Elden Ring's Top Tier should be straight High 4-C and not just "possibly".

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

This blog (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Emirp_sumitpo/Elden_Ring_Large_Star_level_explanation) proves that Radahn also stopped the movement of actual stars, not just meteorites. There are blatant statements in this blog that talk about "constellations", which is a term we use to talk about stars, and the illustrations on the Preceptor's blue outfit represent suns, and the description says that the outfit also represents their movements and that they have been stopped (Everything I say is in the blog).

Some people may try to contradict this by saying that the stars in ER are just alien creatures like the Astel, and therefore we cannot give this feat a Tier 4, but that is completely false and a misunderstanding of the lore:

To begin with, the Astel are evolved forms of the Fallingstar Beast, and we call them "stars"/"fallingstars" because they come from space, they are directly born from meteorites:
"Katana forged from meteoric ore to dispatch lifeforms born of falling stars."

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Meteoric+Ore+Blade

Also the simple fact that Astel is called "malformed star" proves that it is not a normal star, so saying that all the stars in ER are like Astel is also wrong. He is even explicitly described as a "falling star":

"A malformed star born in the flightless void far away. Once destroyed an Eternal City and took away their sky. A falling star of ill omen."

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Remembrance of the Naturalborn Consumable Guide: Where to find Remembrance of the Naturalborn in Elden Ring, Uses, Map, Farming, Crafting, Tips and Tricks.

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Is Astel is called a "malformed star" because, well, it's a creepy creature that comes from space, it's an evolved form of a fallingstar beast that was born from a meteorite. That's it.

IRL we also call meteorites shooting/falling stars, but does that mean that the stars in our universe are all meteorites? Of course not.

So there should not be "Mountain level, possibly/likely Large Star Level" in the profiles, but just a straight Large Star level.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

From the last thread the main issue is that the cosmology of Elden Ring is notably different from ours, especially when considering the Microcosm stuff. Which is why Bambu and others weren't for a straight High 4-C rating.

While I'm not against it in principal, technically speaking nothing you provided concretely proves that the constellations are Gas Stars rather than demoic astral creatures.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

From the last thread the main issue is that the cosmology of Elden Ring is notably different from ours, especially when considering the Microcosm stuff.

What does the Microcosm have to do with it?

While I'm not against it in principal, technically speaking nothing you provided concretely proves that the constellations are Gas Stars rather than demoic astral creatures.

The glintstones come from stars, so the latter are not stellar creatures, and as I explain in my post, Astel is described as a "malformed star", so it is not a normal star, and a "falling star ", so it's a meteorite. Saying that stars in ER are creatures is like saying that irl stars are meteorites.

Falling stars beasts/astels are called "stars" because they come from space, they are born from meteorites, that's it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What does the Microcosm have to do with it?

That the entire space of The Lands Between is a small bubble and we see another said bubble in Ranni's ending. So we have no idea how large the total volume of the cosmology is.

The glintstones come from stars, so the latter are not stellar creatures, and as I explain in my post,

They come from stars, but that doesn't mean those stars are giant balls of gas. School of Graven Mage for example are sorcerers who try to become stars and end up as a ball, which means a success story would just be a ball but in outer space.

Falling stars beasts/astels are called "stars" because they come from space, they are born from meteorites, that's it.

I mean, they're just a lot of stuff weighing it down

It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring.

One of the glintstone sorceries that manipulates gravitational forces. Fires a gravitational projectile that pulls in enemies before finally exploding. Charging increases potency. Said to have originated in the lightless dark far beyond—the home of the fallingstar beasts.

A malformed star born in the flightless void far away. Once destroyed an Eternal City and took away their sky. An falling star of ill omen.

But the most important anti-feat would be the Starscourge Heriloom

The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone—and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars.

