and all three conditions are fulfilled can this Noble Phantasm have power equal to the average "Zabaniya" used by the Hassans."
- Jack the Rippers Noble Phantasm
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/ma.maria-the-ripper ]
"He is truly second-rate as a Servant. He lacks the ability to be first-rate, and even if his abundant Noble Phantasms give him a bit of an advantage, he would be overwhelmingly beaten by someone powerful like a Saber-class Servant due to the difference in pure strength.
However, if you consider him as a single chess piece among many in the Great Holy Grail War, his abundant Noble Phantasms can expand the breadth of his team's tactics, and his Noble Phantasms which can make the enemy incapable of moving or fall into confusion are suited to keeping the enemy in place."
- Astolfo
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/ku.rider-of-black ]
" He is without a doubt first rate as a Servant. Even among the Servants from Greek legend, he boasts of power that ranks next to Heracles. He also has an abnormally abundant number of Noble Phantasms. "
- Achilles
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/a.rider-of-red ]
" Her Noble Phantasm also only reaches B rank by making a suicide attack, while the rest of the time its destructive power is at best C~D rank. Most likely, she would be incapable of winning in either a normal Holy Grail War or the Great Holy Grail War unless she had great luck and her Master had excellent judgement. "
- Frankestien (Just in case we are allowing rank scaling.)
[ https://www.tmdict.com/en/ku.berserker-of-black ]
[place holder. ]
This is where i left off reading on Noble Phantasm's in the glossaries just in case anyone else wants to do it. Im taking a break lol. idk if any of this helps though.... [ https://www.tmdict.com/en/search?q=Noble ]
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It doesn't work like that. The plus sign indicates that sometimes they can momentarily double their Rank value, so A+ = 50/100, B+ = 40/80, etc. Normally Herk operates with A Rank STR.DragonEmperor23 said:
And I'm hundred percent sure that this type of thinking about using the Parameters is why we have Servants with lower Ranks in STR having a higher physical striking power than this idea would suggest, so you still aren't solving that problem.
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But Asterios and Gorgon have skills that makes their stats A++, how would this be momentarily? Also, where is it mentioned that Herc is able to double his rank value?
"And I'm hundred percent sure that this type of thinking about using the Parameters is why we have Servants with lower Ranks in STR having a higher physical striking power than this idea would suggest, so you still aren't solving that problem."
I'm just trying to think of something.
"And I'm hundred percent sure that this type of thinking about using the Parameters is why we have Servants with lower Ranks in STR having a higher physical striking power than this idea would suggest, so you still aren't solving that problem."
I'm just trying to think of something.
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It's not a momentary boost
He's confusing it with the fact that it's stated a B+ could momentarily overpower an A Rank by boosting even further that also only applies to nps and abilities not stats
He's confusing it with the fact that it's stated a B+ could momentarily overpower an A Rank by boosting even further that also only applies to nps and abilities not stats
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Increases again. Asterios can go from 50 to 150, as does Gorgon and it's explicitly due to them being monsters that they can have such a high value.DragonEmperor23 said:
It's part of the Parameter Rules. Plus = doubling, minus = halving.
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B+ is still weaker than A rank [ https://i.imgur.com/85Gz6ME.jpg ] it could just offset a hit so avoid serious damage at most if were taking about striking strength with a swing of a sword or something.
Oh, yeah like "Monsterous strength" that only magical beast are supposed to have which is a pssive skill isn't it?
Just as Maddness Enchantment is supposed to raise all values by 1 rank, monsterous strength might be able to do the same for only the strength stat.
Oh, yeah like "Monsterous strength" that only magical beast are supposed to have which is a pssive skill isn't it?
Just as Maddness Enchantment is supposed to raise all values by 1 rank, monsterous strength might be able to do the same for only the strength stat.
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"Now, things like B+ and A+ represent the unique ability to multiply these numerical values for just an instant. In other words, an ability ranked B+ would normally be weaker than an ability ranked A, but can momentarily exceed it by doubling its own power from 40 to 80. Heroic Spirits with A+ (plus) are rare, those with A++ (double plus) are extraordinary, and those with A+++ (triple plus) are in a class all their own."
Fate/side material
Fate/side material
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A set of rules for representing the rank of a particular status. They range from A~E. EX is in a league of its own, representing powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless. If we assign numbers to ranks, then E=10, with each subsequent rank increasing by +10. Ranks with "+" such as A+ and B+ can momentarily multiply its associated numerical value. For instance, C+(30) can temporarily boost its power to 60, exceeding Rank A (50). Also, "++" represents multiply by three times.
Fate/CM 3
It applies to all stats, not just NPs.
Fate/CM 3
It applies to all stats, not just NPs.
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The momentary buff refers exclusively to abilties and nps
Stats are permanently modified
Stats are permanently modified
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Where are you getting "goes from"? They get that skill from being unnaturally strong. It's not something that makes them stronger.
Are you getting it being momentary from this? " There are two different "modifiers" that can be applied to ranks, + and -. The "+" modifier represents the capacity of a temporary boost in power, allowing a weapon or ability of a lower rank to surpass a higher rank for a moment. While a B+ is generally weaker than an A, B+ may momentarily exceed A by doubling its own power. "
That's for Noble Phantasms.
" + modifiers still temporarily double their power for a moment.[10] They are on a higher scale than regular attacks, with a Noble Phantasm of C Rank being the equivalent of an A+ or A Rank regular attack. "
Where on the other hand, physical attributes are described like this.
