Evidence for Lucifer being the Great Darkness

[Kuuzo7]

The purpose of this thread is to show that Dan Watters claim on Lucifer being the Great Darkness should not be as controversial as it seems.

Evidences have already been brought forward in the thread below, but did not address the seeming contradictions, such as the Great Darkness description in Swamp Thing #49, in which Zatara described the Great Darkness as being "more than Satan", emphasizing the disctinciton between these two figures. Thus, this thread will address this misconception in particular.
The thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/upside-down-man-great-evil-beast-revisions.112716/

As the various evidences show, the depiction of figures from the Sphere of the Gods depend on the context of the belief system, including Lucifer, supported by the evidence in the Sandman when Lucifer asked to Cain if he knew who was the Cainites, part of a Gnostic belief system in which the Universe was created by a Demiurge figure, which one of the names identified with this figure is "Samael". Interesting knowing that Mike Carey introduced this gnosticism when he was in charge of writing Lucifer, as he used the name "Samael" to identify Lucifer, in addition to the fact that Mike Carey's Lucifer was involved in the creation of the Universe.


Note the fact that Yaldabaoth, one of the other names of the Demiurge, was introduced as a later aspect of the Snake Which Created the World, in the Dreaming #10.

There is another evidence in the Spectre, in which there is an interesting discussion between the Spectre and Lucifer, because Lucifer is aware of the different belief systems around him, but doesn't care how he's depicted in the context of these belief systems.
[1] [2]

Therefore, Dan Watters unifying Lucifer and the Great Darkness is supported by the lore, in particular the function of belief allowing, roughly speaking, figures to become whoever (mainly other figures with common characteristics).

 

[Kuuzo7]

Bump

 

[Amakasu]

Yo kuzzo.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Yo kuzzo.

Yo

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69

What do you think about this?

 

[Deagonx]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69

What do you think about this?

Kuuzo is as knowledgeable as they come about DC, and he makes good points here.

 

[Sandman31]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69

What do you think about this?

I still think that we should separate the profiles

Samael is also the name of a fallen angel in jewish folklore who shares many similarities with satan/lucifer. Which make sense since the series is heavily, if not mainly, inspired by jewish lore. There's no reason to assume that Mike Carey is referencing the Gnostic Samael here instead of the Jewish one. Especially since in Gnosticism, Samael is just one of the names of God along with Yaldabaoth and Saklas. Saying that Mike Carey's Lucifer is the same entity as Yahweh doesn't make sense because they're definitely portrayed as different entities, with Yahwen even wanting to merge with Lucifer at the end of the run. If there's no other evidences in Mike Carey's run that its referring to the Gnostic Samael instead of the one in jewish folklore or any other version then I dont see why we should automatically assume that its referring to gnostic Samael when Samael is mainly a jewish folklore character

So what do I think?

There's no solid evidence here to handwave away the inconsistencies between the two books. The inconsistencies between Mike Carey's run and Dan Watters are more than Lucifer being the GBE so I think we should still make a separate key for Lucifer

If its about Sandman - Dan Watters run then I think you can argue that this can fit right in there, just as how all other stories that features an adversary can because the role of the Lucifer has as the darkness .

If this meant to say that Mike Carey and Dan Watters run have no inconsistencies then I disagree with that

 

[Amakasu]

I think it's more included in the belief system. Remember when Rama (if I remember correctly) showed lucifer his aspects and there were multiple aspects of lucifer? I propose that these forms are just a different viewpoint of lucifer kinda like the endless, tho lucifer in 2018 acts like an endless.

 

[Sandman31]

I think it's more included in the belief system. Remember when Ramain t (if I remember correctly) showed lucifer his aspects and there were multiple aspects of lucifer? I propose that these forms are just a different viewpoint of lucifer kinda like the endless, tho lucifer in 2018 acts like an endless.

Yeah, thats why I said I think this, along with other story, can fit the 2018 Lucifer (Which I think should have a different key)

 

[Amakasu]

Yeah, thats why I said I think this, along with other story, can fit the 2018 Lucifer (Which I think should have a different key)

Yeah, I agree with that.

