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Fairy Tail 100 Year Quest Discussion Thread: Post-Void Saga

XXBenShapiroXx said:
the grass isn't greener on the other side, she isn't coming back, she has moved on and found something you will never possess, happiness with a partner capable of giving her what you never could, security. you offer nothing but whimpers in response to the trials of the world
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Eseseso said:
But when it occurs in like 60% of all upgrade threads, and for no reason other than "lol Upgrades suck" or "lol Eseseso suck", it's just so irritating.

There's no point to it other than be spiteful. It completely takes away from the spirit of this wiki!

I mean, yes Mitch did it once a bit back, but to be fair I annoy the hell out of him, and even then he eventually got around to looking them over and knocked it off.

@CNBA3

Are you the one in charge of the Fu-Reiju blog? Because he also thinks Irene > Acno
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I see your point, I Don’t recall a Fu-Reiju blog
 
Tohaku said:
Kinda confused on why people here think Spriggans have been eclipsed in power. Brandish's mp level was used as the benchmark for spriggan power and her power level is still very much relevant seeing as to how she could give Gajeel a powerup that allowed him to contend with dragon form Aldoron. While he didn't win, he was still able to put him to sleep which should count for a lot more than Suzaku's "victory" against Selene given the massive power difference between human form DG and Dragon form. A Slightly weakened Aldoron should still be much stronger than human form Selene. There's also things like less than 1% of Irene's power being able to contend with dragon force Nebal. And high enchanter class magic power being enough to KO a DDSK which is what Irene is at in base. When she goes all out her power enters another tier called Master enchant so full power Irene is much stronger than DDSK level. These things are pretty obvious and I think the only reason people have reservations about them is Selene's performance against Suzaku. That's why I'm pretty happy about Ignia vs Selene. Ignia already showed that he can casually produce way more power than Suzaku can in human form (which means Selene can too since they should be equal). If Selene and Ignia fight and it's even, that'll finally prove that Selene was lying about her power compared to Suzaku's. In any case, Spriggan level seems to still be relevant in the story.
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Why would Selene lie? The whole point of Suzaku vs Selene is to establish they’re comparable… I mean Natsu and Suzaku took minimal damage from Ignia’s point blank attack

Also there’s literally nothing that has Irene and August above the DDSK
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Why would Selene lie? The whole point of Suzaku vs Selene is to establish they’re comparable… I mean Natsu and Suzaku took minimal damage from Ignia’s point blank attack

Also there’s literally nothing that has Irene and August above the DDSK
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Also, her making Gajeel strong enough to box with a weakened Dragon Aldo doesn't mean it was because her magic power is that strong, Gajeel's strength came from his size, which Brandish can control. She didn't instill her magic power in him, she just used her ability to make him super large.
 
Tohaku said:
Because She's lied about literally everything else. Even in the same breath that she said Suzaku was her peer she said the first task of the DDSK would be to kill elefseria. The very next chapter that turned out to be a lie. And Natsu and Suzaku taking minimal damage from Ignia's casual attack is to be expected. Dragon slayers have always had much higher defense than attack power and Natsu's element is fire anyway. The fact of the matter remains that Suzaku and Natsu couldn't even damage the walls but Ignia could blow up an entire section of the labyrinth.

Feats against a dragon form dragon god, and a tier below Irene's max power being enough to KO a DDSK begs to differ. Everything will be settled next chapter.
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Being a High Enchanter is based on skill, not raw power

For example, Erza’s stronger than Wendy, but has far less skilled Enchantments
 
Tohaku said:
I don't get this. The size comes from her magic power. How big something gets is proportionate to how much magic power she expends and the feats the enlarged thing is capable of would scale. Aldoron became Acno level by absorbing power for many years and that made his body much larger. He has a much larger body than all the other Dragon gods, but the feats he has that are due to size would still scale to the others since the size was achieved through magic. In the same way, feats from Brandish's gigantification would scale to the other spriggans who have similar or greater magic power than her.
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She’s weaker than X792 Base Natsu, with X793 Base Gajeel matching an even stronger Base Natsu

She just amped Gajeel to be stronger than normal, big Brandish wouldn’t be as strong as big Gajeel
 
Tohaku said:
Uh no Irene was specifically praising Wendy's magic power when saying she had become high enchanter class. Wendy wasn't even the one that performed these enchants so how would Irene be praising her skill? Irene was saying that Wendy had enough MP to support these enchants which made her high enchanter class.

