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End of season I Equal Stats: Luffy vs Goku vs Ichigo vs Naruto
- Thread starter SirAlex09
- Start date
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goku most definitely grows the quickest the TOP damn near put this on crack
Can luffy/naruto even sense goku because he had god ki? and it makes those "below him" unable to sense him
What exactly from naruto is restricted? Can he go in his avatar or atleast chakra arms? If its just BASE naruto he dosent have most of his senses iirc
Outside of arguing ichigo ignores dura with his zankpaktou I dont think he can any wins cons. Getsuga is easily countered and his 3 foes has some type of precog/analytical prediction or danger awareness
Can luffy/naruto even sense goku because he had god ki? and it makes those "below him" unable to sense him
What exactly from naruto is restricted? Can he go in his avatar or atleast chakra arms? If its just BASE naruto he dosent have most of his senses iirc
Outside of arguing ichigo ignores dura with his zankpaktou I dont think he can any wins cons. Getsuga is easily countered and his 3 foes has some type of precog/analytical prediction or danger awareness
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2- everyone here can dodge ichigo, naruto can use clones and senses, luffy can predict it, goku can predict, use clones or just IT out if it.
1- no not really, no one here can sense him since he has god ki, even people with ki sensing can't sense him. But he can sensie everyone, their location, thier power level, if they are serious or not, he can use it to IT + hakai most of them.
2- everyone here can dodge ichigo, naruto can use clones and senses, luffy can predict it, goku can predict, use clones or just IT out if it.
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Just gonna point out that Ichigo resists the God Bind (breaks out of Kido, scales above people who break out of Kido, resists RC which inflicts paralysis amongst other effects) and has reacted to teleportation before so Goku doesn’t really have anything that will work on him (disclaimer that I don’t know DB so feel free to correct me).
He is also able to sense Transcendent beings while not being Transcendent himself at the time so he would still be able to sense Goku even with God Ki. As for everyone’s extra sensory stuff, besides Luffy’s literal future sight, Ichigo bypasses their stuff with Sonído. Since this paragraph seems to have become sensory stuff, Ichigo’s presence messes with people’s ESP.
I do agree that he will have a harder time hitting people compared to the others but seeing as the whole battlefield will look like a Gundam fight from all the energy beams/slashes/spheres being launched around, he doesn’t really have to land hits, just outlast.
On the training stuff, are we giving Goku and Ichigo access to HBTC and Dangai training for the five days? Cuz that’s gonna give em a huge leg up on the other two.
He is also able to sense Transcendent beings while not being Transcendent himself at the time so he would still be able to sense Goku even with God Ki. As for everyone’s extra sensory stuff, besides Luffy’s literal future sight, Ichigo bypasses their stuff with Sonído. Since this paragraph seems to have become sensory stuff, Ichigo’s presence messes with people’s ESP.
I do agree that he will have a harder time hitting people compared to the others but seeing as the whole battlefield will look like a Gundam fight from all the energy beams/slashes/spheres being launched around, he doesn’t really have to land hits, just outlast.
On the training stuff, are we giving Goku and Ichigo access to HBTC and Dangai training for the five days? Cuz that’s gonna give em a huge leg up on the other two.
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Doesn’t Ichigo have like the best endurance here?
He should still have his regeneration and probably even can still be resurrected by Zangetsu.
He should still have his regeneration and probably even can still be resurrected by Zangetsu.
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I'm voting Goku for reason above. Or are we doing the vote somebody out first thing?
SirAlex09
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- Thread starter
- #169
Guys keep in mind the others can make use of prep time as well.
1) Luffy can improve his future sight and Ryou even further theoretically. That's how his observation haki evolved into future sight in the first place
2) Naruto can collect natural energy to amp himself since Stats are only equalised at the beginning
3) And most of Goku 's growth was due to multipliers ( Kaioken times 10) being involved which won't give any boosts here. So the jump won't be as high
4) Ichigo could go to Ichibe to train or to Urahara. His growth wasn't bad either.
Hyperbolic time chamber , Dangai and the place where Goku and Vegeta gained SSJB are banned. If not , he stomps them too hard. Gravity chamber however is enabled. And getting Whis or Vegeta to train with him is also fine.
1) Luffy can improve his future sight and Ryou even further theoretically. That's how his observation haki evolved into future sight in the first place
2) Naruto can collect natural energy to amp himself since Stats are only equalised at the beginning
3) And most of Goku 's growth was due to multipliers ( Kaioken times 10) being involved which won't give any boosts here. So the jump won't be as high
4) Ichigo could go to Ichibe to train or to Urahara. His growth wasn't bad either.