 

[Musaabu02]

Me wondering why I saw Lucifer Morningstar fighting great darkness.....in Lucifer 2016
Tbh,I don't think dey are the same based on the fact we saw them as different characters who faced each other

 

[Kuuzo7]

I still think that we should separate the profiles

Let's see why.

Samael is also the name of a fallen angel in jewish folklore who shares many similarities with satan/lucifer. Which make sense since the series is heavily, if not mainly, inspired by jewish lore. There's no reason to assume that Mike Carey is referencing the Gnostic Samael here instead of the Jewish one. Especially since in Gnosticism, Samael is just one of the names of God along with Yaldabaoth and Saklas. Saying that Mike Carey's Lucifer is the same entity as Yahweh doesn't make sense because they're definitely portrayed as different entities, with Yahwen even wanting to merge with Lucifer at the end of the run. If there's no other evidences in Mike Carey's run that its referring to the Gnostic Samael instead of the one in jewish folklore or any other version then I dont see why we should automatically assume that its referring to gnostic Samael when Samael is mainly a jewish folklore character

This first part is a straw man, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it is a misunderstanding, since the point does not imply that the name "Samael" is exclusively a Gnostic figure, but, in contrast to your claim regarding Mike Carey's Lucifer based on Jewish writitings, puts forward the evidence of the known aspects of Lucifer as a Gnostic Demiurge figure explicitly mentioned in the Sandman, which Mike Carey's Lucifer run is the continuation, and furthermore strengthned by the introduction of the Gnostic Demiurge figure Yaldabaoth. Supporting more a Gnostic depiction of the figure than based on Jewish writings, which you have provided no evidence in the comics supporting the latter case.

Moreover, you claim that Mike Carey's Lucifer is "heavily, if not mainly, inspired by jewish lore", which may be the case to some extent, in other words, not "heavily", let alone "mainly", as Mike Carey retained the idea used by Neil Gaiman that the depiction of the figures depends on the context of the system, as the evidences show with regard to Lucifer, identified as "Áłtsé hashké" in Navajo belief system, and God/The Presence, identifed as the "Triune Godhead" by Lucifer in Sandman Presents: Lucifer.

• Lucifer identified as "Áłtsé hashké" in Navajo belief system.
[1] [2] [3]

•Lucifer identifying the Presence as the "Triune Godhead".

That being adressed, I give you, once again, the benefit of the doubt that it is a misunderstanding than a strawman, as there is no claim so far in this thread on Lucifer being God, that you are confusing with the term Demiurge which is not to be confused especially in Gnosticism, in which the Demiurge is inferior to God/the Supreme Being. It does not even contradict the depiction of Lucifer as Gnostic Demiurge figure in Mike Carey's Lucifer run by first understanding the meaning of Demiurge, of course, since Lucifer #75 made clear that the Presence is superior to Lucifer, who was involved in the creation of the Universe, as already mentioned.

Therefore, there is more evidence supported by the comics that the depiction of Lucifer in Mike Carey's Lucifer run is a Gnostic Demiurge figure, which is not even the point of disscusion, than based on Jewish writings, which will still support my point. I end with a reminder that claims are not proof.

So what do I think?

There's no solid evidence here to handwave away the inconsistencies between the two books. The inconsistencies between Mike Carey's run and Dan Watters are more than Lucifer being the GBE so I think we should still make a separate key for Lucifer

If its about Sandman - Dan Watters run then I think you can argue that this can fit right in there, just as how all other stories that features an adversary can because the role of the Lucifer has as the darkness .

If this meant to say that Mike Carey and Dan Watters run have no inconsistencies then I disagree with that

The point you are bringing is irrelevant in the context of this dissucsion. A thread on this specific "issue" would be appropriate to discuss it, but I will address it anyway.