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Irene>Human Form Dragon Gods is cap, no matter how ya look at it
 
How can Brandish be above base Natsu if a weaker base Natsu two shot someone amped to be even stronger than her? This argument doesn't pan out. Regarding Selene lying, I doubt she would have sent the DDK on their quest if they were significantly weaker than her. So not only does her lying about one thing not necessarily mean she was lying about the other, Brandish's MP being the thing to make Gajeel so strong doesn't make sense either given she made him as big as her magic would allow, and she didn't seem all that tired afterwards, implying the act of making someone big isn't linked to her power, its an ability.
 
Tohaku said:
If Selene was lying then this becomes a non issue.
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No not really, because regardless of statements, Suzaku still beat her Human Form in a direct 1v1 scenario… Which is then supported by Irene’s statement and also how he tanked an attack from Human Form Ignia. I’m also like 99% sure he’s about to have some feats against Dragon Form Ignia or Selene.
Tohaku said:
The same Natsu couldn't do much of anything to Aldoron even with an FDK spell. It's clear that the vast majority of the power Gajeel had there came from Brandish's amp. The only reason Brandish didn't enlarge herself is that they needed a Dragon Slayer to be able to do any damage. I'm not sure why you rate X792 Brandish how you do but current Brandish has feats to say she's stronger than base Natsu.
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Bruh, what on earth are you talking about? FDKM Natsu could deal 1 point of damage to Aldoron while Brandish’s magic just flat out didn’t work against him. Brandish’s gigantification is a huge stat boost to whoever it is used on. It’s very much like Wendy using Enchantments on people. Wendy wouldn’t scale to Natsu just because she can buff him several times stronger than normal. Also a year has passed and it’s entirely possible that Brandish flat out got stronger. I mean the Oracion Seis and Makarov got stronger passively by sitting on their asses, so I wouldn’t be surprised, that’s just how power creep works.
Tohaku said:
Uh no Irene was specifically praising Wendy's magic power when saying she had become high enchanter class. Wendy wasn't even the one that performed these enchants so how would Irene be praising her skill? Irene was saying that Wendy had enough MP to support these enchants which made her high enchanter class.

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I take Irene’s statement as meaning that Wendy now has the skill to be a High Enchanter, but even if it’s power based, I can agree that Base Wendy is only Base Irene level and “At most 5-B” is cap

I can agree to that, I mean anything to make DragonGamer seethe
 
So Brandish's MP making Gajeel strong doesn't work because her MP is already lower than his because this base Gajeel is equal to current base Natsu, who is stronger than the base Natsu who two shot a Neinhart amped by Irene to be so strong Brandish couldn't do anything to him. So that would mean Giant Gajeel's power came from his size, because the way he got big compared to Aldo getting big is different. Gajeel got big because of her ability to gigantify, not swelling with magic power over the course of hundreds of years like Aldo did. The context of each one getting big is completely different, so using the argument of comparison doesn't pan out. As Mitch said, Wendy can enchant Natsu to be several times stronger, that doesn't mean she herself is several times stronger than he is.
 
Tohaku said:
Selene wanted to lose though. She even announced that she was going to lose in the chapter prior. It's very much possible that she lowered her defenses and put on a show to make Suzaku think he won. If Suzaku gets feats against Dragon form Ignia and Selene in base, That'd just make no sense because even if you took his win against Selene at face value, that was still his max power and Dragon forms are massively stronger than human forms. But this is FT so anything can happen.

Brandish's magic is a completely different type of spell than Natsu's though. Natsu's magic doesn't have a restriction of being completely ineffective if the target has too much mp. And if Brandish got stronger the feats would still scale to her and the stronger Spriggans since irene definitely didn't get any stronger and still seems to be above her.

