ETSO Reio35 Edition

[Arc7Kuroi]

Introduction
So I'm evil now this is a tentative downgrade maybe it won't end up as a downgrade, but I'll elaborate further. This is clearly the brain child of Deceived.

Addressing ETSO's Creation
Our creation page states the following,

Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

The obvious implication here is that creation feats need a combat applicable timeframe in order to be quantifiable for AP. And in the instance in which the timeframe is not combat applicable, but it is known, we simply divide by the timeframe in seconds to get a yield in energy per second. This is seen all throughout the wiki commonly with overtime feats, but as for a creation feat that follows this protocol look no further this calc. In the aforementioned calc and realm with a star is created over 3 days, and we divide by that time to get the feat quantifiably at High 5-A.

Why this matters for the ETSO is because, as far as I am aware, there is no means of reasonably obtaining a timeframe for how long it would take the ETSO to create a realm with a star. The ETSO never stays around long enough to expand across an AU's distance to consume a star as we currently treat it capable of, and it doesn't appear to have been expanding quickly at all, it only reached the size of a large mountain. I believe we have even less indication of how long it would take for its creation. If that is the case, the feat is unquantifiable and its rating would need to get removed from Kaguya's verse page.

Conclusion
The ETSO needs to have its rating removed if there is no means of reasonably quantifying a short time frame or a timeframe at all. However, if someone can quantify a timeframe we can adjust the feat by dividing by said timeframe to accurately quantify it. Let's keep it civil and I'm interested to hear anyone's thoughts on obtaining a timeframe here.

Agree: ingempest, amage, ubin (maybe change the rating to possibly), LOL, ordracer, ordriffin (fine with a possibly)
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Deceived3596]

Bitchass didn't even reference me in the OP even though i asked him to do so.

Weakass thread from a beta male soylent drinker.

Disagree.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bitchass didn't even reference me in the OP even though i asked him to do so.

Weakass thread from a beta male soylent drinker.

Disagree.

mf can't even read the intro section

 

[KingTempest]

Makes sense

 

[Deceived3596]

mf can't even read the intro section

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Deepfake

 

[Deceived3596]

Deepfake

@Wrath_Of_Itachi You better prepare those counter-measures bozo.

Also to stop trolling for one moment i agree with this thread.

 

[Dalesean027]

This serms sensible

 

[PrinceofPein]

The time frame for her drawing Chakra or just the start of the ETSO?
Anime time frame looks good, Manga looks shorter than anime time frame tho

 

[Damage3245]

This downgrade seems okay to me.

 

[Avengershows]

Can't we use the anime for a timeframe or something? Iirc it does expand slightly during that scene so it should be usable(?)

 

[RanaProGamer]

Introduction
So I'm evil now this is a tentative downgrade maybe it won't end up as a downgrade, but I'll elaborate further. This is clearly the brain child of Deceived.

Everyone to Arc after he just got Naruto to 5-A:

 

[Avengershows]

Did a very jagged and rough calc (based on the manga) and the expansion rate is somewhere around 83.72 m/s

 

[Tatsumi504]

Disagree with this. Why are you assuming that the ETSO itself has yo expand yo that size? Its supposed to be an explosion once it's amassed enough chakra, not literally expand to cover the entire dimension

 

[Hasty12345]

Disagree with this. Why are you assuming that the ETSO itself has yo expand yo that size? Its supposed to be an explosion once it's amassed enough chakra, not literally expand to cover the entire dimension

then why is it called the "EXPANSIVE Truth Seeking Orb" huh. GGs concession accepted.

 

[Tatsumi504]

then why is it called the "EXPANSIVE Truth Seeking Orb" huh. GGs concession accepted.

Wtf? What does the name have to do with it? If it really has to expand to cover everything then anyone could whoop kaguya's ass within that time.

Bring a better argument

 

[KLOL506]

Disagree with this. Why are you assuming that the ETSO itself has yo expand yo that size? Its supposed to be an explosion once it's amassed enough chakra, not literally expand to cover the entire dimension

It's not so much about the explosion but rather about the creation itself. Can't tier the explosion anyway because it's Existence Erasure hax.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It's not so much about the explosion but rather about the creation itself. Can't tier the explosion anyway because it's Existence Erasure hax.

Why tier the creation then? There's no way it'll expand to that size which is supported by the fact that we've seen previous explosions done with the TSO before so it's definitely an explosion.

"Can't tier the explosion anyway because it's Existence Erasure hax" this is understandable but then why not leave its tier according to its assumed range?

 

[Damage3245]

Wtf? What does the name have to do with it? If it really has to expand to cover everything then anyone could whoop kaguya's ass within that time.

Bring a better argument

Why does that matter?

