Equal Stats Tournament V2: Kakyoin (JoJo) vs Vira Lillie Granblue Fantasy (Semi-Finals)

[DemonicDude]

Amps are allowed if a user have them.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Even if she could hit an Abstract, so can some Stands.

Abstracts aren't Stands, and Stands aren't (always, there is exceptions) Abstracts, they are two completely different forms of invulnerability/intangibility that do not scale between each other, saying ******* with one automatically means you could **** with the other is like saying punching a logia lets you punch a ghost and vice versa. They might both be forms of intangibility, but mechanically they aren't the same, end result being similar doesn't mean the mechanics of it are and thus ******* with one doesn't always scale between.

then for stands to be considered more intangible than abstract you need proof of it being able to become intangible even against abstract.
just because you're deeper than a ghost incorporeality doesn't instantly make you deeper than an abstract which has a different kind of incorporeality than souls does.

true they can hit stands but they have never shown being able to be intangible against abstract. so someone being able to attack an abstract can interact with them no problem
it would be NFL to assume being layered higher than a ghost makes you layered higher than an abstract when abstract functions differently they don't have energy or soul that makes up their incorporeality but rather concept, rumors or possibilities.

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

not to mention abstracts that are universal concepts. and abstract that has nonexistent physiology because they don't have a soul or a mind to be interacted with. which are the abstracts in granblue.

 

[Chariot190]

What's the range on the spike thing actually?

then for stands to be considered more intangible than abstract you need proof of it being able to become intangible even against abstract.

You don't seem to understand the fact it has nothing to do with being more intangible, but the fact they're completely different types of intangibility. You could punch a nonexistent concept in the face that has ten layers of intangibility, doesn't mean you could hit a logia.

just because you're deeper than a ghost incorporeality doesn't instantly make you deeper than an abstract which has a different kind of incorporeality than souls does.

You just proved my point, they're different, they are not the same, going "oh well they can hit abstracts so they can hit this!", is literally not how it works lad, if there is two different types of intangibility, that derive from two different facets and sources, hitting one doesn't mean you can hit the other, and no, being abstract doesn't automatically grant you better intangibility, for all intents and purposes they're equal, in that they're two completely different things. They both have a baseline, and in some cases one can be better than the other, and in others cases not.

true they can hit stands but they have never shown being able to be intangible against abstract. so someone being able to attack an abstract can interact with them no problem

Wonder of U is literally a Stand that exists and he's an abstract and Stands can **** with him just fine, hell he's the embodiment of "bad things" even, and there's also stand abilities that can **** with NEP shit, this isn't a contest and they can **** with him just fine. But this doesn't matter, why? Because you're conflating the two, being able to hit an abstract doesn't mean you could hit a ghost for example, and being able to hit a ghost doesn't mean you can hit an abstract, you're arguing "well she can hit an abstract so she can hit ghosts" is ******* stupid no offense, because they are NOT the same thing and you yourself has even SAID they aren't. Hitting an abstract is more impressive on paper, but it being more impressive doesn't mean it inherently allows you to **** with other forms of intangibility. Of course, she has fought and hit ghosts, so that's cool, but at the same time Stands have layered spiritual intangibility, harming a baseline ghost and harming a baseline abstract just means she can harm baseline ghosts and baseline abstracts, it doesn't mean she can harm like a spiritual entity with two dozen layers of spiritual intangibility because she hit an abstract one time. So no, she can't interact with no problem, you're unironically wanking an baseline intangibility to automatically supersede all others even if those others have been layered while said intangibility aren't at all the same thing.

it would be NFL to assume being layered higher than a ghost makes you layered higher than an abstract when abstract functions differently they don't have energy or soul that makes up their incorporeality but rather concept, rumors or possibilities.

Lad, it isn't me going into NLF here, I'm going with what they have shown, it's ironically you. You're assuming because she can hit a abstract, something that is mechanically completely different in the scope of how intangibility functions, means because she can automatically supersedes other types of intangibility no matter how layered it is because "she hit an abstract", when that isn't the case. She gets what she gets, nothing more, there is no imaginary "abstracts automatically supersede other forms of intangibility so if you harm them you can harm other types of intangibility even if layered", because that's utter bullshit and an ACTUAL NLF.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

You don't seem to understand the fact it has nothing to do with being more intangible, but the fact they're completely different types of intangibility. You could punch a nonexistent concept in the face that has ten layers of intangibility, doesn't mean you could hit a logia.

yes you can

You just proved my point, they're different, they are not the same, going "oh well they can hit abstracts so they can hit this!", is literally not how it works lad, if there is two different types of intangibility, that derive from two different facets and sources, hitting one doesn't mean you can hit the other, and no, being abstract doesn't automatically grant you better intangibility, for all intents and purposes they're equal, in that they're two completely different things. They both have a baseline, and in some cases one can be better than the other, and in others cases not.

yes and being able to hit something that exists deeper than a lower one qualifies for it. since when did intangibility was decided to have a layer?

