Evidence for Lucifer being the Great Darkness

[Amakasu]

I'm not interested in lucifer 2000 anymore, so I think 2018 should have his own "more powerful" tier, lmao.

 

[Unwanted]

>I'm saying that the supreme being, the one that the Presence is an aspect of, is originally neutral like the void, beyond definitions, and without personality. Dreams, Lucifer, creation and all that are what gave him definition, made him God, the Presence, Yahweh, Allah and all these aspects which he used to interact with them. That's also proven by the last chapter of Lucifer 2018, where the Presence loses his form and becomes neutral after Lucifer was erased. Because Lucifer is one of the things that defines that supreme being.

We're going to have a different key for 2018 Lucifer/Presence because of how contradictory it was to the original run plus the author saying that they only used Sandman as their primary material


>Either way Lucifer was created in a place that is outside of creation and beyond time, so the Jin En Mok can't be older than him. The status of the Jin En Mok and their power is irrelevant. The point standstill, they can’t predate Lucifer who is a creation of the Presence, let alone the Presence himself.

You offered no proof, nothing. The Jin En Moks were specifically stated to be older than the Presence and has existed since the first cosmos. Theres nothing that contradicst this and is well supported in the series


There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .

"Before there were demons, or a hell to put them in, or a God to curse them--there was Cestis--of the dancing flesh"

There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God

"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"

The Endless likely exists in all these versions of Creation, or at least a version of them, Death was the only Endless was stated to last longer that the present version of Creation

"And even our existence is brief and bounded, none of us will last longer than this version of Creation"

"Except our sister"

[http:// http://2.bp.blogspot.com/h2q1WIXtMP...at6JSwDdYx0KyBXRi7F1usbtKP3OvNyhzDB3I8x=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/h2q1WIXtMP...at6JSwDdYx0KyBXRi7F1usbtKP3OvNyhzDB3I8x=s1600]

"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"

Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers.

[http:// http://2.bp.blogspot.com/pkMfTZT0sh...41g_2blLXdp8xer3CHvTRlEISJf3G7KuJbrWtDq=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/pkMfTZT0sh...41g_2blLXdp8xer3CHvTRlEISJf3G7KuJbrWtDq=s1600]

"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"

In the Void, you see this Creation as seperate, but these Creations are all the same but different version of Creation but since time doesnt have meaning in the Void they appear to exists silmultaneously

You can see this when Lucifer flew into the Void

"There is nothing, there is, has been, will be nothing. All the same, always. But this-this is a possibility, Burgeoning now where nothing was. And being something in the midst of nothing, it becomes the center of focus

So theres previous version of Creation and the current one isnt even the first, even the Presence/Yahweh is is not the first Creator. There were other Creators and theres going to be other Creators aside from the Presence.



If you're only argument is that "No, they cant be older he was born beyond outside of space and time" then forgive if I'm not really convinced. If Lucifer was born in the Void outside of Creation then why would he need the letter of the Presence to go there? He cant even go to the Void by himself, he needed the Letter of Passage by Presence to go to the Void.

The Jin En Moks were beings from the first version of the Cosmos. Theyre older than the Presence, they're older than Creation, they even know of other Makers and Creations aside from the Presence.

>When Lucifer wrote the Presence's name on his door, he said he only needs one of his names. We can't come to a conclusion that this is the only name that would do the job, but only one of them.


And that doesnt contradict what I said. I said that The Presence is Yahweh/the God of Covenant. Lucifer saying Yahweh has many names doesnt contradict that. The biblical/abrahamic God has many names that are derivatives of each other

The abrahamic God actually has over 100 names.

https://urbanareas.net/info/100-biblical-names-god/

The Titans almost became God of Creation because they took one of Yahweh's name, and because of that they sort of become of part of Yahweh himself and they received the power that Yahweh would have gotten because now that Yahweh's gone this power no goes to them as they already earned the right to be called Elohim because of the miracles they performed to the people that will worship Yahweh

The belief systems are disconnected to the worshippers, but to the Presence, Michael, Lucifer, and the Endless they're connected. They're all these beings.
So, no. I think the titans could have chosen any other belief system and it would have worked.

You could believe all you want but that means nothing without evidence, its pretty clear that they need to choose judaism/abrahamic fate if they want to become God of Creation because there is an order made by the Gods.