Wendy being at the level of base Irene seems to be the most accurate based on the enchanter classes.
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Suzaku straight up asks 'did you throw the fight to get close to us', and she says no, I am no match for you in my human form, then stomps Georg to establish dominance. Those are the sequence of events. Nothing implies she is lying about this particular statement.
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Suzaku straight up asks 'did you throw the fight to get close to us', and she says no, I am no match for you in my human form, then stomps Georg to establish dominance. Those are the sequence of events. Nothing implies she is lying about this particular statement.
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It’s just Selene and Ignia fans coping with how DDSK’s are Human Dragon God level and losing to people like Wendy and Erza
 
Tohaku said:
Selene wanted to lose though. She even announced that she was going to lose in the chapter prior. It's very much possible that she lowered her defenses and put on a show to make Suzaku think he won. If Suzaku gets feats against Dragon form Ignia and Selene in base, That'd just make no sense because even if you took his win against Selene at face value, that was still his max power and Dragon forms are massively stronger than human forms. But this is FT so anything can happen.

Brandish's magic is a completely different type of spell than Natsu's though. Natsu's magic doesn't have a restriction of being completely ineffective if the target has too much mp. And if Brandish got stronger the feats would still scale to her and the stronger Spriggans since irene definitely didn't get any stronger and still seems to be above her.

Wendy being at the level of base Irene seems to be the most accurate based on the enchanter classes.
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Enhanced Neinhart is stronger than Brandish, Base Natsu is stronger than Enhanced Neinhart and beat him with two punches

X792 Spriggans are fodder. I don’t agree with your Brandish take, but even if it was correct, it just means Brandish got stronger over a year. Crazier things have happened
 
Tohaku said:
Gajeel's power came from his size. His size came from Brandish's mp. To me this is the same type of scaling as Selene's moon feat. The moon was made bigger through her magic power. Other's scale to that magic power (DDSK potentially pending but DGs definitely). So they scale to the feat. Based on your logic Selene wouldn't even scale to her own feat since it's "Just an ability".
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No, Selene making the moon big was specifically mentioned as being a consequence of her magic power with it flooding the dimensions. No such statement has been made for Brandish and the way she makes people big or small. If anything it seems to bypass dura or magic power due to her effected Natsu who was stronger than her.
 
You know, with all the One Piece characters put against other One Piece characters, how come we Fairy Tail fans don't do the same thing?
 
Tohaku said:
Also about the Neinhart thing. Wasn't he just given resistance against status effects? The same Natsu had to go FDKM and use at the time one of his strongest attacks to KO Jacob so I doubt base Natsu is massively stronger than a spriggan enhanced above spriggans. Either that or that was a FOE moment for Natsu.
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Natsu was holding back against Jacob in the guild hall and was clearly able to damage him with his blows. Him using FDKM was to showcase he can use that ability on his own. Natsu was going overboard most likely, given him evaporating the lake. And Natsu wasn't all that riled up against Neinhart, just determined, so there is nothing concrete to wave this off as FoE
 
Tohaku said:
Also about the Neinhart thing. Wasn't he just given resistance against status effects? The same Natsu had to go FDKM and use at the time one of his strongest attacks to KO Jacob so I doubt base Natsu is massively stronger than a spriggan enhanced above spriggans. Either that or that was a FOE moment for Natsu.
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Jacob>Enhanced Neinhart>Brandish
 
Eseseso said:
But how about, say, Base Natsu vs Base Erza?

Or other people on a similar power level?

Like 2 Brandish-Tier Spriggans?
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Base Natsu downscales from his FDKM that could fight and take attacks from Suzaku. His base blows were still able to damage Suzaku. Base Erza has no feats against against anyone of that caliber, as she needed to use her strongest armors to fight Misaki. So currently Natsu is stronger base to base. Base Erza<Base Natsu<Strongest Armors Erza<FDKM Natsu<CHC+ High Enchant Erza<<<<<< DF + FDKM Natsu
 
Tohaku said:
Is Brandish's magic not also a direct consequence of her magic? And how would it bypass magic power if Aldoron's magic power was too strong for it to work on him?