Wonder of U is literally a Stand that exists and he's an abstract and Stands can **** with him just fine, hell he's the embodiment of "bad things" even, and there's also stand abilities that can **** with NEP shit, this isn't a contest and they can **** with him just fine. But this doesn't matter, why? Because you're conflating the two, being able to hit an abstract doesn't mean you could hit a ghost for example, and being able to hit a ghost doesn't mean you can hit an abstract, you're arguing "well she can hit an abstract so she can hit ghosts" is ******* stupid no offense, because they are NOT the same thing and you yourself has even SAID they aren't. Hitting an abstract is more impressive on paper, but it being more impressive doesn't mean it inherently allows you to **** with other forms of intangibility. Of course, she has fought and hit ghosts, so that's cool, but at the same time Stands have layered spiritual intangibility, harming a baseline ghost and harming a baseline abstract just means she can harm baseline ghosts and baseline abstracts, it doesn't mean she can harm like a spiritual entity with two dozen layers of spiritual intangibility because she hit an abstract one time. So no, she can't interact with no problem, you're unironically wanking an baseline intangibility to automatically supersede all others even if those others have been layered while said intangibility aren't at all the same thing.

too many words. I didn't say anything about it being impressive because they are not impressive but they exist deeper than conventional incorporeality makes them encompass those that are shallower than their own nonexistence.
So a ghost with 1000 layers of intangibility can survive an attack targeting the concept of all ghosts being removed completely despite the abstract and universal concept that allows them to exist? ngl you fuel your statements with too much word

Lad, it isn't me going into NLF here, I'm going with what they have shown, it's ironically you. You're assuming because she can hit a abstract, something that is mechanically completely different in the scope of how intangibility functions, means because she can automatically supersedes other types of intangibility no matter how layered it is because "she hit an abstract", when that isn't the case. She gets what she gets, nothing more, there is no imaginary "abstracts automatically supersede other forms of intangibility so if you harm them you can harm other types of intangibility even if layered", because that's utter bullshit and an ACTUAL NLF.

I'm assuming it from my own logical standpoint if you find mine not logical then back it up with your own counterpoints. on why do you believe it's safe to assume someone who can hit nature 1 and 2 NEP cannot hit a spirit who somehow is more intangible than a ghost. because unless its nep nature 2. it will still be between the duality of existence and nonexistence.

I'm going to reply to follow-ups after I sleep

What's the range on the spike thing actually?

Since she can also perform it against primal beasts who are large size type 2. assume at tens to hundreds of meters at least. and she can also trap things before executing it

 

[Chariot190]

yes you can

Except you can't, that's a false equivalence, NLF, and blatant wanking, cut it the **** out.

yes and being able to hit something that exists deeper than a lower one qualifies for it. since when did intangibility was decided to have a layer?

Except there's the issue, Abstract isn't "A deeper one", it's a DIFFERENT one, being able to hit an Abstract doesn't mean you can hit a ghost, hitting a ghost doesn't mean you can hit an abstract, hitting a logia doesn't mean you can hit a ghost, hitting a ghost doesn't mean you can hit a logia, etc, they are two completely different things. Being able to hit a ghost with ten layers of spiritual intangibility doesn't mean you can hit a baseline abstract, and hitting a abstract with a million layers doesn't mean you can even hit a baseline ghost. You are taking two completely different things, conflating them, and saying one is always better than the other and automatically enables you to do this other thing, tough luck, doesn't work that way.
Since forever ago? Hell why the **** do you think people in this very thread is saying Stands have layered intangibility? Just like every other ability, things can have layers. We layer everything just about, from mind hax, to intangibility, to even bio manip.

too many words.

Not an argument, perhaps I'm only trying to convey this as simple as possible, if you fail to understand even after that, that's on you.

I didn't say anything about it being impressive because they are not impressive but they exist deeper than conventional incorporeality makes them encompass those that are shallower than their own nonexistence.

Unfortunately, that isn't how it works here, you need feats to do things, and you going "well it exists deeper so it must allow interaction with ANYTHING below it" doesn't work, because it isn't below, it's simply not the same thing. How hard is this to comprehend? They have have intangibility, they're both noncorporal, but the mechanics and type of noncorporality are different, having feats against one doesn't automatically translate to another, just because the end result is intangibility doesn't mean you can now interact with all forms of intangibility, like do you thinking punching intangible energy would allow you to physically interact with shadows? Not really, and no, touching abstracts isn't a free pass to interact with any type of NPI, especially when they're above baseline.

So a ghost with 1000 layers of intangibility can survive an attack targeting the concept of all ghosts being removed completely despite the abstract and universal concept that allows them to exist? ngl you fuel your statements with too much word

Could it survive it? No, if it got hit by it it would be super ****** unless it had feats or resistances.
But if said attack can't even touch it, that's a different thing entirely, it wouldn't be surviving it, it'd just be avoiding it, and to much words? To bad, cry over it I guess, I'm explaining things in as much detail as I possibly can, I'm not arguing, I'm telling you. Being able to interact with an Abstract doesn't mean you can automatically interact with all other types of intangibility, especially if it's layered, doubly so if the Abstract NPI is baseline itself.