Where it states explicitly that Radahn confronted "The Fallingstars" rather than just "The Stars"

 

[Chritin]

This blog (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Emirp_sumitpo/Elden_Ring_Large_Star_level_explanation) proves that Radahn also stopped the movement of actual stars, not just meteorites. There are blatant statements in this blog that talk about "constellations", which is a term we use to talk about stars, and the illustrations on the Preceptor's blue outfit represent suns, and the description says that the outfit also represents their movements and that they have been stopped (Everything I say is in the blog).

Some people may try to contradict this by saying that the stars in ER are just alien creatures like the Astel, and therefore we cannot give this feat a Tier 4, but that is completely false and a misunderstanding of the lore:

To begin with, the Astel are evolved forms of the Fallingstar Beast, and we call them "stars"/"fallingstars" because they come from space, they are directly born from meteorites:
"Katana forged from meteoric ore to dispatch lifeforms born of falling stars."

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Meteoric+Ore+Blade

Also the simple fact that Astel is called "malformed star" proves that it is not a normal star, so saying that all the stars in ER are like Astel is also wrong. He is even explicitly described as a "falling star":

"A malformed star born in the flightless void far away. Once destroyed an Eternal City and took away their sky. A falling star of ill omen."

Remembrance of the Naturalborn | Elden Ring Wiki

Remembrance of the Naturalborn Consumable Guide: Where to find Remembrance of the Naturalborn in Elden Ring, Uses, Map, Farming, Crafting, Tips and Tricks.

eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com

Is Astel is called a "malformed star" because, well, it's a creepy creature that comes from space, it's an evolved form of a fallingstar beast that was born from a meteorite. That's it.

IRL we also call meteorites shooting/falling stars, but does that mean that the stars in our universe are all meteorites? Of course not.

So there should not be "Mountain level, possibly/likely Large Star Level" in the profiles, but just a straight Large Star level.

While I basically fully agree with everything here and believe that Elden Ring characters should be straight up High 4-C, I do also understand many peoples concerns over putting them as much. However, I think I good compromise would be changing “possibly” to “likely”, since there is a lot of credence to the fact there are actual stars in the Elden Ring cosmology.

 

[Qawsedf234]

However, I think I good compromise would be changing “possibly” to “likely”,

I think that's fine

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

That

I think you overthinking it The microcosm that we see on the Great Beyond Staff and with the Fleeting Microcosm incantation is just a representation of the observable universe, not the universe into a bubble

They come from stars, but that doesn't mean those stars are giant balls of gas

That means they are giant balls of magic instead of gas

I mean, they're just a lot of stuff weighing it down

Wdym?

Where it states explicitly that Radahn confronted "The Fallingstars" rather than just "The Stars"

Yes, but Iji, Sellen and the Preceptor Set confirm that the feat also concerns actual stars. So Radahn stopped meteorites and stars

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

While I basically fully agree with everything here and believe that Elden Ring characters should be straight up High 4-C, I do also understand many peoples concerns over putting them as much. However, I think I good compromise would be changing “possibly” to “likely”, since there is a lot of credence to the fact there are actual stars in the Elden Ring cosmology.

Yeah it's fine

 

[Planck69]

To me at least, it seems clear that the term "star" isn't a one-size fits all and can mean both regular stars or meteors/cosmic creatures depending on use. In the context of Radhan's feat, the "constellations" being anything else would take proof of such a thing rather than otherwise, since it comes of the same as hearing the term "shooting star" in real life and extrapolating all stars as like that when there's constant stellar iconography associated with them. Same with the term "microcosm", fundamentally it's a representation of our cosmos and the rupture that created all beings that Ymir talks about is very likely the Big Bang.

I'm alright with a full rating. Failing that, a "likely".

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think you overthinking it The microcosm that we see on the Great Beyond Staff and with the Fleeting Microcosm incantation is just a representation of the observable universe, not the universe into a bubble

A microcosm is a smaller representation of something greater. It can't be showing the observable universe unless they're embedded within an even larger universe.