 

[KLOL506]

Why tier the creation then?

Because the realm was created by it?

There's no way it'll expand to that size which is supported by the fact that we've seen previous explosions done with the TSO before so it's definitely an explosion.

Whether it expands or not is completely irrelevant if it creates the realm regardless.

"Can't tier the explosion anyway because it's Existence Erasure hax" this is understandable but then why not leave its tier according to its assumed range?

Because it's called Attack Potency for a reason, not Destructive Capacity. We don't calculate AP via its area of effect, but rather by its energy yield equivalent in joules, tons of TNT, Foe and the like.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Aight jokes aside, I always assumed that the timeframe wasn't big due to the dialogue. Like Kakashi saying that simply going to the Kamui dimension would be of no use if there's no dimension to return to. I'd assume that meant a couple of minutes at most.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Since the timeframe’s unknown, maybe a “possibly” rating is warranted? I don’t know much about the ETSO, but in the games, it like blows up in a fast explosion

 

[KingTempest]

Game profiles can get that then, but since the fight went on for a decent timeframe and it couldn't even take up the planet they were on, there's no reason to assume it's on that tier

 

[The_Alxhemist]

But there's equally not enough reason to outright remove it. As MitchAubin said a "possibly" rating imo is the closest to accurate we can get.

We know in that fight ETSO was meant to end it all in no time. There's no way to estimate how short a time it was, but perhaps we could use a 5 hour timeframe? It's not not too high and at the same time not too low considering the circumstances of that situation.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I disagree with arbitrarily assigning a time frame to the length it’d take for etso to create a new realm, there’s nothing to justify that outside of “I think this could be fine”. Also, the etso’s creation speed is never hinted at as fast or slow, in the manga we aren’t given any indication of how long it’d take. And as far as assigning a possibly rating, I don’t think that addresses the issue. As per our AP page:

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

No one has provided any basis at all for the feat being instant to warrant even considering a possibly.

Lastly, and idk how legit this is, but if the etso expansion speed is actually 83 m/s, it would take ~60 years to reach the sun. And if that’s any indication of how fast it performs then it most certainly needs to lose this rating.

@KLOL506 can I get a clarification on your stance, you seem to agree with me but I want to double check.

 

[Samlex1234]

Introduction
So I'm evil now this is a tentative downgrade maybe it won't end up as a downgrade, but I'll elaborate further. This is clearly the brain child of Deceived.

Addressing ETSO's Creation
Our creation page states the following,

Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

The obvious implication here is that creation feats need a combat applicable timeframe in order to be quantifiable for AP. And in the instance in which the timeframe is not combat applicable, but it is known, we simply divide by the timeframe in seconds to get a yield in energy per second. This is seen all throughout the wiki commonly with overtime feats, but as for a creation feat that follows this protocol look no further this calc. In the aforementioned calc and realm with a star is created over 3 days, and we divide by that time to get the feat quantifiably at High 5-A.

Why this matters for the ETSO is because, as far as I am aware, there is no means of reasonably obtaining a timeframe for how long it would take the ETSO to create a realm with a star. The ETSO never stays around long enough to expand across an AU's distance to consume a star as we currently treat it capable of, and it doesn't appear to have been expanding quickly at all, it only reached the size of a large mountain. I believe we have even less indication of how long it would take for its creation. If that is the case, the feat is unquantifiable and its rating would need to get removed from Kaguya's verse page.

Conclusion
The ETSO needs to have its rating removed if there is no means of reasonably quantifying a short time frame or a timeframe at all. However, if someone can quantify a timeframe we can adjust the feat by dividing by said timeframe to accurately quantify it. Let's keep it civil and I'm interested to hear anyone's thoughts on obtaining a timeframe here.

Agree: ingempest, amage, ubin (maybe change the rating to possibly), LOL (?)
Neutral:
Disagree:

don’t we have a standard for a created pocket dimension?
especially for a star like the sun?
why is only ETSO brought up when they are several pocket dimension feats on the wiki that has large star with no specific timeframe?

 

[Samlex1234]

don’t we have a standard for a created pocket dimension?

Honestly at this point I don’t care if this goes to zero nobody scales to it so it is pretty much useless.

 

[KLOL506]

I disagree with arbitrarily assigning a time frame to the length it’d take for etso to create a new realm, there’s nothing to justify that outside of “I think this could be fine”. Also, the etso’s creation speed is never hinted at as fast or slow, in the manga we aren’t given any indication of how long it’d take. And as far as assigning a possibly rating, I don’t think that addresses the issue. As per our AP page:

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

No one has provided any basis at all for the feat being instant to warrant even considering a possibly.