Hyperbolic time chamber , Dangai and the place where Goku and Vegeta gained SSJB are banned. If not , he stomps them too hard. Gravity chamber however is enabled. And getting Whis or Vegeta to train with him is also fine.
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If it just effects esp then Narutos emotion detection and analytical prediction should still be in play. Whats the reason it sonido bypasses things again?
The transcendent point seems valid idk about the god bind stuff
@Sigurd Best Isn't his regen only in hollow form? As for him coming back to life idk how functions in death battles Unless its a technique like izanagi or directly tied to their regen like cell. As for stamina If the dangai feat is what makes him the best dosen't gokus HBTC feats surpass that since 1 year>2months
@Alex his observation evolved through combat remember rayleigh said haki blooms in the heat of battle
Loyd
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hes allowed to do that? royal palace + dangai training lets go
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Honestly I feel like Goku lifting strength is being downplayed but I can't contest it so I'll accept. Also if your talking about Aiden teleportation it's seems way slower than IT activation and succession and also he only reacted to it once cause Aizen only used it once (could be wrong though) and if their is someone in the 1000 year old arc you teleports and Ichigo reacted to them I'd love to here it
I'm actually gonna give this one to you
I don't think it works like that. The pesquisa ( might have butchered that ) acts more of a alarm/spider sense than precognition and he only bypass it because he was a hollow at the time and the pesquisa isn't meant to detect hollows. So it seems like a very specific bypass.
Nope. Aizen and even Ichigo school friend could sense Ichigo presence. They just couldn't sense any power from him cause he discarded it, just doesn't screw esp though, just makes a little twist.
He quite literally has less stamina than anybody else, he ain't outlasting
HBTC is Gravity Room on every enhancement drug you can think of... Goku would speed blitz one shot given the accelerating rate he can develop far exceeds Ichigo
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Is Naruto really can’t sense Goku? Considering he can sense Madara limbo that exists in another dimension
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His Regen means nothing to Naruto with EE and Goku who can kill beings with even higher regen
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He could also sense Sasuke across dimensions but that only comes out to cosmic awareness
Dbz Characters can sense others across planets, dimensions and planes of existence but God ki negs that level of sensing so no
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I see
Loyd
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Tatsuki (may have butchered that) said she couldn't feel anything from ichigo, meaning she could sense him but not anything from him
You do know that was when he was using mugetsu right. And even then it would only mean they both could sense each other. Ichigo would still need to deal with Goku's higher stats via prep training, acrobatics and agility, analytical prediction, energy absorption and Nullification, IT and UI dodging
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Goku can still train in Gravity Chamber, King Kai's world or Phantasm Forest
Either way
Any training Goku does will always give him the stat advantage against the others given his rate of growth
Loyd
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Ichigo jumped into thr view...
your misunderstanding how bleach sensing works.
ichigo doesnt accept or deny it he simply states hes power is greater
goes mugetsu in which aizen states again he doesnt feel anything from ichigo denoting hes still transcendent over him
doesnt even make sense to give up all your reiatsu for more ap but going mugetsu he has it back but is transcended again
if he stood still behind her she would not detect or sense him what so ever.
your misunderstanding how bleach sensing works.
how do you reach that conclusion? from "she couldn't feel anything from ichigo"
soon as he lost the upperhand that was Aizen's reasoning for the gap in power
ichigo doesnt accept or deny it he simply states hes power is greater
goes mugetsu in which aizen states again he doesnt feel anything from ichigo denoting hes still transcendent over him
doesnt even make sense to give up all your reiatsu for more ap but going mugetsu he has it back but is transcended again
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At best id say his danger awareness still goes off but even then idk
@SS3 I agree gokus lifting is being downplayed here Didn't he catch a whole island from frieza then he has those crazy whis training feats, If ichigo only negged ESP because of the being unable to detect hollows point then It shouldn't interfere with naruto/luffy/gokus sensing. Also while both teleportation gokus seems faster then aizen because iirc aizen has to dematareilize atleast the anime made it seem thhat way
If all those training places are banned goku still has KK planet and gravity chambers
the transcendent stuff is weird because in the war people were able to sense aizen and ichigo?
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Won’t lie, I somehow forgot about the negative emotions thing from Kurama. That should still work fine.
Ulq’s Pesquisa couldn’t sense Zangetsu’s movement and he specifically attributes the bypassing of his senses to Sonído. I think there might have been something else in CFYOW but don’t quote me on that.
