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Kuuzo has participated in these kinds of discussions on both Comicvine and Spacebattles, he's very thorough and poised with his arguments and sourcing.
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Evidence for Lucifer being the Great Darkness
- Thread starter Kuuzo7
- Start date
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Okay. That is good. Since PrinceOfTheMorning and ClassicNESfan left, Sandman31 was our only remaining true expert regarding these verses for a while (I remember a lot, but am not good at arguing about it), so new help from you, LuciferDC099, and possibly Kuuzo7 now, is always appreciated. We need people who are knowledgeable without trying to greatly exaggerate the statistics, and strive for accuracy instead.
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lol whatever.
So you're saying due to the function of belief, even if Lucifer distinguished himself from it in the past, it doesn't matter? Well I'm not even going to continue this part of our discussion because you haven't proven the Great Darkness to be a figure of belief in the first place.
This is comics. Not the bible. Just because there's a few inspirations doesn't mean we start drawing characteristics that aren't presented in the material. And that's not even getting into how this contradicts JLD's presentation of the Great Darkness which is one of it's last appearance's and actual mentions in comics.
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It is rather me who should laugh at your replies.
At this point, read comics, as if the criterion that figures could not be related each other based on distinctions such as their stories, then then there would not be evidence of figures metioned previouls as identified with others from different context of belief systems, but, too bad for you, there is a lot of evidence showing otherwise. Supporting that this criterion is irrelevant with regard to the function of the belief.
You want explicit evidence that "the Great Darkness to be a figure of belief in the first place"? Dan Watters answered you positively.
Are you using words pointlessly?
Especially since I hope this does not imply what I think, considering the fact DC Comics published a comics based on the Bible.
THE BIBLE | DC
For the first time ever, DC reprints the 1975 comics adaptation of the Bible, featuring the earliest chapters of the book of Genesis, including the stories of The Garden of Eden, the Flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah! Don't miss this once in a lifetime...
Quote one of my posts in which my point is that the Great Evil Beast is based on inspirations? Or rather that it is a figure introduced part of a belief system, which has been reiterated on different occasions, as already provided.
Keep distorting my words to continue discussion.
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Whatever helps you stroke your ego.
This is irrelevant. Whether there’s evidence of belief systems or not doesn’t address my point about the seeming contradiction where Lucifer distinguishes himself from the Great Darkness.
I wanted in material evidence. Something you don’t have.
What the hell does DC publishing a 1975 comics adaption of the Bible’s have to do with what we’re talking about?Are you using words pointlessly?
Especially since I hope this does not imply what I think, considering the fact DC Comics published a comics based on the Bible.
THE BIBLE | DC
For the first time ever, DC reprints the 1975 comics adaptation of the Bible, featuring the earliest chapters of the book of Genesis, including the stories of The Garden of Eden, the Flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah! Don't miss this once in a lifetime...www.dccomics.com
Quote one of my posts in which my point is that the Great Evil Beast is based on inspirations? Or rather that it is a figure introduced part of a belief system, which has been reiterated on different occasions, as already provided.
Keep distorting my words to continue discussion
“Just because you say it doesn't make it so, but perhaps I haven't articulated the point enough, which is not that the Great Darkness has been introduced in a belief system context to be related to it, but that the Great Darkness has been introduced as a figure to fit in the story of this belief system, in particular Genesis, by being the darkness opposing God's light in the Beginning.”
I’m not distorting anything. You tried to bring up parallels between Genesis and Swamp Thing issues 49-50. Implying that there are inspirations from Genesis incorporated into the issues of Swamp Thing. Also you literally just tried to argue that the Great Darkness was introduced as a figure within a belief system. Implying that it’s attached to a certain belief system.
You realizing posting this adds nothing to the discussion right? That’s a 6 page thread. You’re better off quoting what comments you think addressed what points instead of just posting a giant a thread.
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As adressed above, God/the Presence is not part of a particular belief, so the point that the Titan brothers tried to usurp particulary Yahweh means just, by taking into account that that God/the Presence is indentified in the context of different belief systems , that it was more advantageous, for them, to usurp Yahweh than another one on the hierarchical level.
This does not contradict that God/the Presence can't be God in another context of belief system. God/the Presence as Yahweh is one his aspects in the context of this belief system is not an evidence.
No, there's no proof that they can become God by replacing other gods from other beliefs because, I repeat this this again, there is an order created by the Gods and in that order Yahweh, the God of the Testament, is the God of Creation. There's nothing indicating that they could have chosen Zeus or some other God to usurp to become the God of Creation because the title of God of Creation is something that is exclusive to the God of the Testament. If its something that not just Yahweh can have then why do they need to name themselves Elohim? Why not just go back in time and be their own God? That's because that empty role is for Yahweh/God of the Testament. That's why they need to precisely measure the space Yahweh's absence left, because it is something exclusive to Yahweh.
"Because Yahweh will renounce his throne, and leave his Creation to disintegrate behind him"
Also, the fact that The Jin En Moks and Silk Man, beings older than even the Presence/Yahweh (The Silk Man wasnt shaped by God's hand and came from a different version of Creation) himself calls him Yahweh is another indication that Yahweh is his "real" and oldest name.
Did I say that the Presence can't be a god in another belief system? Nope, just that Yahweh or the other names of the Abrahamic God is not just an aspect of The Presence but is its actual name oldest names where its power is derived from. The Hebrew God is where the power of the Presence's lie. Names are power. This has been shown multiple times like how everything in Creation is branded in Yahweh's name because it is the Divine Name.