Also, are you forgetting the fact that the titans themselves are part of a belief system? if they can choose any belief system then why not just choose their own and establish themselves as God of Creation?

Because it wont work. The God of Coventant, Yahweh, is the God of Creation. They can choose to hijack other religions but they wont become God of Creation because in the order of the gods, Yahweh is the God of Creation

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/QjAcihu6HN3czRZ7TRrLalsDJgUEfIiNKZTRnVK6X2Q7QdafIhJbc6oL4OYNoKnAmAb72TDqseEr=s1600

"Yahweh?, which one is he?"

"The God of the Covenant. The God of Creation"

Also, from the scan you yourself was referring to.

"He is Lucifer. The Lightbringer. His oldest name given by God"

What belief system does Lucifer came from? Who is the God in that belief system? Yahweh or the God of Covenant

Also, the titan brothers did consider usurping other gods/belief systems but they didn't because they want to imprint themselves into older orders

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/QjAcihu6H...VK6X2Q7QdafIhJbc6oL4OYNoKnAmAb72TDqseEr=s1600

"And without the the orders established by the gods, our own position becomes difficult"

"It becomes untenable. But there are older orders. Let us graft ourselves into them"

They tried to impersonate the Endless by calling themselves "Deceit and Duplicity" but they werent successful and thats when they thought of usurping Yahweh.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Jvm0Si4X8...2k7zK1Qrg5wNZBMysxXNgdLRnMZEg1Wq9DljHzm=s1600

"I have a mind to try something a little more ambitious. If the absence of Yahweh is the root of our problem --- then why not become him?"

So no, the titans couldnt have chosen any belief. They thought of doing so but they decided to imprint themselves on older orders (The Endless) and when that didn't work thats when they thought of replacing Yahweh.

Order of the gods < The Endless < Yahweh (the oldest order)

Reread chapter 75 of Lucifer. The Presence tells Lucifer the story of Buddha and the monkey king, to imply that the void is nowhere near beyond his power. So, he is not powerless in the void. The Presence is omniscient and omnipresent. He simply disabled these abilities for this creation to experience randomness.


I dont know how you read that and came to the conclusion that the Presence's power, like his power over Creation, extends out to the Void when just like the page before, the Presence said that the Void is outside the Plan

We're going to have a different key for 2018 Lucifer/Presence because of how contradictory it was to the original run plus the author saying that they only used Sandman as their primary material

Ok then. Let's ignore the 2018 run. You still have the problem of Dream being a younger brother of Destiny, and Destiny exists only as a side effect of the Presence, so, Dream can't have given the Presence power, it's the other way around. So, I still stand by my point of view, dreams only gave the supreme being an aspect, it can't influence him any further.

You offered no proof, nothing. The Jin En Moks were specifically stated to be older than the Presence and has existed since the first cosmos. Theres nothing that contradicst this and is well supported in the series


There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .

What proof do you want? Lucifer was born outside of time. He helped msking creation. The Jin En Mok can't be older than him. I don't need any further proof. And that statement probably just meant creation and it's order, we've seen many statements like this in DC and they all come down to nothing. This is DC's style of making hype to their villians.
And the Presence created other creations before this one by the way.

There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God

The Silkman was trying to escape Death of the Endless, again a younger sister of Destiny who exists as a side effect of the Presence.


Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers.

Well, Lucifer and Elaine have creations, and there are also the super celestials and who knows what else. None of these are considered Yahweh's creations, yet none of these would have existed if it wasn't for Yahweh's power. The other creations are probably the same.

And why does Lucifer need a letter of passage you say? I guess for the same reason why he is only able to revive the souls he killed and not others, and why he have no power in the windowless rooms when he can make entire creations and create gods with a gesture. Probably just limitations the Presence have made to his power. Well, either that, or because he just can't manipulate nothingness. Either way it's not a proof he wasn't born there.

Everything you said regarding the titans can be at best considered a theory. There's no proof Judaism was the only belief system thst would've worked, when the Presence is many more deities than just Yahweh, and is involved with many more belief systems than just Judaism.
They most likely just went the most popular one.
And the titans are fom the Greek mythology. The main god in the Greek mythology is Zeus, and DC's Zeus is not an aspect of the Presence. The titans are probably stronger than Zeus without any amps.