Yes, but Iji, Sellen and the Preceptor Set confirm that the feat also concerns actual stars

They said he crushed the stars and stopped fate. But the Heirloom clarified that he fought Fallingstars. Astel is a Fallingstar of ill omen or bad fate. So fate being dictated by astral beings has precedence in my view.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

They said he crushed the stars and stopped fate. But the Heirloom clarified that he fought Fallingstars.

Sellen and Iji use the word "constellation", and the Preceptor Set has illustrations of suns. This proves that actual stars were also involved in Radahn's feat, not just meteorites.

Astel is a Fallingstar of ill omen or bad fate. So fate being dictated by astral beings has precedence in my view.

This is just your interpretation, "ill omen" can also refer to the fact that Astel destroyed an Eternal City and is therefore an "ill omen" to the inhabitants of that city, not that Astel literally controls fate like the stars. And even if it is the case, that the fallingstar beasts/astel also affects fate, how would that contradict the fact that actual stars exist in ER and that they are also involved in Radahn's feat? One does not contradict the other

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sellen and Iji use the word "constellation",

Which can mean a collection of astral being in this cosmology, rather than a group of stars. The fact that once Radahn's grip on the stars end, they instantly launch forward means they could be far closer than an actual star.

the Preceptor Set has illustrations of suns.

The set has illustrations of the movement of stars. But that again doesn't make them 4-C going by the previous threads.

And even if it is the case, that the fallingstar beasts/astel also affects fate, how would that contradict the fact that actual stars exist in ER and that they are also involved in Radahn's feat?

It wouldn't necessarily, but that's why they have a split rating in the first place. Because it was argued it could be interpreted one of two ways and both were valid.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Which can mean a collection of astral being in this cosmology, rather than a group of stars.

Again, fallinstar beasts/astels are born from meteorites, and meteorites do not form constellations, stars do.
Purple glintstones and gravitational magic come from meteorites (this is why the Fallingstars beast/astel and the Alabaster/Onyx Lord practice gravity magic, they were born from meteorites), and green/blue glintstones and Raya Lucaria magic come from stars, which are giant balls of magic.

The fact that once Radahn's grip on the stars end, they instantly launch forward means they could be far closer than an actual star.

What we see in the cutscene after the Radahn boss fight are shooting stars, aka meteorites. We see one literally fall into the Lands Between, Blaidd even calls it "falling star". But the fact that Radahn stopped the movement of meteorites does not contradict the other fact, that he also stopped that of literal stars.

The set has illustrations of the movement of stars. But that again doesn't make them 4-C going by the previous threads.

The stars illustrated on the set are suns, they are balls with branches, as the sun is often represented.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Again, fallinstar beasts/astels are born from meteorites, and meteorites do not form constellations, stars do.

In the real world sure, but not in Elden Ring. The fact that reality itself is a Microcosom is itself evidence that they're not similar.

green/blue glintstones and Raya Lucaria magic come from stars, which are giant balls of magic.

All magic comes from the study of stars. Even Glintstone, which features a spell that just summons stars to air strike people

The eldest primeval sorcery, said to have been discovered by an
ancient astrologer. A sorcery of legendary status.

Summons a dark cloud of stars overhead. Shortly after, the cloud
will release a violent deluge of star rain. This sorcery can be cast
while in motion. Charging increases potency.

Thought to be the founding glintstone sorcery. The glimpse of the
primeval current that the astrologer saw became real, and the
stars' amber rained down on this land

Additionally Glintstones are called shooting stars

Enchanted work of craft made in tandem with Full Moon Crossbow. The tip is embedded with glintstone.

Like a shooting star, these bolts leave a beautiful trail when fired. Deals magic damage.

Gravity Magic is just an aspect of Glinstone Sorcery in general

The stars illustrated on the set are suns, they are balls with branches, as the sun is often represented.

That wouldn't make them 4-C with the above. Or at least that's how it was argued previously.

We can ask @Mr. Bambu and @DarkGrath to comment, since they were the primary ones who wanted the rating split / didn't want to include Radahn's star stuff at all.