This was shown in The Yahweh Dance when Elaine was training to be the God of her universe.
Aside from being worshipped as Elaine, she was also known and appeared as the Wolf God Aroone.
But despite that, we know that Elaine's "true" and oldest name is Elaine Belloc. She may be known as Aroone in another religion but the power doesn't come from Aroone, the power comes from Elaine because thats her real name beyond all those other names. It's the "Divine Name" in Elaines Creation.
That's the same as The Presence, the Presence might have other names but his name in the Judea-Christian mythologies are his oldest "true names"
Its the divine name that is engraved in everything in Creation which is what solidifies Yahweh as the God of Creation
The divine name (Read as Yahweh in Hebrew) written on Perdissa
This does not contradict that God/the Presence can't be God in another context of belief system. God/the Presence as Yahweh is one his aspects in the context of this belief system is not an evidence.
No, there's no proof that they can become God by replacing other gods from other beliefs because, I repeat this this again, there is an order created by the Gods and in that order Yahweh, the God of the Testament, is the God of Creation. There's nothing indicating that they could have chosen Zeus or some other God to usurp to become the God of Creation because the title of God of Creation is something that is exclusive to the God of the Testament. If its something that not just Yahweh can have then why do they need to name themselves Elohim? Why not just go back in time and be their own God? That's because that empty role is for Yahweh/God of the Testament. That's why they need to precisely measure the space Yahweh's absence left, because it is something exclusive to Yahweh.
"Because Yahweh will renounce his throne, and leave his Creation to disintegrate behind him"
Also, the fact that The Jin En Moks and Silk Man, beings older than even the Presence/Yahweh (The Silk Man wasnt shaped by God's hand and came from a different version of Creation) himself calls him Yahweh is another indication that Yahweh is his "real" and oldest name.
Did I say that the Presence can't be a god in another belief system? Nope, just that Yahweh or the other names of the Abrahamic God is not just an aspect of The Presence but is its actual name oldest names where its power is derived from. The Hebrew God is where the power of the Presence's lie. Names are power. This has been shown multiple times like how everything in Creation is branded in Yahweh's name because it is the Divine Name.
This was shown in The Yahweh Dance when Elaine was training to be the God of her universe.
Aside from being worshipped as Elaine, she was also known and appeared as the Wolf God Aroone.
But despite that, we know that Elaine's "true" and oldest name is Elaine Belloc. She may be known as Aroone in another religion but the power doesn't come from Aroone, the power comes from Elaine because thats her real name beyond all those other names. It's the "Divine Name" in Elaines Creation.
That's the same as The Presence, the Presence might have other names but his name in the Judea-Christian mythologies are his oldest "true names"
Its the divine name that is engraved in everything in Creation which is what solidifies Yahweh as the God of Creation
The divine name (Read as Yahweh in Hebrew) written on Perdissa
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Anyway, I think Lucifer should have 2 keys
- Sandman/Lucifer (2000-2016) canon
I don't think this applies to this version
-Sandman/Lucifer (2018) canon
Possibly since Lucifer in this run was portrayed as a counterpart against the light of God. They're basically functions of the universe and Lucifer was stated to be unlike other angels/archangels with Lucifer even being described as the cornerstone of existence of the angels and even Michael himself(Though this Michael seems to be different from the 2000 Michael, having contradicting histories, powerlevel and whatnot)
- Sandman/Lucifer (2000-2016) canon
I don't think this applies to this version
-Sandman/Lucifer (2018) canon
Possibly since Lucifer in this run was portrayed as a counterpart against the light of God. They're basically functions of the universe and Lucifer was stated to be unlike other angels/archangels with Lucifer even being described as the cornerstone of existence of the angels and even Michael himself(Though this Michael seems to be different from the 2000 Michael, having contradicting histories, powerlevel and whatnot)
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Typical reply.
Make up your mind, since your point is based only on a past distinction, already addressed.
It is not by dismissing this point with negative claims that they are relevant.
This part is very funny in view of what you claim in the rest of your post that "I’m not distorting anything.", he says.
The evidence brought forward is not to show that the DC Universe takes into consideration different belief systems, which is quite obvious with the existence of all these figures, but that, based on your poor understanding of the DC Universe, a figure in one belief system could not have been identified with another from a different context for the poor reason that they are dinstincs and, yet, this is not what the evidence supports.
My second last post was very clear on this case.
It's more like something you deny.
The evidence in relation to Dan Watters has been put forward in the thread linked in my first post. For my part, I articulated in our disscusion the point that the Great Darkness falls into the category of figures part of beliefs sytem and, for someone asserting "I’m not distorting anything.", you keep strawmaning the point.
You are the one who mentionned the bible in a sentence with no connection. So, it is rather me to ask you the relevance of this sentence.
"I’m not distorting anything".
Another straw man, but we're used to it with you, since the point is not based on a so-called "parallel" between the American Gothic storyline and Genesis, in addition to being an absurd understanding of your interlocutor since the event in the "American Gothic" storyline is not even related to Genesis, but good try to have tried to distort the point by associating it to the storyline rather than on "the background" of the Great Darkness, which it himself told Etrigan, and is really the point.