The God Bind seems to paralyse the target like in the Broly movie (I assume that’s God Bind anyway)which is extremely similar in effect to Bakudo 1 which BoS Human Ichigo broke out of after a few seconds.
I know this was at Sigurd but Zangetsu takes over his body when he dies, healing and resurrecting Ichigo when he loses control of the body.
Since it’s stats equal, Ichigo and Goku’s LS would be equal and Ichigo managed to break out of something similar from Rukia when he was considerably weaker than her.
It’s not so much the activation that I care about (the activation is pretty fast when Aizen blinks away after Ichigo one shot his Kido) but after it as Aizen ports right next to Ichigo and Ichigo still slaps away his attack from behind no diff despite reacting after the teleport had finished.
Pesquisa is used by Arrancar for all of their spiritual sensing stuff like when Grimmjow invaded Karakura, it being pointed out that Yammy sucks at Pesquisa and thus failing to take Ichigo seriously, Nnoitra using Pesquisa to see how strong Kenny was etc. I don’t recall where it says that Pesquisa just doesn’t work on Hollows. Anyway, the point is that Sonído lets the user bypass the senses of others and thus would work here. Obviously guys like Luffy who see the future and Naruto sensing emotions would still be usable as Sonído has no feats against those.
They could sense him with their five main senses but they couldn’t sense his reiatsu at all because he was transcendent at the time. What I was talking about was at the start of the series when Ichigo’s presence screwed with Rukia’s reikaku (which could sense Renji across Seireitei at her absolute weakest) and let Fishbone rock up to his house with her being none the wiser until it smashed a hole through the wall.
Uhhh …… less stamina how? Ichigo without even fully exhausting himself can go for 3 months straight at full force against someone far stronger than him. I know Naruto goes crazy during the War but what does Luffy and Goku have that put them above Ichigo? I know OP has fights go for days to over a week but those are not close to Ichigo’s and as far as I am aware, Luffy doesn’t actually scale to the better ones (don’t know OP so feel free to correct me).He quite literally has less stamina than anybody else, he ain't outlasting
Wasn’t saying Ichigo would grow faster, I was saying that Goku and Ichigo would have an enormous stat advantage over Naruto and Luffy if they had access to those.
Not to anyone in particular but for the levels of Bleach sensing
- Base Aizen could sense Urahara wearing a Reiatsu concealing cloak so at his weakest he could already sense people that couldn’t be sensed. (2 levels of energy sensing)
- Aizen then becomes multiple levels of transcendent
- He still can’t sense Dangai Ichigo who goes Mugetsu and becomes even more unsensable (not a word but Imma still use it).
- And then Ichigo’s own energy (which Rukia didn’t even realise belonged to Ichigo) messes with the senses of people stronger than him and can actually sense him. Basically Ichigo is at least 5 layers of not being sensed with energy sensing (7 with a high ball), and can sense people 3 layers into resisting said stuff.
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Not sure if God Ki negs Naruto ability to sense goku emotions but then again goku won't harbor any negative emotions in fight anyways so...
I just remembered that If all of them have equal stats, and goku trains his butt off during the prep time he would have the lifting strength advantage as well so it should make Telekenesis viable. Also Ichigo broke out of the LITERALLY THE MOST BASIC AND WEAKEST OF BAKUDO. Against higher levels of Bakudo Ichigo has been subdued on multiple occasions
Point Taken
Not really sure what to say. The whole pesquisa thing just seems too verse specific but I guess it's viable
Point Taken, but honestly Ichigo viability is so useless here that his endurance, intelligence and stamina might just be his only way to win.
Probably not Luffy. Knowing him he'd spend the prep time training himself just as hard if not even harder
Good argument but Ichigo despite all you say his still mortal and has no divine inclinations and premise of God ki is that those with it can't be sensed by mortals or at least those without divine ki
Ichigo multiple levels of transcending is only him transcending/evolving pass the limitations of soul reapers and hollows not transcending into something divine or extra dimensional. The fact ichigo can't be sensed is simply because his presence surpasses their level of awareness as aizen explained. But Ichigo is still ultimately mortal with no divine powers so wether he could sense goku or not becomes really iffy
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didn't he only take over and revive him because those 2 who still fighting to see whos on top of the horse. I remember he specifically said if you die I will take over but since they are cool now (or not beefing) Idk if he can still do that. Similar to how kurama dosen't just take over narutos body anymore
So none of narutos senses would work on goku besides maybe danger sense and for luffy future sight?
was ichigo able to be sensed during the war? I know yhwach was an he should be> the aizen and ichigo that couldn't be sensed
As for stamina im still going goku due to his time chamber feats however naruto can always send a clone off to refuel his chakra or have kurama charge some for him.