Personally I'm fine with changing "possibly" to "likely", but I don't think enough has changed to replace the original thread decision.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This blog (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Emirp_sumitpo/Elden_Ring_Large_Star_level_explanation) proves that Radahn also stopped the movement of actual stars, not just meteorites. There are blatant statements in this blog that talk about "constellations", which is a term we use to talk about stars, and the illustrations on the Preceptor's blue outfit represent suns, and the description says that the outfit also represents their movements and that they have been stopped (Everything I say is in the blog).

Some people may try to contradict this by saying that the stars in ER are just alien creatures like the Astel, and therefore we cannot give this feat a Tier 4, but that is completely false and a misunderstanding of the lore:

To begin with, the Astel are evolved forms of the Fallingstar Beast, and we call them "stars"/"fallingstars" because they come from space, they are directly born from meteorites:
"Katana forged from meteoric ore to dispatch lifeforms born of falling stars."

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Meteoric+Ore+Blade

Also the simple fact that Astel is called "malformed star" proves that it is not a normal star, so saying that all the stars in ER are like Astel is also wrong. He is even explicitly described as a "falling star":

"A malformed star born in the flightless void far away. Once destroyed an Eternal City and took away their sky. A falling star of ill omen."

Remembrance of the Naturalborn | Elden Ring Wiki

Remembrance of the Naturalborn Consumable Guide: Where to find Remembrance of the Naturalborn in Elden Ring, Uses, Map, Farming, Crafting, Tips and Tricks.

eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com

Is Astel is called a "malformed star" because, well, it's a creepy creature that comes from space, it's an evolved form of a fallingstar beast that was born from a meteorite. That's it.

IRL we also call meteorites shooting/falling stars, but does that mean that the stars in our universe are all meteorites? Of course not.

So there should not be "Mountain level, possibly/likely Large Star Level" in the profiles, but just a straight Large Star level.

It does not prove without issue. This is why it is possibly. We have had this discussion in the past- perhaps not you specifically, but they certainly exist. There is countless evidence that the stars they are referring to are not outright traditional stars.

Radahn's "star" only caused a small crater (the 7-A feat)- proving, in my view, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are not full stars. Mixed with the very creatures being referred to as stars, I have never even seen an individual outside of this specific wiki talk about the feat thinking they were literal, full, gaseous stars. To claim that this is concrete is to ignore countless instances of context.

Disagree, always will disagree. It's possibly at best.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

In the real world sure, but not in Elden Ring

In Elden Ring too, because there is nothing that says the opposite. Fallingstar beasts/astels are not stars, they are living beings born from meteorites (Source: Meteoric ore blade). The stars of ER are giant balls of magic, not giant Lovecraftian insects.

The fact that reality itself is a Microcosom is itself evidence that they're not similar.

And? Meteorites, comets, stars, constellations, star clusters, planets and moons exist in ER, the only difference is that they are magical. Saying that destroying a planet or a star in ER is not Planet or Star lvl because the cosmology on a larger scale is different is crazy

All magic comes from the study of stars. Even Glintstone, which features a spell that just summons stars to air strike people

Glintstone magic comes from glintstones which themselves come from the stars. Sellen and the descriptions of primeval sorceries explain this clearly.
Purple glintstones and gravity magic, which is not used by Raya Lucaria, come from meteorites as explained in the meteorite fragments in the game.

Additionally Glintstones are called shooting stars

No, the description says that the spell acts LIKE a shooting star, not that glintstones are shooting stars. Like IRL, shooting stars are also the name given to meteorites in ER, and meteorites are the origins of purple glintstones, gravity magic, fallingstar beasts and alabaster/onyx lords.

Gravity Magic is just an aspect of Glinstone Sorcery in general

Gravity magic is called "glintstone sorcery" because they come from meteorites which are also called "shooting stars"/"stars" in the game because they come from space.

The whole deal with ER's space elements called "stars" has caused people to misunderstand this aspect of the lore in the fandom and over thinking it in a weird way.