The point implies that the stories of figures such as Lucifer must be linear in terms of chrolonogical order, like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. when this is not necessarily the case, because the point that the depiction of figures depend on the context of the belief system does not only imply the way they are perceived, but also how they are intrepreted in each of these belief systems. Hence why they are different incarnations of the same figure, e.g Lucifer. This is the point of the scans taken from Holly Black and Dan Watters Lucifer's run.
• Holly Black's Lucifer.

• Dan Watters Lucifer.

Due to time constraints, I will end by saying that the stories do not necessarily have to be linear in terms of chronological order. Dan Watters stated, from memory, that previous incarnations of Lucifer are canon, but he didn't even need to justify himself considering how DC treat their figures.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Back.

Me wondering why I saw Lucifer Morningstar fighting great darkness.....in Lucifer 2016
Tbh,I don't think dey are the same based on the fact we saw them as different characters who faced each other

You have to take into account that the event you are mentioning happened before Dan Watters unified Lucifer and the Great Darkness.

As for the point about the apparent contradiction on how these two figures are one when they were both involved in the event, both figures, as well as the rest of the figures existing outside the Bleed, are outisde space and time. Implying that they are not at a given location at a particular time. If it was the opposite case, then Lucifer would not be perceived as Áłtsé hashké by Blue Flint Girl's Grandma. Despite the fact that Lucifer was not depicted as this god, Blue Flint Girl's Grandma identifying Lucifer as Áłtsé hashké is enough to understand that she was perceving Lucifer as her Trickster Figure in the context of her belief.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/evidence-for-lucifer-being-the-great-darkness.114603/post-3677492

Another evidence strengthening this point is the following explicit instance from Wonder Woman Rebirth, in which the Figure of Fate (the Three Sisters) appeared as various figures from different context beliefs, in front of Jason.

Finally, without going into all the points, the fact that all these figures exist in their own realms would imply that they are unrelated, that they are confined within the context of their belief system, but this is contrary to what is shown, since this is not how DC treats their figures.

 

[Xearsay]

This notion that Lucifer is the Great Darkness is vague, lacks sufficient in-material evidence, and would completely contradict what was presented in JLD. Which is a storyline that literally builds off Swamp Thing. Plus Lucifer literally distinguished himself from it in the past.

So I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with this.

 

[Deagonx]

This notion that Lucifer is the Great Darkness is vague, lacks sufficient in-material evidence, and would completely contradict what was presented in JLD.

This isn't a substantive response, it's a handwave. Kuuzo put in the work to thoroughly connect the dots. If you're going to object to it, the bare minimum expectation should be that you address the points he's made. Likewise, contradicting the JLD comic isn't a disqualifier, as JLD contradicts Lucifer. However, the Lucifer comic is more recent.

 

[Sandman31]

This first part is a straw man, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it is a misunderstanding, since the point does not imply that the name "Samael" is exclusively a Gnostic figure, but, in contrast to your claim regarding Mike Carey's Lucifer based on Jewish writitings, puts forward the evidence of the known aspects of Lucifer as a Gnostic Demiurge figure explicitly mentioned in the Sandman, which Mike Carey's Lucifer run is the continuation, and furthermore strengthned by the introduction of the Gnostic Demiurge figure Yaldabaoth. Supporting more a Gnostic depiction of the figure than based on Jewish writings, which you have provided no evidence in the comics supporting the latter case.

Moreover, you claim that Mike Carey's Lucifer is "heavily, if not mainly, inspired by jewish lore", which may be the case to some extent, in other words, not "heavily", let alone "mainly", as Mike Carey retained the idea used by Neil Gaiman that the depiction of the figures depends on the context of the system, as the evidences show with regard to Lucifer, identified as "Áłtsé hashké" in Navajo belief system, and God/The Presence, identifed as the "Triune Godhead" by Lucifer in Sandman Presents: Lucifer.