Like for a more personal example, I'm not going to say Spin or various Stands can interact with intangibility that has a billions layers just because it can interact with NEP, Abstracts, Logia AND spiritual intangibility, because that isn't how it works, you go by feats, if they have it they have it, if they don't, they don't. If Vira lacks feats that indicates she can interact with layered intangibility of a type separate from what she does have feats for, it means she doesn't have the feats.

I'm assuming it from my own logical standpoint if you find mine not logical then back it up with your own counterpoints. on why do you believe it's safe to assume someone who can hit nature 1 and 2 NEP cannot hit a spirit who somehow is more intangible than a ghost.

I quite frankly don't care about your "logical standpoint", I'm telling you how things work. My counterpoint is "hey they aren't actually at all the same thing so stop acting like it is".
Easy, I assume what she has feats for. Can she hit an abstract? Ok, she can hit abstracts.
Can she hit ghosts? Ok she can hit ghosts.
Can she hit this other shit? Ok she can?
Can she hit this? No? Oh, well I guess she can't.

Nothing more, nothing less, unless she has a statement or scales to some who can, I'm unfortunately going to have to call you on that shit, that's an actual NLF. Even doing 99% of things still means there's that 1%. If she has no feats to **** with layered intangibility of any kind, then so be it, she doesn't.

Any fyi, this isn't even just intangibility, this goes for all abilities, for example, you resist mindhax, but what type, for is it done, what's the mechanics? If you resist mindhax from say Mewtwo or Xavier, that doesn't help against Mind hax from say DIO or Ragyo who use biological methods and effect the brain physically opposed to the former who use psychic abilities to do so, but the inverse is also true, resisting the latter mind hax won't help against psychic assaults. There are types of abilities, the same ability can have different mechanics and shit behind it, effecting one thing, resisting one thing, etc, just because they're both labeled the same ability, doesn't mean inherently they work the same. This applies to effectively everything.

because unless its nep nature 2. it will still be between the duality of existence and nonexistence.

She can't **** with that either unless she has feats, some for any other type.

I'm going to reply to follow-ups after I sleep

Don't bother, if your whole argument is "She can do A, so that must mean she can do B", that's not really an argument and more just insinuating something for the sake of it.

 

[Naito-desu]

NEP Interaction has changed in terms of aspects, so it's possible now to be able to interact with one intangible thing and be unable to interact with another. Chariot's point is valid here imo

 

[Chariot190]

Not that this even matters, it isn't like she can't hit Kakyoin, given he's a pretty clear target with zero intangibility or abilities of his own. And even if she could hit HG she can't see him (layered invisibility) so either way.

 

[Popted2]

Kakyoin FRA

 

[DemonicDude]

Kak FRA

 

[Chariot190]

Did anyone even vote for Kak tho, I was just arguing his intangibility.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Im Voting for her on bypassing his stand entirely and using spikes still the same

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

In further tournaments, can we remove the no hitting and no seeing stands? as it makes them extremely OP in these match ups

 

[DemonicDude]

Probably I just happen to stay true to the characters but we'll see.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

If not, I may try and run one of my own, and do some unique things of my own though, since these are fun

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

that intangibility discussion is too big of a can of worms for a simple equal stats tournament so I'll just drop being able to touch his stand then. and I will just ask questions regarding changes in intangibility and how/why intangibility is layered now some other time.

then Vira can basically spam abilities that spawn on and in kakyoin which she can see. not to mention her Affection abyss can also lock her enemy in place by trapping them in a white field. as Vin noticed.

Empathics manip is out of the question because she will not use it anyway while merged. unless she is forced out of her merged when damaged enough then she might use it
but other wincons would be speed amping herself for a short burst. not to mention her affection abyss has higher potency. though she would need time to accumulate energy by fighting to release it as a whole

In further tournaments, can we remove the no hitting and no seeing stands? as it makes them extremely OP in these match ups

I think it's fine for stands to be like that. its still ability after all but yeah I do I agree its a bit OP.

 

[DemonicDude]

The other tourney has been so fire I almost forgot this one existed

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

The other tourney has been so fire I almost forgot this one existed

link me mf lol

 

[DemonicDude]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-high-8-c-survival-of-the-fittest-tournament-2022.133703/

 

[AceOfSpaces3709]

Cherry Licker FRA

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

tbh, I feel like most people aren't even listening to her argument...

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

voting vira bypassing the stand with spawning swords on him if she can't really figure out our sense HG. or empathic manip if she got forced out of her merge with enough damage

 

[DemonicDude]

What's the conclusion here ?

 

[Nierre]

kak fra

 

[DemonicDude]

Grace, Kakyoin moves on to the finale his opponent will be one of these two