Lastly, and idk how legit this is, but if the etso expansion speed is actually 83 m/s, it would take ~60 years to reach the sun. And if that’s any indication of how fast it performs then it most certainly needs to lose this rating.

60 years is too asinine a timeframe to apply to this feat for either creation or erasure in any sense of the form. There's absolutely no reason for Kaguya to **** around and find out with that slow of an expansion rate, otherwise everyone would view it as too slow to even bother with.

@KLOL506 can I get a clarification on your stance, you seem to agree with me but I want to double check.

I do agree with the reduction as long as the proper source for the timeframe is chosen.

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly at this point I don’t care if this goes to zero nobody scales to it so it is pretty much useless.

Fair point, I guess?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

don’t we have a standard for a created pocket dimension?

Yes and in the standard I quoted, for it to be AP quantifiable it needs to happen in a reasonably short timeframe.

60 years is too asinine a timeframe to apply to this feat for either creation or erasure in any sense of the form. There's absolutely no reason for Kaguya to **** around and find out with that slow of an expansion rate, otherwise everyone would view it as too slow to even bother with.

I’m not claiming it would or wouldn’t, I was just commenting on the post about it being calc’d to 83 m/s. But truthfully it seems we have no way to accurately quantify the ETSO creation timeframe at the moment.

I do agree with the reduction as long as the proper source for the timeframe is chosen.

 

[Samlex1234]

Honestly at this point I don’t care if this goes to zero nobody scales to it so it is pretty much useless.

60 years is too asinine a timeframe to apply to this feat for either creation or erasure in any sense of the form. There's absolutely no reason for Kaguya to **** around and find out with that slow of an expansion rate, otherwise everyone would view it as too slow to even bother with.


I do agree with the reduction as long as the proper source for the timeframe is chosen.

And isn’t she going to be creating 6 dimensions?

 

[Samlex1234]

Yes and in the standard I quoted, for it to be AP quantifiable it needs to happen in a reasonably short timeframe.



I’m not claiming it would or wouldn’t, I was just commenting on the post about it being calc’d to 83 m/s. But truthfully it seems we have no way to accurately quantify the ETSO creation timeframe at the moment.

Honestly at this point is the perfect time to whoop out universal kaguya, no way the naruto fans settled for large star with nobody scaling and you still created a downgrade. smh

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

you still created a downgrade.

 

[Samlex1234]

Well one thing that is going to give me joy from the downgrade is that the lies on kaguya page will finally leave.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Aight jokes aside, I always assumed that the timeframe wasn't big due to the dialogue. Like Kakashi saying that simply going to the Kamui dimension would be of no use if there's no dimension to return to. I'd assume that meant a couple of minutes at most.

Just gonna bring this up here again, literally going to the Kamui dimension does Team 7 no good since there will no dimension to return to. The fact that they can’t do that to even regroup or strategize gives me the feeling that the ETSB was going to do its thing in like a couple minutes.

 

[Samlex1234]

Just gonna bring this up here again, literally going to the Kamui dimension does Team 7 no good since there will no dimension to return to. The fact that they can’t do that to even regroup or strategize gives me the feeling that the ETSB was going to do its thing in like a couple minutes.

This is true it should not take up to a day going by this. And in the game which is the only complete feat we have it is in minutes. It literally dwarfEd the susanoo in miniutes

 

[ssgengar]

As of right now I can’t think of a way to come up with a timeframe, but you’re heavily downplaying its size by comparing it to a large mountain lol it completely dwarfed PS

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

comparing it to a large mountain

It was a visual spitball, my point was that it was extremely far from even the size of moons in the time it grew.

Just gonna bring this up here again, literally going to the Kamui dimension does Team 7 no good since there will no dimension to return to. The fact that they can’t do that to even regroup or strategize gives me the feeling that the ETSB was going to do its thing in like a couple minutes.

While that’s one way to look at it sure, another way to look at it is if they can’t beat Kaguya it won’t go away. So it doesn’t matter how long they strategize or plan if they can’t defeat her. But more importantly it’s expansion deals with its destruction, which is EE not AP. I’m talking about the creation that happens afterwards.

 

[RanaProGamer]

While that’s one way to look at it sure, another way to look at it is if they can’t beat Kaguya it won’t go away. So it doesn’t matter how long they strategize or plan if they can’t defeat her. But more importantly it’s expansion deals with its destruction, which is EE not AP. I’m talking about the creation that happens afterwards.

So what you're saying is that even if do assume that the destruction is at a couple of minutes best, it won't matter cuz it's EE. But since creation scales to AP but the timeframe is unknown, that is where the doubt is.

 

[KLOL506]

And isn’t she going to be creating 6 dimensions?

At once, or one by one? Are we dealing with just pocket dimensions or literal higher levels of existence?