• Lucifer identified as "Áłtsé hashké" in Navajo belief system.
[1] [2] [3]

•Lucifer identifying the Presence as the "Triune Godhead"

Mike Carey's cosmology definitely is inspired by Jewish lore. Especially in regards to the Presence and the other angelic beings. They may sometimes be referred to as this and that but we know that they were the characters in the Old Testament/Abrahamic God first and foremost

The Titan Brothers called the Presence as Yahweh, and referred to him as the God of Covenant.

Why did you think that the Titan Brothers chose the name Elohim when they were trying to replace the Presence? or why they chose the Judaic people when doing their miracles?

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Elohim

"Elohim, singular Eloah, (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament

is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, “the God,” and sometimes with a further identification Elohim ḥayyim, meaning “the living God"

Lucifer claims that they've the power to walk over the limits of time, and as they proved, space as well. With this ability, they determined precisely what the limitations and lengths of Yahweh's creation were, and could feel within that creation the boundaries of the omnipresent God now emptied.
They grasped through the void he left, and found where they were to stand if they were to take up the mantle of Yahweh. They felt for his absence, to fill that space and time with themselves.

Given their apparent mastery over time & space, the virtues of their great power, and their status & boons of being early and archaic figures of religion.... they had a surprisingly easier time than anyone would have expected in stepping into Yahweh's shoes, which are big shoes to fill.
They did this by implicating themselves as among the miracle workers of the early Judaic people. Elohim, as they called themselves, is a real biblical name for god. It's rather clever because it refers to God in the multiple sense, but is also the earliest name for God in Judiac texts.
As they had then earned themselves the right to be called Elohim, they were from that moment on a part of that religion as well. They were in a small sense, a part of God, earning a tax of what worship was bestowed upon him and a sense of that power as well.


That being adressed, I give you, once again, the benefit of the doubt that it is a misunderstanding than a strawman, as there is no claim so far in this thread on Lucifer being God, that you are confusing with the term Demiurge which is not to be confused especially in Gnosticism, in which the Demiurge is inferior to God/the Supreme Being. It does not even contradict the depiction of Lucifer as Gnostic Demiurge figure in Mike Carey's Lucifer run by first understanding the meaning of Demiurge, of course, since Lucifer #75 made clear that the Presence is superior to Lucifer, who was involved in the creation of the Universe, as already mentioned.

I'm not confusing anything though? the Old Testament God in Gnosticism is the Demiurge according to Gnostic beliefs. If youre saying that Lucifer is the Demiurge then are you saying that Lucifer, along with those other names, are just other names for Yahweh. The true god according no Ghosticism isnt Yahweh, Yahweh is only a false god, The Demiurge.

Demiurge - New World Encyclopedia

www.newworldencyclopedia.org

"The Gnostics often identified the Demiurge with the Hebrew God Yahweh.”

Lucifer mentioned the Cainites, so here

The Cainites, or Cainians (Greek: Καϊνοί Kainoi, Καϊανοί Kaianoi),[1] were a Gnostic and Antinomian sect known to venerate Cain as the first victim of the Demiurge, the deity of the Tanakh

The Archangels being involved in the creation of the universe doesn't automatically mean its Gnosticism.

 

[Kuuzo7]

This notion that Lucifer is the Great Darkness is vague, lacks sufficient in-material evidence, and would completely contradict what was presented in JLD. Which is a storyline that literally builds off Swamp Thing. Plus Lucifer literally distinguished himself from it in the past.

1 out of 2 of your points is a recycling that was addressed in the thread linked in my first post. So I won't dwell on it further.

But on the second point, Lucifer as the Great Darkness is a later depiction of the event mentioned. It would be relevant if this unification of both figures was before the event, negating the relationship between Lucifer and the Great Darkness.

Let us add to this that, as said before, the function of the belief allowing the figures to change according to the system of belief overtime negate, in this case, these previous instances of distinction between the two figures.

So I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with this.