It is even a point? Using the same evidence provided previously, Athske is a figure in Navajo belief system and Lucifer is a figure in Judeo-Chrisitan belief system, yet, they are regarded as one figure. Thus, the Great Darkness introduced as a figure in the context of a belief system is not even an issue.
Then you misunderstood this thread, which provides additional evidence agaisnt objections, one in particular as written in the thread, that were not addressed in the thread linked. So the thread is relevant since, roughly speaking, my thread is the continuation in terms of evidence. And since your point is a recycling from the thread, I refer you to this one where it was addressed.
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You started bringing up Dan Watters and saying he unified Lucifer to GEB. Which doesn’t address any of the past and current contradictions that makes this connection inconsistent.
lol my poor understanding of DC???? I’m the one who started bringing up belief systems years ago before you even came over here and made this thread. You’re not saying anything new to me. I’ve already heard this argument.
It’s not about them being distinct from one another. It’s about the fact that they were directly distinguished. If they had a some type of consistent connection this wouldn’t be happening.
Where? Be specific. I’m not going to assume what you’re trying to point out.
This is exactly what I said your argument was. So it’s literally impossible for me to be committing a strawman.
All I said was that it’s comics not the Bible in response to you bringing up how Genesis parallels to Swamp Thing issues 49-50
Now you’re just backpedaling. You literally brought up Genesis and talked about how the Great Darkness was introduced into the story to fit the particular belief system as shown in the quote.
“...but that the Great Darkness has been introduced as a figure to fit in the story of this belief system, in particular Genesis, by being the darkness opposing God's light in the Beginning.”
And now you’re saying this wasn’t your point. Make up your mind please
It wouldn’t be an issue if you have in material evidence for the Great Darkness being attached to a belief system besides just reinterpreting a scan that mentions the Great Darkness to be an absence of the Presence’s light.
I understand what’s the purpose of the thread. What I don’t understand is how linking me to the thread I created addresses the contradictions this would oppose on JLD which is one of the Great Darknesses final appearances.
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Anyoway this is going complete off topic.
I think this is the best move. The same goes for any other character connected to the Great Darkness.
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I'll end the quotation of this first part here, since you are addressing a point that was not even put forward, but was addressing the misconception that God/the Presence is particularly a "biblical/abrahamic God", not the possibility to defeat other gods to become God.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, because what follows is more interesting.
So, what was the point of addressing the importance of the name, when it wasn't even questioned? "Not just an aspect", in other words, still an aspect but the other elements other than its aspects have no real relevance in this thread, which does not mean that I am necessarily against.
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It's even worse than I thought, this is called an introduction. The development of the argument is after an introduction, what you don't seem to know about as the conclusion of this post does not suggest that previous distinctions are no longer relevant because of mere unification.
Your comments show the opposite.
You are repeating the same thing that they were treated as two different figures.
And the following sentence is a basless claim, as what it is "the consistent connection" leading Mike Carey to idenitify Lucifer with Áłtsé hashké? None. Having "a some type of consistent connection" is helpful in the case of strengthening the relationship between figures, but they depend first and foremost on the belief.
The same replies answering your reclycled point on JLD.
I was referring to the part where you say that sentence "I’m not distorting anything" where you indeed strawmaned the point, but I should have been clearer.
Finally you give meaning to your sentence. My point did not imply that Comics = Bible, and doesn't mean that this media can't introduce cosmogonies from religions, philopsophies, etc.
Finally you understand your strawman.
The so-called "parallel" on Genesis was not about any chapter of the story, let alone issues 49 and 50 in which the events are not related to Genesis but to the "background" of the Great Darkness, which I provided the scan for reference.
You should be concerned about you who seems lost with your strawman.
It is the Great Darkness claiming to be "before light" which has been asserted to be in the context of Genesis.
So, there is evidence, however, I expect a new way from you to reject these evidences or to repeat like a perrot, as you are used to, that there is no evidence showing the Great Darkness as part of a belief system.
This is not the thread, but the disscusion you had in thread where your point about the JLD has already been addressed. So I will address objections related to this new thread.
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I agree with this and am fine with if you apply such a revision soon.
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I never said that's what the conclusion of your original post was. What I'm arguing here was simply reasons to disagree with Lucifer = Great Darkness.
How? It's clear that my understanding of how DC treats it's systems of belief is much different from yours but that doesn't make me less knowledgeable.
No, I said they were distinguished in the past. And "consistent connection" as in one between Lucifer and the Great Darkness.
This isn't specific at all. This is you throwing out snarky remarks. Once again which reply.
Of course writers can introduce cosmogonies and philosophies to develop their own cosmologies. As long as we understand that DC is still it's own separate fictional universe and cannot be blended with the other material it took inspiration from, that's fine.
What do you mean by "background of the Great Darkness." This sentence is very vague. Mind being a bit clearer?
What do you mean by it's "been asserted in the context of Genesis?"
Which point? I had many. And how was it addressed?
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So, what was the point of addressing the importance of the name, when it wasn't even questioned? "Not just an aspect", in other words, still an aspect but the other elements other than its aspects have no real relevance in this thread, which does not mean that I am necessarily against.
I wrote that bit about the name in order to also address Amakasu's reply saying that the Titans just usurped the "name" making it sound like its no big deal when names are intimately connected to power in Lucifer.