That wouldn't make them 4-C with the above. Or at least that's how it was argued previously.

That would make them at least 4-B as you said in the discussion thread

 

[Qawsedf234]

Fallingstar beasts/astels are not stars

They are stars. In Elden Ring they call anything in space a star

The stars of ER are giant balls of magic, not giant Lovecraftian insects.

The main issue being is that even if that is universally true, that would still mean that them being 4-C is questionable. Since Magic =/= Plasma.

Saying that destroying a planet or a star in ER is not Planet or Star lvl because the cosmology on a larger scale is different is crazy

I mean we know for sure that destroying a Moon doesn't need to be Moon level, since Astel destroyed the Moon of the Nox and crashed it into the planet, but that didn't cause 5-C levels of damage.

Glintstone magic comes from glintstones which themselves come from the stars. Sellen and the descriptions of primeval sorceries explain this clearly.

Glintstones are called shooting stars and star dusts and also fall from the heavens. The difference between them and meteors are the aspects of magic that they represent rather than the origin themselves.

No, the description says that the spell acts LIKE a shooting star, not that glintstones are shooting stars

Other spells call Glintstones shooting stars

Legendary sorcery devised by Lusat, primeval sorcerers.

Fires twelve dark shooting stars that pursue the target. This sorcery can be cast while in motion. Charging increases potency.

When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster, and upon seeing it, he too was broken.

Its why the comparison is made. They all come from space.

That would make them at least 4-B as you said in the discussion thread

I think the most you'd get is High 4-C, since Radahn at best only effected like 640 to 1,600 total stars. I've never seen a count get him to baseline 4-B.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

There is countless evidence that the stars they are referring to are not outright traditional stars.

The only evidence that proves that the stars of ER are not like IRL is that they are the origins of glintstones, that's the only one, and that just means that they are giant balls of magic instead of gas.

Radahn's "star" only caused a small crater (the 7-A feat)- proving, in my view, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are not full stars

This is because the “stars” we see in the feat are meteorites. Radahn also stopped actual stars as the blog proves. Meteorites and stars were both held in stasis by Radahn.

Mixed with the very creatures being referred to as stars, I have never even seen an individual outside of this specific wiki talk about the feat thinking they were literal, full, gaseous stars.

Creatures come from meteorites, not stars. The stars in ER are magic balls, not creatures.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The only evidence that proves that the stars of ER are not like IRL is that they are the origins of glintstones, that's the only one, and that just means that they are giant balls of magic instead of gas.

Radahn's own star visibly not doing High 4-C damage, which is a direct disqualifier per the rules of this wiki

The countless things called "stars" consistently that are visibly not stars in any traditional sense

The only thing that would make this Tier 4 is if you ignore the context and take the words at face value. "Stars". In the void of all context, it is compelling. In the light of context, it is flimsy and weak. It requires us to interpret things as they are in real life rather than how they are portrayed in ER. I am in no mood to entertain this 'the only evidence' chatter, this thread offers nothing new over what the last thread did. No.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

They are stars. In Elden Ring they call anything in space a star

No, they are meteorites. They are called "stars" for the same reason meteorites are called "shooting stars" irl.

Glintstones are called shooting stars and star dusts and also fall from the heavens

Glintstone are not called shooting stars (nor stardust), it's the blue projectiles they cast that they are, because they look like shooting stars. I’s as simple as that.

The difference between them and meteors are the aspects of magic that they represent rather than the origin themselves

Purple glintstones and gravity magic come from meteorites, it's explicitly written in the game.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

The only thing that would make this Tier 4 is if you ignore the context and take the words at face value. "Stars". In the void of all context, it is compelling. In the light of context, it is flimsy and weak. It requires us to interpret things as they are in real life rather than how they are portrayed in ER. I am in no mood to entertain this 'the only evidence' chatter, this thread offers nothing new over what the last thread did. No.