Thanks for the bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Sandman31 and also think that it seems safest to separate the Lucifer and GEB profiles into either several pages or several statistics keys due to the considerable inconsistencies between different writers.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Mike Carey's cosmology definitely is inspired by Jewish lore. Especially in regards to the Presence and the other angelic beings. They may sometimes be referred to as this and that but we know that they were the characters in the Old Testament/Abrahamic God first and foremost

The Titan Brothers called the Presence as Yahweh, and referred to him as the God of Covenant.

Why did you think that the Titan Brothers chose the name Elohim when they were trying to replace the Presence? or why they chose the Judaic people when doing their miracles?

That's just more fuel to the fire.

It is not necessary to repeat the point of the disscusion, but if it is an reply to "which may be the case to some extent", then you have once again misunderstood since, as it was written afterwards, what is being questioned is your assertion that it is "heavnly", going to claim even "mainly", when there is evidence pointing to rather a recognition of different belief system regarding the figures in Mike Carey Lucifer run, i.e "Áłtsé hashké", the "Triune Godhead" and "the Word", not that there is no evidence of Jewish writings.

"Elohim, singular Eloah, (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament"

Lucifer claims that they've the power to walk over the limits of time, and as they proved, space as well. With this ability, they determined precisely what the limitations and lengths of Yahweh's creation were, and could feel within that creation the boundaries of the omnipresent God now emptied.
They grasped through the void he left, and found where they were to stand if they were to take up the mantle of Yahweh. They felt for his absence, to fill that space and time with themselves.

Given their apparent mastery over time & space, the virtues of their great power, and their status & boons of being early and archaic figures of religion... (what a mouth full all of this is)... they had a surprisingly easier time than anyone would have expected in stepping into Yahweh's shoes, which are big shoes to fill.
They did this by implicating themselves as among the miracle workers of the early Judaic people. Elohim, as they called themselves, is a real biblical name for god. It's rather clever because it refers to God in the multiple sense, but is also the earliest name for God in Judiac texts.
As they had then earned themselves the right to be called Elohim, they were from that moment on a part of that religion as well. They were in a small sense, a part of God, earning a tax of what worship was bestowed upon him and a sense of that power as well.

I see you refer to the Old Testament, but you realize that God did not need intermediaries for the creation of the Universe.

And, once again, that's just more fuel to the fire, since your point, using the example of Titan Brothers trying to usurp God/The Presence, supports the function of belief in DC that has already been mentioned in previous posts.

I'm not confusing anything though? the Old Testament God in Gnosticism is the Demiurge according to Gnostic beliefs. If youre saying that Lucifer is the Demiurge then are you saying that Lucifer, along with those other names, are just other names for Yahweh. The true god according no Ghosticism isnt Yahweh, Yahwen is only a false god, The Demiurge.

From your own source:

Like Plato, Gnosticism presents a distinction between the highest, unknowable God and the demiurgic “creator” of the material world. However, in contrast to Plato, several systems of Gnostic thought present the Demiurge as antagonistic to the will of the Supreme Being. His act of creation either occurs in unconscious imitation of the divine model, and thus is fundamentally flawed, or else is formed with the malevolent intention of entrapping aspects of the divine in materiality. In such systems, the Demiurge acts as a solution to the problem of evil.

Demiurge - New World Encyclopedia

www.newworldencyclopedia.org

I don't need to elaborate on the fact that you are making a confusion, in addition to not making the effort to rectify it when you could read your own source.

 

[Xearsay]

1 out of 2 of your points is a recycling that was addressed in the thread linked in my first post. So I won't dwell on it further.

Actually this is one of the few points that wasn’t addressed at all.

But on the second point, Lucifer as the Great Darkness is a later depiction of the event mentioned. It would be relevant if this unification of both figures was before the event, negating the relationship between Lucifer and the Great Darkness.

I don’t get your point here. Can you expand a bit?

Let us add to this that, as said before, the function of the belief allowing the figures to change according to the system of belief overtime negate, in this case, these previous instances of distinction between the two figures.

This all makes sense. However where is the evidence for the Great Darkness being attached to this system of belief you’re referring to? And I’m asking because the description that he’s “more than satan” doesn’t prove he’s attached to a belief system.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Actually this is one of the few points that wasn’t addressed at all.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/upside-down-man-great-evil-beast-revisions.112716/

I don’t get your point here. Can you expand a bit?

