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Elden Ring General Discussion

Now that the DLC's been released, I just like how the increased difficulty of each conventional army associated with the demigods is actually justified in the story:

  • Godrick's: The weakest of them by far and in fact not even an army. His "troops" are really just a bunch of ill-equipped criminals, exiled knights, prisoners and bandits who have nowhere to go. None of them have the discipline, skills or organization required to create a force powerful enough to defy the other demigods. The land they occupy is almost entirely wilderness, the only other populated area outside of Stormveil is the Wheeping Peninsula which has fallen into chaos with the Misbegotten uprising and the castle itself is falling into pieces due to the corruption from Godwyn's twisted "corpse" (it even infects the soldiers if you look at their shield and models, some have holes in their limbs). The one thing Godrick has for himself is that his territory (Limgrave, Stormveil & Wheeping Peninsula) is by far the largest territory with tons of fortifications, farmlands and a lot more civilians than just about any other territory (save maybe for Liurnia if you consider the Raya Lucaria sorcerers civilians) and because of that his army is still sizeable but the place is still worthless since it's in ruins and it's the furthest from the Erdtree. This of course reflects how Godrick is nothing more than a weakling who is not even a true contender for the throne, he has no skill, no strategic mind, his ambitions are pretty pathetic and he really only holds his territory because none of the other demigods wanted it. Naturally, soldiers there are the weakest in the game.
  • Liurnia: The Knights of the Cuckoo are in a much better state for various reasons. Better equipment, wider arsenal of skills and armors, genuine fighting skills and experience and their own brand of spells. Plus it helps the region stood neutral during the Shattering so it avoided the worse part of the war. However, the civil war with the Raya Lucaria Academy has worn down their number to considerable degree and it's still going on, meaning they continue to lose numbers. Because of that, the Knights of the Cuckoo are relatively rare on the map but are still very dangerous.
  • Caelid (Redmanes): One of the strongest armies in the game, highly experienced at fighting and strategy, equipped with excellent weapons, spells and possessing a ridiculous degree of willpower, enough that they could be a match for Malenia and managed to single-handedly stop the Scarlet Rot from spreading outside of the region. In short, they're hardened, multi-experienced and full-time badasses. However, their struggles in Caelid has been grinding them down, reducing them to a still sizeable but not massive army. While powerful, they don't have the numbers required to do anything more than stopping the Scarlet Rot, which is a full-time job. Like the Cuckoos, you don't meet many of them but when you do, they're all very, very tough and can easily make your life hell even at higher levels. Like Godrick, this reflects Radahn's state in the story: far from his prime but still extremely mighty.
  • Mt Gelmir: There's no army left after the battle between Rykard and Morgott's forces. We're told most of them left after Rykard merged with the God-Devouring Serpent, at least one died trying to kill him, some necessarily died against Leyndell and many were probably either sacrificed or eaten by Rykard. All that's left are monsters, wild animals, some machines and a few Leyndell troops who have succombed to insanity. But Mt Gelmir is such a hellish place that anything that survives there is going to be among the meanest and strongest simply because you HAVE to be this to survive there. It also reflects the whole Recusant philosophy about survival of the fittest. The horrific state of Mt Gelmir also ties to what Rykard has become and how strong he is now. Not the most skilled and perhaps not the strongest in raw power but easily THE toughest and most durable thing (above even the Fire Giant or Malenia in terms of HP) and a monstruosity who fights with extremely dark powers and a twisted weapon more than anything human. It's worth noting that at their peak, Rykard's troops were strong enough to fight Leyndell's troops to pretty much a draw.
  • Leyndell's Army: By far the best equipped and most organized of the conventional armies. Their armor are still glimmering and even shiny, they have several, very well-guarded strongholds equipped with powerful war machines set up in advantageous positions, the whole Altus region is constantly patrolled by large groups of soldiers, you find dozens of outposts and areas that are extremely well-defended, soldiers have access to not only excellent weapons and shields but also multiple powerful spells and the Lordsworn Knights are met in much higher numbers than for any other army. This is particulary notable in that Leyndell's army is nothing but a shadow of its former self. The city, while in very good shape, is still damaged, with multiple broken or outright destroyed houses and buildings, the lower areas are infested with undead, rats, monsters and some corpses and you can find worn down soldiers simply sitting around. In terms of gameplay, the Leyndell soldiers are much more difficult to kill even with Magic (the damages are even more reduced than for the Haligtree with their shields), they're faster, in larger numbers and hit a lot harder. This is the result of several factors, namely the fact that Altus and Leyndell are the closest areas to the Erdtree, with dialogue from a cut NPC states that proximity to the Erdtree makes one healthier and stronger and Leyndell is of course buildt around the tree itself, the territory is easier to defend due to its shape and location and Morgott is a master strategist and political craftman who focused on fortifying Leyndell against his demigods brethen. Again, this reflects Morgott, both in fighting style and raw power (strong boss with precise and efficient moves and a vast arsenal of abilities) and personnality and arc (his obsession with maintaining the Golden Order at all costs, which makes him complicit in the decaying of the world) and even reflects his Great Rune (which only considerably boosts HP). And again, this is just a shadow of what Leyndell was.