Yahweh might be known to others in through different names but those names aren't the main source of his power and position. One of the most substantial evidence that The Presence is Yahweh, you know aside from being called Yahweh all the time, is that Yahweh's name is the one written in everything in Creation and that the throne of Creation belongs to Y|ahweh
It is even a point? Using the same evidence provided previously, Athske is a figure in Navajo belief system and Lucifer is a figure in Judeo-Chrisitan belief system, yet, they are regarded as one figure. Thus, the Great Darkness introduced as a figure in the context of a belief system is not even an issue.
They are regarded as the same figure, but are they actually the same? Lucifer and Satan are also often times regarded as the same figure but we know that Lucifer and Satan are different entities, Satan is the First of the Fallen and not Lucifer Morningstar. Lucifer may be associated and called that name but they're definitely distinct characters
A navajo man calling Lucifer atse hashke may as well mean somebody calling someone "the devil" because of their devilish traits. This may as well be a navajo equivalent of that.
Also, we actually met the Navajo/Native American God Coyote when he made a bet with another unnamed entity/god simply known as the Gambler. And its definitely not Lucifer (Lucifer does not know about Noema's/Jill whereabouts until her birth because Noema was hiding from him and he only discovered her whereabouts because she brought him there. On the other hand, The Gambler and Coyote already knew where Noema and Jill is and where they will go. Also, Lucifer promised to not harm Noema until she harms him first, Coyote was planning to kill Noema before she was even born)
Rachel's grandfather calling Lucifer Áłtsé hashké doesnt automatically means Lucifer is part of the Navajo mythology, Áłtsé hashké
isn't even the actual name of a Navajo God, its just what they call him which means the first scolder.
So I, just to reiterate my position on this, I agree if we're only applying this only to the The Sandman/Lucifer (2018) key but I disagree with applying this to Lucifer(200)
I wrote that bit about the name in order to also address Amakasu's reply saying that the Titans just usurped the "name" making it sound like its no big deal when names are intimately connected to power in Lucifer.
Yahweh might be known to others in through different names but those names aren't the main source of his power and position. One of the most substantial evidence that The Presence is Yahweh, you know aside from being called Yahweh all the time, is that Yahweh's name is the one written in everything in Creation and that the throne of Creation belongs to Y|ahweh
It is even a point? Using the same evidence provided previously, Athske is a figure in Navajo belief system and Lucifer is a figure in Judeo-Chrisitan belief system, yet, they are regarded as one figure. Thus, the Great Darkness introduced as a figure in the context of a belief system is not even an issue.
They are regarded as the same figure, but are they actually the same? Lucifer and Satan are also often times regarded as the same figure but we know that Lucifer and Satan are different entities, Satan is the First of the Fallen and not Lucifer Morningstar. Lucifer may be associated and called that name but they're definitely distinct characters
A navajo man calling Lucifer atse hashke may as well mean somebody calling someone "the devil" because of their devilish traits. This may as well be a navajo equivalent of that.
Also, we actually met the Navajo/Native American God Coyote when he made a bet with another unnamed entity/god simply known as the Gambler. And its definitely not Lucifer (Lucifer does not know about Noema's/Jill whereabouts until her birth because Noema was hiding from him and he only discovered her whereabouts because she brought him there. On the other hand, The Gambler and Coyote already knew where Noema and Jill is and where they will go. Also, Lucifer promised to not harm Noema until she harms him first, Coyote was planning to kill Noema before she was even born)
Rachel's grandfather calling Lucifer Áłtsé hashké doesnt automatically means Lucifer is part of the Navajo mythology, Áłtsé hashké
isn't even the actual name of a Navajo God, its just what they call him which means the first scolder.
So I, just to reiterate my position on this, I agree if we're only applying this only to the The Sandman/Lucifer (2018) key but I disagree with applying this to Lucifer(200)
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@Sandman31
Look, as I have repeatedly said, your suggestion to create separate statistics keys or profile pages has already been accepted. You can apply it whenever you wish, but I would appreciate if you do so as quickly as possible.
Look, as I have repeatedly said, your suggestion to create separate statistics keys or profile pages has already been accepted. You can apply it whenever you wish, but I would appreciate if you do so as quickly as possible.
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It's pretty obvious Dan Waters is just an idiot who didn't understand all previous stories and his assertion is completely incongruent with everything that came before
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I think that the problem lies in DC's editorial department under Dan Didio and Jim Lee supposedly explicitly ordering their writers to almost do whatever they want without caring about continuity.
Also, you know that I despise that both the Marvel and DC editorial departments have turned what was once great into incoherent messes, but please try to avoid using the word "idiots" when referring to them.
Also, you know that I despise that both the Marvel and DC editorial departments have turned what was once great into incoherent messes, but please try to avoid using the word "idiots" when referring to them.
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Yeah, sure, I'll see if I can make a draft tomorrow just want to debate all the points being brought against it since I'm planning on leaving the site again (not sure for how long) once all the threads that I'm involved in is done.
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As adressed above, God/the Presence is not part of a particular belief, so the point that the Titan brothers tried to usurp particulary Yahweh means just, by taking into account that that God/the Presence is indentified in the context of different belief systems , that it was more advantageous, for them, to usurp Yahweh than another one on the hierarchical level.
This does not contradict that God/the Presence can't be God in another context of belief system. God/the Presence as Yahweh is one his aspects in the context of this belief system is not an evidence.