Where is the evidence for the Great Darkness
being attached to this system of belief you’re referring to?

The fact is, you will continue to deny, is that these past examples on the distinction between these two figures is no longer relevant since their unification by Dan Watters, supported by the lore.

I don't understand what you mean by " being attached to this system of belief you’re referring to", however, the Great Darkness was introduced in a Judeo-Christian context, in which he sought refuge in Shadowlands after God prounced the following words: Let there be Light.
[1] [2] [3]

So, if your question is about "the Great Darkness being part of the figures that fall into the category of evolving according to the belief over time", it is part based on the context in which it was introduced, whether you like it or not the answer, but I expect the latter case.

 

[Kuuzo7]

I trust Sandman31 and also think that it seems safest to separate the Lucifer and GEB profiles into either several pages or several statistics keys due to the considerable inconsistencies between different writers.

I don't know what the purpose was of the disscusion on Lucifer and the Great Darkness in the linked thread.

I have no problem with their profiles being separate, but I was thinking of a note or whatever to inform that they are related.

 

[Amakasu]

I actually don't see much inconsistency, actually, lucifer's story is very consistent with how belief systems work which essentially makes very lucifer comic canon. I'm not opposed to the idea of different profiles but why not actually look for how they fit in and make inverse explanations rather than just saying, "oh the comic has some inconsistency, so let's make a difference profile".

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know what the purpose was of the disscusion on Lucifer and the Great Darkness in the linked thread.

I have no problem with their profiles being separate, but I was thinking of a note or whatever to inform that they are related.

That should likely not be a problem. They clearly are in the most recent version of DC continuity, but as far as I have understood, they were originally intended to be different characters.

 

[Antvasima]

I actually don't see much inconsistency, actually, lucifer's story is very consistent with how belief systems work which essentially makes very lucifer comic canon. I'm not opposed to the idea of different profiles but why not actually look for how they fit in and make inverse explanations rather than just saying, "oh the comic has some inconsistency, so let's make a difference profile".

It is not our job to come up with fanon explanations for blatant contradictions rather that realise that the writers and editors have nearly completely dropped all pretenses of caring about coherent continuity since the post-Joe Quesada/Sana Amanat and post-Dan Didio/Jim Lee eras began.

 

[Amakasu]

It is not our job to come up with fanon explanations for blatant inconsistencies rather that realise that the writers and editors have completely dropped all pretenses of caring about coherent continuity since the post-Joe Quesada/Sana Amanat and post-Dan Didio/Jim Lee eras began.

I actually never said anything about fanon explantions, I just said we should look for inverse explanations, with belief system acting as a backbone to it.

 

[Sandman31]

And, once again, that's just more fuel to the fire, since your point, using the example of Titans trying to usurp God/The Presence, supports the function of belief in DC that has already been mentioned in previous posts.

The brothers usurping the Presence proves that the Presence is "mainly" the biblical/abrahamic God. There's a reason why the brothers attached themselves to Judaism and not other religion. There's an order made by the gods, and in that order Yahweh specifically, and not some unknown and unamed supreme being occupies the role as the God of Creation. They're not just derivatives of each other

I don't need to elaborate on the fact that you are making a confusion, in addition to not making the effort to rectify it by reading your own source.

"Like Plato, Gnosticism presents a distinction between the highest, unknowable God and the demiurgic “creator” of the material world"

I don't know what this proves? the highest God in Gnosticism isn't Yahweh, Yahweh is the demiurgic creator according to Gnosticism. Did I say that there's no distinction between the true God and the Demiurge? No, I said that according to most Gnostic beliefs and most importantly the Cainites, Yahweh is the Demiurge. The Presence is not an unknowable God, he is Yahweh as shown above, Yahweh specifically occupies the role as God of Creation which was why the titans needs to implicate themselves in the Judeo-Christian mythos in order to usurp the Presence's place

 

[Sandman31]

I actually don't see much inconsistency, actually, lucifer's story is very consistent with how belief systems work which essentially makes very lucifer comic canon. I'm not opposed to the idea of different profiles but why not actually look for how they fit in and make inverse explanations rather than just saying, "oh the comic has some inconsistency, so let's make a difference profile".