 
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ArkhamDC06 said:
Now that the DLC's been released, I just like how the increased difficulty of each conventional army associated with the demigods is actually justified in the story:

  • Godrick's: The weakest of them by far and in fact not even an army. His "troops" are really just a bunch of ill-equipped criminals, exiled knights, prisoners and bandits who have nowhere to go. None of them have the discipline, skills or organization required to create a force powerful enough to defy the other demigods. The land they occupy is almost entirely wilderness, the only other populated area outside of Stormveil is the Wheeping Peninsula which has fallen into chaos with the Misbegotten uprising and the castle itself is falling into pieces due to the corruption from Godwyn's twisted "corpse" (it even infects the soldiers if you look at their shield and models, some have holes in their limbs). The one thing Godrick has for himself is that his territory (Limgrave, Stormveil & Wheeping Peninsula) is by far the largest territory with tons of fortifications, farmlands and a lot more civilians than just about any other territory (save maybe for Liurnia if you consider the Raya Lucaria sorcerers civilians) and because of that his army is still sizeable but the place is still worthless since it's in ruins and it's the furthest from the Erdtree. This of course reflects how Godrick is nothing more than a weakling who is not even a true contender for the throne, he has no skill, no strategic mind, his ambitions are pretty pathetic and he really only holds his territory because none of the other demigods wanted it. Naturally, soldiers there are the weakest in the game.
  • Liurnia: The Knights of the Cuckoo are in a much better state for various reasons. Better equipment, wider arsenal of skills and armors, genuine fighting skills and experience and their own brand of spells. Plus it helps the region stood neutral during the Shattering so it avoided the worse part of the war. However, the civil war with the Raya Lucaria Academy has worn down their number to considerable degree and it's still going on, meaning they continue to lose numbers. Because of that, the Knights of the Cuckoo are relatively rare on the map but are still very dangerous.
  • Caelid (Redmanes): One of the strongest armies in the game, highly experienced at fighting and strategy, equipped with excellent weapons, spells and possessing a ridiculous degree of willpower, enough that they could be a match for Malenia and managed to single-handedly stop the Scarlet Rot from spreading outside of the region. In short, they're hardened, multi-experienced and full-time badasses. However, their struggles in Caelid has been grinding them down, reducing them to a still sizeable but not massive army. While powerful, they don't have the numbers required to do anything more than stopping the Scarlet Rot, which is a full-time job. Like the Cuckoos, you don't meet many of them but when you do, they're all very, very tough and can easily make your life hell even at higher levels. Like Godrick, this reflects Radahn's state in the story: far from his prime but still extremely mighty.
  • Mt Gelmir: There's no army left after the battle between Rykard and Morgott's forces. We're told most of them left after Rykard merged with the God-Devouring Serpent, at least one died trying to kill him, some necessarily died against Leyndell and many were probably either sacrificed or eaten by Rykard. All that's left are monsters, wild animals, some machines and a few Leyndell troops who have succombed to insanity. But Mt Gelmir is such a hellish place that anything that survives there is going to be among the meanest and strongest simply because you HAVE to be this to survive there. It also reflects the whole Recusant philosophy about survival of the fittest. The horrific state of Mt Gelmir also ties to what Rykard has become and how strong he is now. Not the most skilled and perhaps not the strongest in raw power but easily THE toughest and most durable thing (above even the Fire Giant or Malenia in terms of HP) and a monstruosity who fights with extremely dark powers and a twisted weapon more than anything human. It's worth noting that at their peak, Rykard's troops were strong enough to fight Leyndell's troops to pretty much a draw.