Also Natsu didn't even do that much damage to the surrounding area when he beat Neinhart. I doubt he was holding back in base for that sake. Remember Natsu was considering using his trump card Igneel tatoo when he just felt Brandish and Ajeel's mp. That seems like an overkill reaction if he's stronger in base. Like I said earlier the Neinhart thing is probably an FOE moment for Natsu.
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Everyone always brings up the Igneel’s arm thing. First of all, that’s complete PIS considering that power was ******* up Base Zeref, who’s massively above Brandish. That scene was clearly just false hype Hiro used for Spriggans, but it’s very clearly shown without that power, Natsu was above most Spriggans and could fight them with just his own power
 
Tohaku said:
Is Brandish's magic not also a direct consequence of her magic? And how would it bypass magic power if Aldoron's magic power was too strong for it to work on him?

Also Natsu didn't even do that much damage to the surrounding area when he beat Neinhart. I doubt he was holding back in base for that sake. Remember Natsu was considering using his trump card Igneel tatoo when he just felt Brandish and Ajeel's mp. That seems like an overkill reaction if he's stronger in base. Like I said earlier the Neinhart thing is probably an FOE moment for Natsu.
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Aldo was massively stronger compared to Brandish as opposed to the gap between Natsu and her. Given the gaps between them we know of, this suggests her magic isn't tied to her MP, and it take someone WAY above her for it to not work. Just like with END moving in stopped time possibly being because he was just hilariously stronger than Dimiria.

Also using the argument of the damage done to the surrounding area as evidence for someone's strength doesn't work. FH Zeref and SFOE Natsu's fist clash didn't even destroy the guild hall. And again, you can't wave his feat against Neinhart away as FOE given FOE only activated when he is super worked up, and his general attitude towards Neinhart was annoyance and 'this dude needs to get out of our way'. Even Brandish told Natsu to not fight him, implying he was above her in that moment.
 
Also, the context of Selene making the moon big boils down to a raw power feat, her raw magic made the moon big in response, not her casting a spell the specifically makes the moon big. Brandish having that much raw power doesn't work because we know for a fact who scales above her. We also know because of that her magic can work on people stronger than her, to a certain degree, which in turn means it isn't tied to her raw magic power. You pointing out it not working on Aldo only backs up the point of it working on those with higher magic power has a limit. This Selene and Brandish comparison isn't a very well fed point, because Brandish's magic specifically makes things bigger, and because of that they get stronger. We know this because her magic power wouldn't be enough to amp Gajeel to fight Aldo. We know this is different from the other abilities because she is making people stronger than herself bigger, which is perfectly consistent with what we know about her magic.
 
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Tohaku said:
What? That still means that her magic is tied to her mp. And it's not just about whether or not it can affect her target, but how much she can enlarge. The fact that Gejeel's size was the limit of her magic power means that how big or small things are made depend on how much magic she uses. How is this concept different than any other ability in the series? The higher the effect, the more mp required.

You were the one that brought it up first saying natsu wasn't going all out in base since he didn't want to damage the guild hall. I agree he wasn't going all out, just not in base. And he seemed pretty worked up to me in that scene. Also considering the fact that this came right after the scene of Gray stomping a Spriggan in base due to an emotion amp, I think FOE neatly explains the discrepancy in Natsu's performance against Jacob, and an enchanted Neinhart. Brandish even commented on him being stronger than he seemed which is characteristic of a sudden jump in power. If his MP was naturally at that level, his performance there wouldn't be chocking as she would have already sensed power greater than Neinharts.
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Already addressed the first part, secondly him not going all out in base against Jacob can work with his surge of strength against Neinhart, he merely stopped holding back. Gray vs Invel happening at the same time is just story. So it's still consistent. There is no discrepancy, Natsu didn't want to damage the guild hall, and him using FDKM was him showing off that he can still use it on his own. His surge of power is Natsu getting serious, as his demeanor implies. Every other time Natsu uses FoE, there is a huge outburst of anger, here there was not. His behavior is consistent when he uses FoE, his his attitude against Neinhart does not fit the bill. Besides, Natsu was conserving strength to fight Zeref and Acnologia.

And still, its possible Jacob is just stronger than Brandish and Neinhart, so Natsu using FDKM doesn't effect anything scaling wise against Brandish because he was fighting a weaker opponent.
 