It may be possible to explain Lucifer but it doesn't explain why the Michael in the 2018 and the 2000 run are clearly two different characters with different histories. Using beliefs to explain it also doesn't work because it was explicitly stated that Michael and the other angels are different from Lucifer who is portrayed in the story as something similar to an Endless that represents darkness

Just clearing up that I don't necessarily disagree with this if we separate it in another key. I think Lucifer being the GBE is very much possible based on his portrayal from the 2018 run by Dan Watters

 

[Amakasu]

I think yaweh is more like a name rather than an entity. The presence was fine after basically getting his named usurped. And if I remember zaruiel comments on how the bible dosent depict the actual presence

 

[Sandman31]

I think yaweh is more like a name rather than an entity. The presence was fine after basically getting his named usurped. And if I remember zaruiel comments on how the bible dosent depict the actual presence

We don't know if The Presence was fine because we don't have any idea what happened to him during the time the titans were trying to usurp his place. What's clear here is that the judeo-Christian God specifically is the God of Creation.

Also, the Presence was already in the Void during that time. Every characters who have reached the Void were shown to be "fine" even though they were already "killed" as there's no causality in the Void

 

[Amakasu]

We don't know if The Presence was fine because we don't have any idea what happened to him during the time the titans were trying to usurp his place.

We see him perfectly afterwards, nothing to assume that he is for some reason dead. And the Presence dosen't even mention that he is dead or anything, if he was dead for a certain amount of time then he would had mentioned it.

What's clear here is that the judeo-Christian God specifically is the God of Creation.

And? Yaweh in the bible created the world, that's an identity, likewise Michael and lucifer has been called different beings who themselves have different origins.

Also, the Presence was already in the Void during that time. Every characters who have reached the Void were shown to be "fine" even though they were already "killed" as there's no causality in the Void

How does that say anything? Just because change dosent exist in the void the Presence can't die?

 

[Sandman31]

We see him perfectly afterwards, nothing to assume that he is for some reason dead. And the Presence dosen't even mention that he is dead or anything, if he was dead for a certain amount of time then he would had mentioned it.

When did I say that he's dead? Nowhere, don't put words in my mouth

I said we have no idea what happened to the Presence during that time. He could have been weakened during that time or whatever. We don't know because nothing was shown

The brothers wasn't able to successfully replace him so it could be the reason why he appeared fine at the end AFTER the titans tried to usurp him

Yaweh also did not mention that he was almost usurped so I guess that also didn't happen then?

Also, you're treating as if the Yahweh name is nothing special when it's literally the foundation the world is built on. Its not just some other name. When Yahweh left, Creation began to rot because it is that name that was written in everything in existence

Everything in Creation is engraved with Yahwehs name, not Triune Godhead or anything like that.

Even Lucifer calls the current Creation as Yahweh's Creation.

This was already explored in the Yahweh Dance. Elaine also assumed the Identity of Aroone the Wolf God. They're the same being but we know that Elaine is her real name because that's what she used to make a gate out of her universe

 

[Xearsay]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/upside-down-man-great-evil-beast-revisions.112716/

I read the thread. You can think it was addressed all you want but it wasn't.

The fact is, you will continue to deny, is that these past examples on the distinction between these two figures is no longer relevant since their unification by Dan Watters, supported by the lore.

Just because their past examples doesn't mean they aren't relevant when discussing contradictions. Also JLD which connects the Great Darkness to the Otherkind isn't a past example.