  • Leyndell's Army: By far the best equipped and most organized of the conventional armies. Their armor are still glimmering and even shiny, they have several, very well-guarded stronghold equipped with powerful war machines set up in advantageous positions, the whole Altus region is constantly patrolled by large groups of soldiers, you find dozens of outposts and areas that are extremely well-defended, soldiers have access to not only excellent weapons and shields but also multiple powerful spells and the Lonsworn Knights are met in much higher numbers than for any other army. This is particulary notable in that Leyndell's army is nothing but a shadow of its former self. The city, while in very good shape, is still damaged, with multiple broken or outright destroyed houses and buildings, the lower areas are infested with undead, rats, monsters and some corpses and you can find worn down soldiers simply sitting around. In terms of gameplay, the Leyndell soldiers are much more difficult to kill even with Magic (the dmagaes are even more reduced than for the Haligtree with their shields), they're faster, in larger numbers and hit a lot harder. This is the result of several factors, namely the fact that Altus and Leyndell are the closest areas to the Erdtree, with dialogue from a cut NPC states that proximity to the Erdtree makes one healthier and stronger and Leyndell is of course buildt around the tree itself, the territory is easier to defend due to its shape and location and Morgott is a master strategist and political craftman who focused on fortifying Leyndell against his demigods brethen. Again, this reflects Morgott, both in fighting style and raw power (strong boss with precise and efficient moves and a vast arsenal of power) and personnality and arc (his obsession with maintaining the Golden Order at all costs, which makes him complicit in the decaying of the world) and even reflects his Great Rune (which only considerably boosts HP). And again, this is just a shadow of what Leyndell was.
Click to expand...
Imo prime Redmanes were prob second only to Leyndell.
 
  • Mohgwyn: Technically, Mohg doesn't have an army, only a bunch of murderous maniacs, monsters, kidnapped Albinaurics and surgeons and because he was never supposed to be a Lord, he doesn't even have Lordsworn. What he has however, is an army that, because he was never supposed to be a contender, has suffer little to no loss during the Shattering. His agents, all very skilled warriors handpicked by Mohg himself with a wide variety of skills and dangerous weapons, are found throughout the entire game, from Limgrave to the Mountaintops of the Giants and they're backed up by an Outer God of blood who grants them access to her powers, giving them powerful incantations and a serious boost in power thanks to the Lord of Blood's Exultation talisman. They're less of an army and more of a bunch of psychopaths and monsters tied together by bloodlust and sadism but they're at the top of their game and all of them are very powerful and very dangerous enemies in the game who can use one of the most dangerous status effects in the game and hit like freight trains launched at full speed. Like with the others, this reflects Mohg himself, a superboss with a very wide pool of blood abilities, including one that lets him one-shot you if you don't have a specific item and hits phenomenally hard (and if you want to go further, you can also notice how his moves are clumsy and rely more on strength than any skill, reflecting how his dynasty is not a real army and he himself isn't a strategist but he's still massively powerful and amassing an immense force).
  • The Haligtree: The best in terms of individual equipment and skill, with support from multiple non-human creatures, sorcerers and so on. The Haligtree is a relatively safe region that is very difficult to reach so they haven't suffered as much losses as the other fiefdoms. Also helping matters is that the Haligtree is not only close to the Erdtree (and thus they would benefit from the stronger and healthier effect) but it was also supposed to replace the Erdtree and was powered by a demigod directly chosen to be Marika's successor, thus granting them a significant boost in power. Naturally, Malenia being their leader makes them terrifyingly skilled fighters and her own knights are extremely tough, very hard hitting and have access to some of the strongest spells any non-boss enemy can have in the game, making them elite troops even compared to other elite troops. Even though the Haligtree is currently decaying because of the Scarlet Rot (which does affect them, since like with Leyndell we see worn down soldiers simply sitting against walls and the Cleanrot Knights are kind of limping and will even throw out at times), the troops there remain stronger than almost any army in the game both out of strength and devotion to Miquella and his cause (to the point they have a suicide-bombing incantation in their repertoire). In game, they're some of the toughest soldiers, even the basic mooks. Which makes it all the more perfect since the Haligtree, more precisely Elphael, is the location where we fight Malenia, aka one of the strongest characters in the all game and the toughest and most difficult boss in the base game.