IRL we call meteorites "shooting stars", does that mean that all the stars irl are therefore rocks? Absolutely not. It's the same for ER

 

[Qawsedf234]

No, they are meteorites.

They're also stars. They're called both things since anything from space is called a star. Even Metyr is called a star because she also comes from space.

Glintstone are not called shooting stars (nor stardust)

They are, since Glintstones are just crystalized vital energy of other objects in space.

Our powers draw upon the powers embedded in glintstone,
but what is the nature of such power?

Glintstone is the amber of the cosmos,
golden amber contains the remnants of ancient life and houses its vitality,
while Glintstone contains residual life.

And thus, the vitality of the stars.

It should not be forgotten that glintstone sorcery is the study of the stars and the life therein.

They're shooting stars/comets.

Purple glintstones and gravity magic come from meteorites, it's explicitly written in the game.

They're also stars. You're thinking they can only be A or B, when they can be both because they're A subcategory B.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

They're also stars. They're called both things since anything from space is called a star. Even Metyr is called a star because she also comes from space.

They're also stars. You're thinking they can only be A or B, when they can be both because they're A subcategory B.

They are "stars", not literal stars. It's the same thing as old astrology irl where all celestial bodies (meteorites, comets, planets, moons, etc.) were called "stars". It's the same thing as irl when we call meteorites "shooting stars". Are you calling planets and meteorites literal stars irl???
Literal, full, actual stars like ours exists in ER (Source: Preceptor Set) but they are magic, and Radahn held back their movements.

They are, since Glintstones are just crystalized vital energy of other objects in space.

It's true, but they don't all come from the same celestial objects. Purple glintstones come from meteorites, and blue/green glintstones come from actual stars, and these glintstones fell on the Lands Between after a star cluster was destroyed (Source: Stars of Ruins and Founding Rain of Stars )

hey're shooting stars/comets.

Absolutely not. Glintstones are fragments of crystal, and these crystals come from actual stars. The words "shooting stars"/"comets" are used to refer to the projectiles that glintstone spells launch, as the projectiles mimic the movements of shooting stars and comets. It's straightforward.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I think the most you'd get is High 4-C, since Radahn at best only effected like 640 to 1,600 total stars. I've never seen a count get him to baseline 4-B.

It's because you base your calc on the "stars" that we see in the post-Radahn fight cutscene, which makes no sense because what we see in the sky in this cutscene are meteorites (, it's the same thing that we see in the cutscene), not literal stars. The description of the Celestial Dew says that the stars of the night sky affect fate. ALL the stars seen in the sky above us in Liurnia at night were affected by Radahn.

 

[Qawsedf234]

They are "stars", not literal stars

They're all lumped within the same category in Elden Ring and we don't know which type of star controls fate. Considering all the stars Radahn held in stasis lurched forward once he died, that means they're close to TLB. Arguably implying they're comets, shooting stars or astral beings rather than balls of Plasma.

Literal, full, actual stars like ours exists in ER (Source: Preceptor Set) but they are magic

You're shooting yourself in the foot here with this argument. Because if they're purely magic that means you have to prove that magic has mass, otherwise they're energy and not in 4-C in the first place scaling wise.

Purple glintstones come from meteorites, and blue/green glintstones come from actual stars, and these glintstones fell on the Lands Between after a star cluster was destroyed

By your own admission both sources come down from outerspace and are called stars by the people in-universe. You're again confusing the point. There's a greater category of "Stars" in universe that's just anything from space, that then narrows down to specifics like shooting stars, comets, meteors, astral beings and star-stars. But all of them are still called stars.

The words "shooting stars"/"comets" are used to refer to the projectiles that glintstone spells launch,

Glintstones impact TLB as shooting stars or comets and then grow from there.

ALL the stars seen in the sky above us in Liurnia at night were affected by Radahn.

If you want to bump the High 4-C end up you can do that I guess since you can argue 2k-4k stars visible from TLB. But ultimately I'm not seeing anything presented that really goes against the previously established agreement of two ends, one for meteors and one for IRL stars.