I dont know how you read that and came to the conclusion that the Presence's power, like his power over Creation, extends out to the Void when just like the page before, the Presence said that the Void is outside the Plan

The Presence made it clear the void is nowhere near his limits. He meant Destiny when he was talking about the plan, and Destiny is bounded by creation, the Presence himself is not.

 

[Sandman31]

What proof do you want? Lucifer was born outside of time. He helped msking creation. The Jin En Mok can't be older than him. I don't need any further proof. And that statement probably just meant creation and it's order, we've seen many statements like this in DC and they all come down to nothing. This is DC's style of making hype to their villians.
And the Presence created other creations before this one by the way.

How about proof that he actually was born in the Void? He helped making Creation by making stars, hence his lightbringer title. Or do stars now exists beyond Creation? He even said when he was making his universe that he never made a universe before.

Of course you need proof, I offered tons of evidences and if you're only answer to that is 'trust me bro, I'm right" then I unfortunately wont trust you. If you cant back your arguments with scans then I'm going to assume that all of it is just theories

Its your evidence that it comes down to nothing, its a straightforward statement why should we assume that it means nothing when it obviously means something? its not even saying that the Jin En Moks are going to eat the Presence for breakfast, merely stating a fact about their age. How about this? prove that it means nothing, with scans, if you cant then its not nothing

You dont need to change the meaning, its clear to everyone except for you apparently. There's versions of Creation, made by other Makers

Also, here.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9lVqC1k5l...yHmabX4dzewiguga1o0YIs2rCOc6spBMUMb2Sy3=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Px-qa-you...WMlR3AAZYHsNhlr9F_ffun6F4-Cwf6vPxqEQQeP=s1600

When Lucifer was in the Void, he saw Creation being born and observe its entire 20 billion year history. And you know whats the first part of that history? The archangels making the contents of the universe. If Lucifer was born beyond of time/space/creation as you said then why is their birth part of Creations twenty billion year history?

Because they're born in Creation, maybe its the empty Creation but they were still born there nonetheless

And why does Lucifer need a letter of passage you say? I guess for the same reason why he is only able to revive the souls he killed and not others, and why he have no power in the windowless rooms when he can make entire creations and create gods with a gesture. Probably just limitations the Presence have made to his power.

Doesnt change the point I was trying to make. He was only able to go to the Void outside of Creation after the Presence gave him the Letter of Passage

The Silkman was trying to escape Death of the Endless, again a younger sister of Destiny who exists as a side effect of the Presence.

I think you missed the part where it was said that the Endless dies, including Destiny, but Death will outlived this version of Creation.

Everything you said regarding the titans can be at best considered a theory. There's no proof Judaism was the only belief system thst would've worked, when the Presence is many more deities than just Yahweh, and is involved with many more belief systems than just Judaism.

No theory there, its been stated that it is the oldest order. They thought of implicating themselves on other mythologies but decided to just place themselves in the oldest order in Creation which is, as shown, the judeo christian/abrahamic mythology.

The Presence made it clear the void is nowhere near his limits. He meant Destiny when he was talking about the plan, and Destiny is bounded by creation, the Presence himself is not.

Of course the Presence is not bound by Creation, where the hell did I say that? That doesnt mean he's also the God of the Void.

And the titans are fom the Greek mythology. The main god in the Greek mythology is Zeus, and DC's Zeus is not an aspect of the Presence. The titans are probably stronger than Zeus without any amps.

Where did i say that they're not from Greek Mythology? and why should that matter? after all, according to you "So, no. I think the titans could have chosen any other belief system and it would have worked"

 

[Sandman31]

Sandman makes sense to me as usual. Feel free to update the relevant pages according to what we agreed earlier.

Ok, I'm still gathering feats and checking what still qualifies to be in the 2018 profile

 

[Unwanted]

How about proof that he actually was born in the Void? He helped making Creation by making stars, hence his lightbringer title. Or do stars now exists beyond Creation? He even said when he was making his universe that he never made a universe before.

Here.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpm3Bv06BPIiURzj_anXedmybbgb9R8ztJJw&usqp=CAU
The Presence was giving them instructions. Michael was yet to release the power which was to become creation. They were born outside of creation. Also, they were his first big ideas, stated by Death.