No, there's no proof that they can become God by replacing other gods from other beliefs because, I repeat this this again, there is an order created by the Gods and in that order Yahweh, the God of the Testament, is the God of Creation. There's nothing indicating that they could have chosen Zeus or some other God to usurp to become the God of Creation because the title of God of Creation is something that is exclusive to the God of the Testament. If its something that not just Yahweh can have then why do they need to name themselves Elohim? Why not just go back in time and be their own God? That's because that empty role is for Yahweh/God of the Testament. That's why they need to precisely measure the space Yahweh's absence left, because it is something exclusive to Yahweh.
"Because Yahweh will renounce his throne, and leave his Creation to disintegrate behind him"
Also, the fact that The Jin En Moks and Silk Man, beings older than even the Presence/Yahweh (The Silk Man wasnt shaped by God's hand and came from a different version of Creation) himself calls him Yahweh is another indication that Yahweh is his "real" and oldest name.
Did I say that the Presence can't be a god in another belief system? Nope, just that Yahweh or the other names of the Abrahamic God is not just an aspect of The Presence but is its actual name oldest names where its power is derived from. The Hebrew God is where the power of the Presence's lie. Names are power. This has been shown multiple times like how everything in Creation is branded in Yahweh's name because it is the Divine Name.
This was shown in The Yahweh Dance when Elaine was training to be the God of her universe.
Aside from being worshipped as Elaine, she was also known and appeared as the Wolf God Aroone.
But despite that, we know that Elaine's "true" and oldest name is Elaine Belloc. She may be known as Aroone in another religion but the power doesn't come from Aroone, the power comes from Elaine because thats her real name beyond all those other names. It's the "Divine Name" in Elaines Creation.
That's the same as The Presence, the Presence might have other names but his name in the Judea-Christian mythologies are his oldest "true names"
Its the divine name that is engraved in everything in Creation which is what solidifies Yahweh as the God of Creation
The divine name (Read as Yahweh in Hebrew) written on Perdissa
Silkman and the Jin En Mok are not older than the Presence, lol.
They can’t even be older than Lucifer, as he was created in the void where there is no time, let alone the Presence.
Of course the Jin En Mok existed before there was a god to curse the demons, the Presence wasn't God before creation was made, what whould he be the god of?
And even inferior, less important beings than the Presence, like Michael, have different aspects and names. Note: Michael is not just known by Kali, he is Kali.
The Presence definitly have different aspects, and Yahweh is one of them, but also is Allah and the others, and I don't think there is such a thing as the main or true one, it's just that titans knew him by that aspect like most of the SoTG do, there are no aspects that are illusionary and others that are true. I don't think there's an evidence to that.
They're all true, all the Presence.
To compare Elaine, who’s only a half angel, and at the point of making her cosmos, an archangel, to the supreme being that is beyond comprehension, isn't really a good way to make an example.
The Presence describes himself as infinite and eternal like the void, which at least should mean they have the same attributes.
So, I think the dreams have shaped the Presence, which is only an aspect of the supreme being that he uses to interact with his creation, like the voice.
Also, Destiny of The Endless, the oldest of the Endless, exists only as a side effect of the supreme being. So, it wouldn't make sense for a younger brother like Dream to have given the supreme being his power. I think it just gave him an aspect.
Anyway, I think the GEB thing is just a retcon, just like the FoTF being Lucifer. They were both distinguished as a different characters
This comic ignored several comics that came before it to become it's own thing.
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First of the fallen is not lucifer
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Lucifer called himself the First of the Fallen in the 2018 run
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Are you saying that once Creation gets destroyed then the Presence is no longer a God? That doesn't even make sense. The Presence is a god because of his power, the Presence isn't a king whos title solely relies on his domain, the Presence is called a God because he has the power of a God.
And so what if Lucifer was created in the Void? The Jin En moks were literally described to be God's who floats in the Void before being stucked in Creation. Also, Lucifer wasnt created in the Void, he was created in the darkness before Creation which is not quite the same as the Void.
I'm not saying the Presence doesn't have aspects, read again. Just that Yahweh is his real name. You don't have to use headcanon when we perfectly know why the Titans chose to usurp Yahweh and place themselves in the Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic mythology, its because it has been explicitly stated that the God of Creation is Yahweh and that the Divine Name which means his oldest name, is what holds Creation together and that name is Yahweh. Now that Yahweh is gone they took another of name of Yahweh which refers to him in plural form so that they can place themselves as God of Creation. If they chose to usurp other gods then they won't become the God of Creation because it is Yahweh that is missing so they can only use names like Elohim which is just the Hebrew way of calling yahweh in plural form.
Just like how Elaine's divine name is Elaine Belloc despite her being known as both Aroone the Wolf God and Elaine in her Creation.
Doesn't matter if Elaine is only an archangel, the way the verse operates doesn't change. He is arguing about the belief system and the power of beliefs, also look at the OP, this is mostly about Lucifer, the Presence just got dragged into it because he isn't talking about a specific singular entity but about the system in which the Presence is a part of.
The Presence said he is eternal and infinite but was also shaped by external forces. That doesnt mean he's the Void, hell the reason why he escaped to the Void was because its the place where he's not all powerful and is the only place where he can experience randomness
The FoTF is not Lucifer
And so what if Lucifer was created in the Void? The Jin En moks were literally described to be God's who floats in the Void before being stucked in Creation. Also, Lucifer wasnt created in the Void, he was created in the darkness before Creation which is not quite the same as the Void.