" Servants with + modifiers are thought to be extraordinary.[8]Heroic Spirits possessing A+ level attributes are rare, those possessing A++ attributes are extraordinary, those possessing A+++ attributes are in a class of their own, and those possessing EX attributes have truly exceptional abilities that fall outside of the numerical ranking scale."
There's no indication that them having that attribute is temporary or it would have been mentioned here while talking about how good a + is on a Servant. But on the Noble Phantasm section it specifies that it is a temporary boost.
Are you getting it being momentary from this? " There are two different "modifiers" that can be applied to ranks, + and -. The "+" modifier represents the capacity of a temporary boost in power, allowing a weapon or ability of a lower rank to surpass a higher rank for a moment. While a B+ is generally weaker than an A, B+ may momentarily exceed A by doubling its own power. "
That's for Noble Phantasms.
" + modifiers still temporarily double their power for a moment.[10] They are on a higher scale than regular attacks, with a Noble Phantasm of C Rank being the equivalent of an A+ or A Rank regular attack. "
Where on the other hand, physical attributes are described like this.
" Servants with + modifiers are thought to be extraordinary.[8]Heroic Spirits possessing A+ level attributes are rare, those possessing A++ attributes are extraordinary, those possessing A+++ attributes are in a class of their own, and those possessing EX attributes have truly exceptional abilities that fall outside of the numerical ranking scale."
There's no indication that them having that attribute is temporary or it would have been mentioned here while talking about how good a + is on a Servant. But on the Noble Phantasm section it specifies that it is a temporary boost.
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Which is why Gil's line right after shouldn't refers to his NP Rank and general ability(Paramaeters), oh wait it does.Paul Frank said:
Now, things like B+ and A+ represent the unique ability to multiply these numerical values for just an instant. In other words, an ability ranked B+ would normally be weaker than an ability ranked A, but can momentarily exceed it by doubling its own power from 40 to 80. Heroic Spirits with A+ (plus) are rare, those with A++ (double plus) are extraordinary, and those with A+++ (triple plus) are in a class all their own.
Also, a truly exceptional ability score that falls outside the numerical ranking scale is represented by an EX. Though Gilgamesh's ability scores generally aren't very impressive, his EX rank Noble Phantasm parameter clearly distinguishes him from the other Heroic Spirits.
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I don't think I've ever seen this being mentioned anywhere in series. I think them able able to multiply their strength or speed by twice or thrice would have been said at least once.
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From the cited material at the bottom of the page you are using?
And I already posted the CM 3 lines as well as Gil's part which says it refers to all parameters. Besides, did you not see the word "modifiers" right there in your quote? It's clearly not a permanent thing unless stated otherwise.
And I already posted the CM 3 lines as well as Gil's part which says it refers to all parameters. Besides, did you not see the word "modifiers" right there in your quote? It's clearly not a permanent thing unless stated otherwise.
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It literally says his ability scores aren't good but his noble phantasm parameter is
Its referring to two different things
Its referring to two different things
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It's in the cited side material.DragonEmperor23 said:
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Uh huh. Which is why we just conveniently ignore his other average stats and CM 3 where it's pretty clear what the context is.Paul Frank said:
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I'm talking about by the characters as opposed to WoG. They mention stuff like Ranks and skills for all sorts of things, but never about this stat boost.
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Nasu loves his retcons.
Enough people have a static + to their parameters that the part where it's only momentary has been long since retconned.
Enough people have a static + to their parameters that the part where it's only momentary has been long since retconned.
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I think its the skill "Monsterous Strength" that gives Asterious and Gorgon their A++ tier stats from????
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It's not a retcon? It's been there since FSN. And you have yet to show that others actually have a permanent buff just because of the + and not anything else, so...Monarch Laciel said:
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Have you ever seen a hero with a + on their stats mention that their strength/agility/endurance/magic just got doubled?
No, because those stats are the static values, just like all other parameters.
No, because those stats are the static values, just like all other parameters.
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Because it's generally assumed that most people would know this since most fans are Japanese and have read his side materials and works. It's like every new maths course that requires you to have a basic understanding in some areas covered in the past years.DragonEmperor23 said:
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How about the fact that there are servants with permanent + modifiers
Like any servant with Natural Body or Monsterous Strength or Madneess Enchancement
Like any servant with Natural Body or Monsterous Strength or Madneess Enchancement
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Monstrous Strength
Monstrous Strength (µÇ¬Õèø, Kairiki?) is a Skill that temporarily grants a rank-up to one's Strength parameter for a time limit determined by the ranking of this Skill. This Skill is borne from the holder's nature as a monster or Demonic Beast.
Monstrous Strength (µÇ¬Õèø, Kairiki?) is a Skill that temporarily grants a rank-up to one's Strength parameter for a time limit determined by the ranking of this Skill. This Skill is borne from the holder's nature as a monster or Demonic Beast.
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I think he meant Natural Monster or Demon of Mutation, which are permanent.
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You say this but almost every Grail War they still bring that other stuff up again. The reader already knows it, it's the characters talking about it.RegisNex1232 said:
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Those are Rank ups, not Plus/Minus modifiers. That is two separate things.Monarch Laciel said:
Rank ups = C to B, B to A, D+ to C+, etc. A permanent boost in the letter Rank.
Plus/minus modifiers = A+ giving a temporary boost equivalent to double of the value of A.
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I don't thnk there's anything wrong with the current ratings. There's plenty of feats, statements and calcs which reflect it. And even many that suggest far higher ratings. Such as island destruction in Grand/Order.
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Some stuff is more relevant than the other, big deal. Doesn't change the fact that plus/minus modifiers exist and shouldn't be used like you were suggesting for AP/Striking power. Rank ups are irrelevant since you're ultimately dealing with the final Rank in this case.
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