Your words are nothing

That hurt.

Doesnt change the point I was trying to make. He was only able to go to the Void outside of Creation after the Presence gave him the Letter of Passage

Doesn't change the fact, Lucifer was born in the void.

I think you missed the part where it was said that the Endless dies, including Destiny, but Death will outlived this version of Creation.

Which one of them will live longer is irrelevant. Destiny is still the oldest of them, and he exists only because of the Presence.

No theory there, its been stated that it is the oldest order. They thought of implicating themselves on other mythologies but decided to just place themselves in the oldest order in Creation which is, as shown, the judeo christian/abrahamic mythology.

Sorry, but you need a direct statement to prove this. I don't have a problem admitting I was wrong but when there's actually a direct evidence, not a theory.
Edit: a direct statement to prove that only the Abrahamic belief would work

Of course the Presence is not bound by Creation, where the hell did I say that? That doesnt mean he's also the God of the Void.

No, the Presence makes it clear in the last chapter that neither creation nor the void make any difference to his power. He's all powerful in both.

Just read the story of the Monkey King and Buddha in the last chapter of Lucifer and bear in mind the Monkey is Lucifer, while Buddha is the Presence and you'll see what I'm saying.


About the greek mythology I meant any belief system that involves the Presence, the Greek belief is dead anyway.

 

[Amakasu]

Lucifer is far stronger than the hunter gods and hunter gods scale above the Lord's of order. Hope that helps

 

[Antvasima]

Ok, I'm still gathering feats and checking what still qualifies to be in the 2018 profile

Thank you. You can tell me via PM when you need some pages unlocked, and which ones.

 

[Unwanted]

I thought of something that I don't know if it will help in anything but I would like to address it:
Lucifer have multiple different origins that don't mix in Dan Watters run itself. And based on what the narrative says all these origins are true.

Also based on Dan Watters statement all Lucifer's appearences are canon.

Apparently, there are different incarnations of Lucifer with different stories, that are all in the end true to Lucifer, that includes his appearences in other runs and even the TV series.

That was probably Dan Watters way of solving inconsistencies and so that he could freely make his own story.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sandman31

I would greatly appreciate your help with finishing this revision. We are waiting for you.

If that is not possible, would you be willing to help him edit @Firestorm808 ?

 

[Sandman31]

Also based on Dan Watters statement all Lucifer's appearences are canon.

Apparently, there are different incarnations of Lucifer with different stories, that are all in the end true to Lucifer, that includes his appearences in other runs and even the TV series.

The other stories are canon, no ones contesting that. Dan Watters statement only implies that he didn't mess or retconned the other stories, he just made his own story which exists alongside these other stories. Are all of them canon? Yes, but that doesnt necessarily mean that they're canon to each other

Also, I'm aware of Lucifer's "avatar" though those avatars only appeared because he's in the realm of the hindu gods.

 

[Sandman31]

• Lucifer's "Avatars"

The place where Lucifer's avatars manifested is in Patala, which was described to be a place where things are much more fluid than anywhere else in Creation. One thing to remember is that this can only happen in this place, it doesn't mean that there are multiple Lucifers out there roaming, the multiple Lucifer is something that only happened because of the nature of Patala in which makes everyone in it capable of summoning multiple versions of themselves, their "versions" in the past and also alternate versions of themselves.

"Can you not feel your own avatars at your shoulders? All those Lucifer's you have been and could be?

"There is a possible world, you know, where this is not the case. Where you are perfect---angelic and untainted. It is within you. Before he entered the pit, all the avatars of your father stood before you. Do you think you do not have the same? The things you have been and could be stands at your shoulders. You need only look over them"

So there are two types of "avatars" when you enter Patala, one is what you have been, which is yourself but in the past and the other is alternate reality versions of you.

Patala is very much like the Void from the 2000 run, its a place which doesn't really have causality and is the intersection of past, present, and possible futures.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the analysis. That seems to make sense to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Sandman31:

Are you ready to revise the relevant pages soon?

 

[Robo432343]

i think what unwanted means is that cestis predating the presence was just an avatar of the presence. the true form of the presence existed before everyone

 

[Antvasima]

Sandman31:

Are you ready to revise the relevant pages soon?

@Sandman31