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So if Brandish was stronger, than she could probably make Gajeel even bigger than previously. But this is the same as Wendy being able to cast stronger enchantments the stronger she gets. If Brandish is a 1, she could make things a 10 with her gigantification. Doesn't mean she is a 10.
 
Tohaku said:
When Zeref actually started trying he could easily match Natsu in that form. And how much stronger he'd be than the Spriggans with the form isn't really relevant since the form was still stronger than what he was capable of at the time. Him considering using it means that the Spriggans weren't opponents to take lightly (not people he can casually beat in base). So the only way he'd win in base is if he got a sudden boost in power that put him above what his base is normally capable of.

Consider the fact that Natsu could only do 1 out of 100 million to Aldoron. Base Gajeel isn't nearly as strong so normally a punch from base Gajeel wouldn't do anything. But the majority of the damage Gajeel did while he was big was just base punches. The power of his attacks grew proportionately to his size so the same would be true if Brandish made herself larger. Let's say Aldoron isn't a dragon so DS magic isn't needed to hurt him. And Brandish makes herself larger instead. Why would her attacks do significantly less damage than Gajeel's base strikes if the majority of the power comes from the size?
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Except he does go on to beat the Spriggans in base. I already went through with him holding back in base in the guild hall can work with his performance against Neinhart. Once again, this example your giving proves the point, she can amplify someone's abilities by making them big. Also base Gajeel is stronger than her, and tougher too, so she would probably do much worse even if Aldo wasn't a dragon. She would do less damage because the thing that is being amplified is weaker. Gajeel is a 2 that becomes a twenty, she is a one that would become a 10.
 
Tohaku said:
When Zeref actually started trying he could easily match Natsu in that form. And how much stronger he'd be than the Spriggans with the form isn't really relevant since the form was still stronger than what he was capable of at the time. Him considering using it means that the Spriggans weren't opponents to take lightly (not people he can casually beat in base). So the only way he'd win in base is if he got a sudden boost in power that put him above what his base is normally capable of.

Consider the fact that Natsu could only do 1 out of 100 million to Aldoron. Base Gajeel isn't nearly as strong so normally a punch from base Gajeel wouldn't do anything. But the majority of the damage Gajeel did while he was big was just base punches. The power of his attacks grew proportionately to his size so the same would be true if Brandish made herself larger. Let's say Aldoron isn't a dragon so DS magic isn't needed to hurt him. And Brandish makes herself larger instead. Why would her attacks do significantly less damage than Gajeel's base strikes if the majority of the power comes from the size?
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9Tj8bK0.gif
UDCqxrV.gif
 
Once again, Brandish making Gajeel big =/= Scaling to the feats that Gajeel's performs

Also once again, Irene is never stated to be above Wendy

Base Wendy is said to be the High Enchanter, not DF Wendy
 
Tohaku said:
Selene's magic specifically manipulates the moon so I don't see your point. Acnologia getting serious for example wouldn't have that same affect because he doesn't use moon magic. But he'd still scale to the effect since his mp is on the same level.


Dude you know how Mashima operates. When it comes to connecting emotional beats, there is no "just the story". And there's nothing that shows Natsu was holding back in base against Jacob. Again If Natsu latently had more MP in base than Spriggan level people, It would have been noted. Yes he was definitely conserving his strength for Zeref and Acnologia yet randomly decided to go full power against a fodder he could have beaten in base. Bravo your logic has circled you.

And if Jacob is still stronger than Brandish, then this makes an even better case for Spriggan power levels still being relevant.
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I've already run through these points. Selene making the moon big was a result of her getting a little serious, with her raw magic power flooding the dimensions. Natsu holding back in base against Jacob can work as I have outlined previously. It didn't need to be noted, we watch Natsu stomp two Spriggans on screen. Nothing implies that FDKM attack Natsu used was his full power, it seemed pretty casual. Don't be sarcastic, you are already grasping as it is, being snarky won't help your credibility. He was conserving his strength by not using DF.

I am more than happy to address any further arguments you have in the morning, unless someone else wants to take over.

The Spriggans aren't very relevant, a majority of them they got off screened and one-shot by weaker FT members.
 
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