I'm not saying the Presence doesn't have aspects, read again. Just that Yahweh is his real name. You don't have to use headcanon when we perfectly know why the Titans chose to usurp Yahweh and place themselves in the Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic mythology, its because it has been explicitly stated that the God of Creation is Yahweh and that the Divine Name which means his oldest name, is what holds Creation together and that name is Yahweh. Now that Yahweh is gone they took another of name of Yahweh which refers to him in plural form so that they can place themselves as God of Creation. If they chose to usurp other gods then they won't become the God of Creation because it is Yahweh that is missing so they can only use names like Elohim which is just the Hebrew way of calling yahweh in plural form.
Just like how Elaine's divine name is Elaine Belloc despite her being known as both Aroone the Wolf God and Elaine in her Creation.
Doesn't matter if Elaine is only an archangel, the way the verse operates doesn't change. He is arguing about the belief system and the power of beliefs, also look at the OP, this is mostly about Lucifer, the Presence just got dragged into it because he isn't talking about a specific singular entity but about the system in which the Presence is a part of.
The Presence said he is eternal and infinite but was also shaped by external forces. That doesnt mean he's the Void, hell the reason why he escaped to the Void was because its the place where he's not all powerful and is the only place where he can experience randomness
The FoTF is not Lucifer
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@Sandman31 the jin enk moks are fodder
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They're fodder because theyre depowered. Their true forms were stated to be Void Gods larger than Creations that are unbound by Space/ Time. It was also stated that Cestis regaining her true form would destroy all of Creation as a side effect.
"Its been too long. She wants to get naked. The end of Creation is just a side effect. But its a pretty funky one all things considered"
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When was it stated that way? Plus lucifer one shot silk man anyway
I don't remember that happening
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"Its been too long. She wants to get naked. The end of Creation is just a side effect. But its a pretty funky one all things considered
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That's just him saying that he was the first angel to fall from heaven, he's not saying that he is the first of the fallen.
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The text seems very vauge, like is she saying that her going to the void will destroy creation as a side effect or something else entirely?
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Don't really care, he is maybe more powerful than them anyway.
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Just saying I liked how Neil gaimain made the Presence and lucifer like the top dogs of DC and mike Carey had to use the system of belief and other random gods that were not needed for the story. Wished Grant Morrison had written lucifer rather than Mike carey (just a personal opinion)
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Ehh, I still have lucifer above themHer being "naked" will destroy Creation.
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I'm saying that the supreme being, the one that the Presence is an aspect of, is originally neutral like the void, beyond definitions, and without personality. Dreams, Lucifer, creation and all that are what gave him definition, made him God, the Presence, Yahweh, Allah and all these aspects which he used to interact with them. That's also proven by the last chapter of Lucifer 2018, where the Presence loses his form and becomes neutral after Lucifer was erased. Because Lucifer is one of the things that defines that supreme being.
Either way Lucifer was created in a place that is outside of creation and beyond time, so the Jin En Mok can't be older than him. The status of the Jin En Mok and their power is irrelevant. The point standstill, they can’t predate Lucifer who is a creation of the Presence, let alone the Presence himself.
When Lucifer wrote the Presence's name on his door, he said he only needs one of his names. We can't come to a conclusion that this is the only name that would do the job, but only one of them.
The belief systems are disconnected to the worshippers, but to the Presence, Michael, Lucifer, and the Endless they're connected. They're all these beings.
So, no. I think the titans could have chosen any other belief system and it would have worked.
Elaine have an original name she was born with, the supreme being wasn't born, he predates everything. So, yeah. She doesn't work as an example.
Reread chapter 75 of Lucifer. The Presence tells Lucifer the story of Buddha and the monkey king, to imply that the void is nowhere near beyond his power. So, he is not powerless in the void. The Presence is omniscient and omnipresent. He simply disabled these abilities for this creation to experience randomness.
And I didn't say the the Presence is the void.
Lucifer called himself FoTF in the 2018 run. And I already gave my opinion about this thread that connecting either the GEB or FoFT is not convincing, because I think this only a retcon. I don't know how you guys handle retcons in this forum. I was just pointing that I disagree with pretty much everything you said in your post.
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>I'm saying that the supreme being, the one that the Presence is an aspect of, is originally neutral like the void, beyond definitions, and without personality. Dreams, Lucifer, creation and all that are what gave him definition, made him God, the Presence, Yahweh, Allah and all these aspects which he used to interact with them. That's also proven by the last chapter of Lucifer 2018, where the Presence loses his form and becomes neutral after Lucifer was erased. Because Lucifer is one of the things that defines that supreme being.
We're going to have a different key for 2018 Lucifer/Presence because of how contradictory it was to the original run plus the author saying that they only used Sandman as their primary material
>Either way Lucifer was created in a place that is outside of creation and beyond time, so the Jin En Mok can't be older than him. The status of the Jin En Mok and their power is irrelevant. The point standstill, they can’t predate Lucifer who is a creation of the Presence, let alone the Presence himself.
You offered no proof, nothing. The Jin En Moks were specifically stated to be older than the Presence and has existed since the first cosmos. Theres nothing that contradicst this and is well supported in the series
There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .
"Before there were demons, or a hell to put them in, or a God to curse them--there was Cestis--of the dancing flesh"
There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God
"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"
The Endless likely exists in all these versions of Creation, or at least a version of them, Death was the only Endless was stated to last longer that the present version of Creation
"And even our existence is brief and bounded, none of us will last longer than this version of Creation"
"Except our sister"
[http:// http://2.bp.blogspot.com/h2q1WIXtMP...at6JSwDdYx0KyBXRi7F1usbtKP3OvNyhzDB3I8x=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/h2q1WIXtMP...at6JSwDdYx0KyBXRi7F1usbtKP3OvNyhzDB3I8x=s1600]
"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"
Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers.