So none of narutos senses would work on goku besides maybe danger sense and for luffy future sight?
was ichigo able to be sensed during the war? I know yhwach was an he should be> the aizen and ichigo that couldn't be sensed
As for stamina im still going goku due to his time chamber feats however naruto can always send a clone off to refuel his chakra or have kurama charge some for him.
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Pretty sure everyone who has that level of sensing can sense god ki, as everyone who has dimensional sensing is a kai.
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Yeah your right
Kai's would be able to sense god ki because they're gods
And they have cosmic awareness levels of sensing
I was refering to mortal characters like piccolo
He could sense the battle goku and buu and even when goku's power increased or decreased
And they were fighting in the world of the kai's which is outside of the macrocosm
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Doesn’t Piccolo have god level sensing because of Kami fusion? Which is why he was the only one scared shitless of Shin at the latter’s introduction?
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Kami ain't no supreme diety nor does he have god ki and neither does piccolo
Piccolo's ESP is just that good as a namekian and even then he couldn't sense beerus right before him
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,162
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- Thread starter
- #191
You don't need God ki though to sense God ki.
Hit could sense Goku getting stronger and so could Frieza. During ToP Tien, Piccolo and Krillin could sense Goku in UI Sign as well.
But the Anime probably forgot that Piccolo can sense God ki when they introduced Beerus
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I'll let Trunks answer what you just said at 0:45
Most Likely that was the xcase for everyone else as well
Can't sense his energy but feel it's pressure in the air and can tell when the pressure is getting stronger
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Well in that case Hit is the unique/special/only exception
Maybe in all those 1000 years he's lived he picked up on how to sense god ki
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araki forgot.
wait...
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Well piccolo, gohan, have universal range in sensing [hope I am not wrong] yet couldn't sense goku whole he is infront of him, and in UI he doesn't let his emotions hinder him, he doesn't think at all [UI sign that is, it's different in MUI] also, UI sign gives him accelerated development, goku can train for 150 days with no rest, no sleepbor eating [I know he has only 5 days] goku can just turn UI and start training, which would just put everyone at a disadvantage. His power nulling works by suppressing others energy blasts, he can use deconstruction and EE [works on body and soul, reading you to the point you won't go to the after life]. Plus he can just point at you and use deconstruction, or IT and use it. He can also use after image technique [it worked on people that are faster than him, worked on cell who has goku's cells and more, it would catch them off gaurd]
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Weakest Bakudo doesn’t mean anything when it basically does the same thing as God Bind, was broken out of by human Ichigo, and it was cast by Rukia who was far and away stronger than Ichigo at the time. Ichigo getting subdued by stronger Kido also never happens.
- Against Tessai, Kin and Bankin failed epically the moment Ichigo was no longer just a fodder soul
- Hachi dropped Gochutekkan on an unconscious Ichigo and once he woke up, he broke out immediately.
Not really imo. I can sort of see where you are coming from but nothing actually says Pesquisa fails against Hollows and verse equal means the powers will work like how they are supposed to in the OG setting.
Wasn’t claiming he was a Swiss Army knife or smth lol. Just saw someone say he had less stamina and was like …. “holdup”.
With the context of HBTC and Dangai training, Luffy will be hard pressed to even come close to the amount of training Goku and Ichigo can get in since the latter got 2.5 to 3 months out of roughly an hour. 5 days would be 300+ months of training.
Ichigo is multiple times transcendent, is basically the same thing as the Soul King who is most certainly divine enough seeing as Yhwach (who is a demigod in comparison to SK) could give Lille a Schrift that was enough to qualify him and his powers as divine as explained in the Nanao fight. Ichigo also possesses Fullbring which is a piece of the Soul King, has Quincy blood (the power of Yhwach who is considered divine himself), is a death god (sounds pretty divine) etc.
And how is God Ki any different? We know people can sense it so why is that also not simply because it is “beyond their level of awareness”? SirAlex even brought up how Hit could sense Goku despite God Ki which only further supports my stance. As for Ichigo not being divine, see above.
Ichigo: A person who evolved from primates, can wield a supernatural energy and also has powers gained from extremely powerful beings that are seen as and called gods whom he eventually surpasses
Goku: A person who evolved from primates, can wield a supernatural energy and also has powers gained from extremely powerful beings that are seen as and called gods whom he eventually surpasses.
Looks pretty similar to me.
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Did Goku not absorb some of Beerus’ Ki or something?
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