I don't understand what you mean by " being attached to this system of belief you’re referring to", however, the Great Darkness was introduced in a Judeo-Christian context, in which he sought refuge in Shadowlands after God prounced the following words: Let there be Light.
[1] [2] [3]

So, if your question is about "the Great Darkness being part of the figures that fall into the category of evolving according to the belief over time", it is part based on the context in which it was introduced, whether you like it or not the answer, but I expect the latter case.

What I meant was exactly what you just said in your last sentence about falling into the category of evolving according to belief. Being introduced in a comic that involves religion doesn't actually support this.

 

[Kuuzo7]

The brothers usurping the Presence proves that the Presence is "mainly" the biblical/abrahamic God.

The reasoning is wrong in the sense that, in Lucifer #73, Mike Carey made clear that the Presence is the figure of God, who is depicted differently depending on the context of the belief system.

Therefore, God/the Presence is not part of a particular belief, even though I can understand why you use "mainly" for the depiction of the Presence as "the biblical/abrahamic God", since it is mainly in that setting in which God/The Presence is very invovled in his appearances, but it is not an evidence.

There's a reason why the brothers attached themselves to Judaism and not other religion. There's an order made by the gods of different from different beliefs, and in that order Yahweh specifically, and not some unknown and unamed supreme being occupies the role as the God of Creation

As adressed above, God/the Presence is not part of a particular belief, so the point that the Titan brothers tried to usurp particulary Yahweh means just, by taking into account that that God/the Presence is indentified in the context of different belief systems , that it was more advantageous, for them, to usurp Yahweh than another one on the hierarchical level.

This does not contradict that God/the Presence can't be God in another context of belief system. God/the Presence as Yahweh is one his aspects in the context of this belief system.
is not an evidence.

I don't know what this proves? the highest God in Gnosticism isn't Yahweh, Yahweh is the demiurgic creator according to Gnosticism. Did I say that there's no distinction between the true God and the Demiurge? No, I said that according to most Gnostic beliefs and most importantly the Cainites, Yahweh is the Demiurge. The Presence is not an unknowable God, he is Yahweh as shown above, as shown above Yahweh specifically occupies the role as God of Creation which was why the titans needs to implicate themselves in the Judeo-Christian mythos

I see finally reasoning in the point, but is it still that this does not contradict that Lucifer is a Gnostic figure since you assume that all the run of Lucifer should consequently be Gnostic, including the Presence for his identification with Yahwhe, but it is a conclusion omitting the recognition of the different systems in relation to figures, as it has been shown before on the other identification of the Presence to the "Triune Godhead" and not belonging to a specific belief system.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sandman31

What do you think that we should do here? It does not seem like Kuuzo7 is opposed to an extra statistics key or page.

 

[Kuuzo7]

I read the thread. You can think it was addressed all you want but it wasn't.

You can continue to try to pretend that this is not the case, there is no problem.

Just because their past examples doesn't mean they aren't relevant when discussing contradictions.

This is a straw man, as the point is not that recent evidence is qualitatively more relevant than that of the past, but that the function of belief negates the point that Dan Watters could not have unified Lucifer and the Great Darkness on past distinction on both figures.

Being introduced in a comic that involves religion doesn't actually support this.

Just because you say it doesn't make it so, but perhaps I haven't articulated the point enough, which is not that the Great Darkness has been introduced in a belief system context to be related to it, but that the Great Darkness has been introduced as a figure to fit in the story of this belief system, in particular Genesis, by being the darkness opposing God's light in the Beginning.

 

[Kuuzo7]

@Sandman31

What do you think that we should do here? It does not seem like Kuuzo7 is opposed to an extra statistics key or page.

Not at all opposed.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, then there does not seem to be a good reason for the constant arguing back and forth.

We should just work out the statistics scaling instead.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw: Deagonx seems to know you from previously, and you seem considerably more knowledgeable than most new members. Can you tell us a little about the circumstances?

 

[Amakasu]

Btw: Deagonx seems to know you from previously, and you seem considerably more knowledgeable than most new members. Can you tell us a little about the circumstances?

Kuzzo used to debate some Cosmic armour Superman wankers.