[http:// http://2.bp.blogspot.com/pkMfTZT0sh...41g_2blLXdp8xer3CHvTRlEISJf3G7KuJbrWtDq=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/pkMfTZT0sh...41g_2blLXdp8xer3CHvTRlEISJf3G7KuJbrWtDq=s1600]
"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"
In the Void, you see this Creation as seperate, but these Creations are all the same but different version of Creation but since time doesnt have meaning in the Void they appear to exists silmultaneously
You can see this when Lucifer flew into the Void
"There is nothing, there is, has been, will be nothing. All the same, always. But this-this is a possibility, Burgeoning now where nothing was. And being something in the midst of nothing, it becomes the center of focus
So theres previous version of Creation and the current one isnt even the first, even the Presence/Yahweh is is not the first Creator. There were other Creators and theres going to be other Creators aside from the Presence.
If you're only argument is that "No, they cant be older he was born beyond outside of space and time" then forgive if I'm not really convinced. If Lucifer was born in the Void outside of Creation then why would he need the letter of the Presence to go there? He cant even go to the Void by himself, he needed the Letter of Passage by Presence to go to the Void.
The Jin En Moks were beings from the first version of the Cosmos. Theyre older than the Presence, they're older than Creation, they even know of other Makers and Creations aside from the Presence.
>When Lucifer wrote the Presence's name on his door, he said he only needs one of his names. We can't come to a conclusion that this is the only name that would do the job, but only one of them.
And that doesnt contradict what I said. I said that The Presence is Yahweh/the God of Covenant. Lucifer saying Yahweh has many names doesnt contradict that. The biblical/abrahamic God has many names that are derivatives of each other
The abrahamic God actually has over 100 names.
https://urbanareas.net/info/100-biblical-names-god/
The Titans almost became God of Creation because they took one of Yahweh's name, and because of that they sort of become of part of Yahweh himself and they received the power that Yahweh would have gotten because now that Yahweh's gone this power no goes to them as they already earned the right to be called Elohim because of the miracles they performed to the people that will worship Yahweh
The belief systems are disconnected to the worshippers, but to the Presence, Michael, Lucifer, and the Endless they're connected. They're all these beings.
So, no. I think the titans could have chosen any other belief system and it would have worked.
You could believe all you want but that means nothing without evidence, its pretty clear that they need to choose judaism/abrahamic fate if they want to become God of Creation because there is an order made by the Gods.
Also, are you forgetting the fact that the titans themselves are part of a belief system? if they can choose any belief system then why not just choose their own and establish themselves as God of Creation?
Because it wont work. The God of Coventant, Yahweh, is the God of Creation. They can choose to hijack other religions but they wont become God of Creation because in the order of the gods, Yahweh is the God of Creation
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/QjAcihu6HN3czRZ7TRrLalsDJgUEfIiNKZTRnVK6X2Q7QdafIhJbc6oL4OYNoKnAmAb72TDqseEr=s1600
"Yahweh?, which one is he?"
"The God of the Covenant. The God of Creation"
Also, from the scan you yourself was referring to.
"He is Lucifer. The Lightbringer. His oldest name given by God"
What belief system does Lucifer came from? Who is the God in that belief system? Yahweh or the God of Covenant
Also, the titan brothers did consider usurping other gods/belief systems but they didn't because they want to imprint themselves into older orders
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/QjAcihu6H...VK6X2Q7QdafIhJbc6oL4OYNoKnAmAb72TDqseEr=s1600
"And without the the orders established by the gods, our own position becomes difficult"
"It becomes untenable. But there are older orders. Let us graft ourselves into them"
They tried to impersonate the Endless by calling themselves "Deceit and Duplicity" but they werent successful and thats when they thought of usurping Yahweh.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Jvm0Si4X8...2k7zK1Qrg5wNZBMysxXNgdLRnMZEg1Wq9DljHzm=s1600
"I have a mind to try something a little more ambitious. If the absence of Yahweh is the root of our problem --- then why not become him?"
So no, the titans couldnt have chosen any belief. They thought of doing so but they decided to imprint themselves on older orders (The Endless) and when that didn't work thats when they thought of replacing Yahweh.
Order of the gods < The Endless < Yahweh (the oldest order)
Reread chapter 75 of Lucifer. The Presence tells Lucifer the story of Buddha and the monkey king, to imply that the void is nowhere near beyond his power. So, he is not powerless in the void. The Presence is omniscient and omnipresent. He simply disabled these abilities for this creation to experience randomness.
I dont know how you read that and came to the conclusion that the Presence's power, like his power over Creation, extends out to the Void when just like the page before, the Presence said that the Void is outside the Plan
We're going to have a different key for 2018 Lucifer/Presence because of how contradictory it was to the original run plus the author saying that they only used Sandman as their primary material
>Either way Lucifer was created in a place that is outside of creation and beyond time, so the Jin En Mok can't be older than him. The status of the Jin En Mok and their power is irrelevant. The point standstill, they can’t predate Lucifer who is a creation of the Presence, let alone the Presence himself.
You offered no proof, nothing. The Jin En Moks were specifically stated to be older than the Presence and has existed since the first cosmos. Theres nothing that contradicst this and is well supported in the series
There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .
"Before there were demons, or a hell to put them in, or a God to curse them--there was Cestis--of the dancing flesh"
There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God
"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"
The Endless likely exists in all these versions of Creation, or at least a version of them, Death was the only Endless was stated to last longer that the present version of Creation
"And even our existence is brief and bounded, none of us will last longer than this version of Creation"
"Except our sister"
[http:// http://2.bp.blogspot.com/h2q1WIXtMP...at6JSwDdYx0KyBXRi7F1usbtKP3OvNyhzDB3I8x=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/h2q1WIXtMP...at6JSwDdYx0KyBXRi7F1usbtKP3OvNyhzDB3I8x=s1600]
"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"
Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers.
[http:// http://2.bp.blogspot.com/pkMfTZT0sh...41g_2blLXdp8xer3CHvTRlEISJf3G7KuJbrWtDq=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/pkMfTZT0sh...41g_2blLXdp8xer3CHvTRlEISJf3G7KuJbrWtDq=s1600]
"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"
In the Void, you see this Creation as seperate, but these Creations are all the same but different version of Creation but since time doesnt have meaning in the Void they appear to exists silmultaneously
You can see this when Lucifer flew into the Void
"There is nothing, there is, has been, will be nothing. All the same, always. But this-this is a possibility, Burgeoning now where nothing was. And being something in the midst of nothing, it becomes the center of focus
So theres previous version of Creation and the current one isnt even the first, even the Presence/Yahweh is is not the first Creator. There were other Creators and theres going to be other Creators aside from the Presence.
If you're only argument is that "No, they cant be older he was born beyond outside of space and time" then forgive if I'm not really convinced. If Lucifer was born in the Void outside of Creation then why would he need the letter of the Presence to go there? He cant even go to the Void by himself, he needed the Letter of Passage by Presence to go to the Void.
The Jin En Moks were beings from the first version of the Cosmos. Theyre older than the Presence, they're older than Creation, they even know of other Makers and Creations aside from the Presence.
>When Lucifer wrote the Presence's name on his door, he said he only needs one of his names. We can't come to a conclusion that this is the only name that would do the job, but only one of them.
And that doesnt contradict what I said. I said that The Presence is Yahweh/the God of Covenant. Lucifer saying Yahweh has many names doesnt contradict that. The biblical/abrahamic God has many names that are derivatives of each other
The abrahamic God actually has over 100 names.
https://urbanareas.net/info/100-biblical-names-god/
The Titans almost became God of Creation because they took one of Yahweh's name, and because of that they sort of become of part of Yahweh himself and they received the power that Yahweh would have gotten because now that Yahweh's gone this power no goes to them as they already earned the right to be called Elohim because of the miracles they performed to the people that will worship Yahweh
The belief systems are disconnected to the worshippers, but to the Presence, Michael, Lucifer, and the Endless they're connected. They're all these beings.
So, no. I think the titans could have chosen any other belief system and it would have worked.
You could believe all you want but that means nothing without evidence, its pretty clear that they need to choose judaism/abrahamic fate if they want to become God of Creation because there is an order made by the Gods.
Also, are you forgetting the fact that the titans themselves are part of a belief system? if they can choose any belief system then why not just choose their own and establish themselves as God of Creation?
Because it wont work. The God of Coventant, Yahweh, is the God of Creation. They can choose to hijack other religions but they wont become God of Creation because in the order of the gods, Yahweh is the God of Creation
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/QjAcihu6HN3czRZ7TRrLalsDJgUEfIiNKZTRnVK6X2Q7QdafIhJbc6oL4OYNoKnAmAb72TDqseEr=s1600
"Yahweh?, which one is he?"
"The God of the Covenant. The God of Creation"
Also, from the scan you yourself was referring to.
"He is Lucifer. The Lightbringer. His oldest name given by God"
What belief system does Lucifer came from? Who is the God in that belief system? Yahweh or the God of Covenant
Also, the titan brothers did consider usurping other gods/belief systems but they didn't because they want to imprint themselves into older orders
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/QjAcihu6H...VK6X2Q7QdafIhJbc6oL4OYNoKnAmAb72TDqseEr=s1600
"And without the the orders established by the gods, our own position becomes difficult"
"It becomes untenable. But there are older orders. Let us graft ourselves into them"
They tried to impersonate the Endless by calling themselves "Deceit and Duplicity" but they werent successful and thats when they thought of usurping Yahweh.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Jvm0Si4X8...2k7zK1Qrg5wNZBMysxXNgdLRnMZEg1Wq9DljHzm=s1600
"I have a mind to try something a little more ambitious. If the absence of Yahweh is the root of our problem --- then why not become him?"
So no, the titans couldnt have chosen any belief. They thought of doing so but they decided to imprint themselves on older orders (The Endless) and when that didn't work thats when they thought of replacing Yahweh.
Order of the gods < The Endless < Yahweh (the oldest order)
Reread chapter 75 of Lucifer. The Presence tells Lucifer the story of Buddha and the monkey king, to imply that the void is nowhere near beyond his power. So, he is not powerless in the void. The Presence is omniscient and omnipresent. He simply disabled these abilities for this creation to experience randomness.
I dont know how you read that and came to the conclusion that the Presence's power, like his power over Creation, extends out to the Void when just like the page before, the Presence said that the Void is outside the Plan
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