  • Messmer's army: THE strongest army, by FAR. And the reason for that is very simple. The other armies, even the most organized, well-equipped and strongest, are at best still very strong but nowhere near their prime. Even the Haligtree's army is not at its peak, with the Scarlet Rot infecting them and their home and the lower levels of Elphael being basically invaded Rot servants and creatures and drenched in Rot pools. Messmer's army meanwhile is in the middle of an on-going campaign in an incredibly brutal war where they have the blatant advantage. Their basic soldiers are immensly strong, the Black Knights are stupidly dangerous enemies that can tear apart even the strongest opponents, the Fire Knights have access to absurdly deadly incantations based on Messmer's Flame in addition of being widely skilled and versatile in moves and arsenal (one of said incantations even being a firestorm), their outposts are barely damaged if at all, their troops are tough enough to give struggle to a Ghostflame Dragon, the're found just about everywhere in the Land of Shadows, their equipment is far superior to that of other factions with even the lowest mooks having access to powerful axes and spells while the Black Knights have giant hammer or double polearms that can easily demolish high level Tarnished in two shots, you even fight three specific Fire Knights which all have specific names and their own gimmicks that serve as pseudo officers for the rest of the group. And of course, the Golem Furnaces, ridiculously gigantic machines of raw destruction each one of so big they're as tall as the Fire Giants and are mobile locations on the map and are basically mini-bosses in all but name. Messmer himself is not simply incredibly strong even by demigod standards, he's also very visibly a master warrior and strategist, with the trailer showing his army marching in a perfectly organized manner, strictly and perfectly following orders during their rampage which is in itself a pretty big achievement, and who inspires immense loyalty in his followers and soldiers (to the point even if two of his Black Knights betrayed him after learning about the Abyssal Serpent, the Fire Knights who knew about it continued to follow him). This is not even talking about his main lieutenants, Rellana and Gaius, both ridiculous powerful and skilled master combattants utterly devoted to him, which only adds to the raw power of his forces. It's also worth noting the flavor text of the Shadow Realm Runes found throughout the DLC state that the soldiers who took part in Messmer's crusade were rewarded with "grace aplenty", and that "the light of their grace grew ever more brilliant". Not only did Messmer's troops receive more Runes than would have been typical for Lordsworn, but their time in the Realm of Shadow also seems to have done something to further augment their strength. Once again, this reflects Messmer himself, again an incredibly strong and skilled demigod with spectaculary destructive and strong powers and easily one of the toughest bosses in not simply the DLC or even Elden Ring but the entire Fromsoftware catalogue.
 
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p06laxZ8FwXrmOMwLHiL8le-wRsf0EBgqhBdB4i1aQFde2-iJCZBx7zeSkeQ0jfRYdLaq5Xs6TmQYMk=s1600-rw-nd-v1
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
  • Mohgwyn: Technically, Mohg doesn't have an army, only a bunch of murderous maniacs, monsters, kidnapped Albinaurics and surgeons and because he was never supposed to be a Lord, he doesn't even have Lordsworn. What he has however, is an army that, because he was never supposed to be a contender, has suffer little to no loss during the Shattering. His agents, all very skilled warriors handpicked by Mohg himself with a wide variety of skills and dangerous weapons, are found throughout the entire game, from Limgrave to the Mountaintops of the Giants and they're backed up by an Outer God of blood who grants them access to her powers, giving them powerful incantations and a serious boost in power thanks to the Lord of Blood's Exultation talisman. They're less of an army and more of a bunch of psychopaths and monsters tied together by bloodlust and sadism but they're at the top of their game and all of them are very powerful and very dangerous enemies in the game who can use one of the most dangerous status effects in the game and hit like freight trains launched at full speed. Like with the others, this reflects Mohg himself, a superboss with a very wide pool of blood abilities, including one that lets him one-shot you if you don't have a specific item and hits phenomenally hard (and if you want to go further, you can also notice how his moves are clumsy and rely more on strength than any skill, reflecting how his dynasty is not a real army and he himself isn't a strategist but he's still massively powerful and amassing an immense force).
  • The Haligtree: The best in terms of individual equipment and skill, with support from multiple non-human creatures, sorcerers and so on. The Haligtree is a relatively safe region that is very difficult to reach so they haven't suffered as much losses as the other fiefdoms. Also helping matters is that the Haligtree is not only close to the Erdtree (and thus they would benefit from the stronger and healthier effect) but it was also supposed to replace the Erdtree and was powered by a demigod directly chosen to be Marika's successor, thus granting them a significant boost in power. Naturally, Malenia being their leader makes them terrifyingly skilled fighters and her own knights are extremely tough, very hard hitting and have access to some of the strongest spells any non-boss enemy can have in the game, making them elite troops even compared to other elite troops. Even though the Haligtree is currently decaying because of the Scarlet Rot (which does affect them, since like with Leyndell we see worn down soldiers simply sitting against walls and the Cleanrot Knights are kind of limping and will even throw out at times), the troops there remain stronger than almost any army in the game both out of strength and devotion to Miquella and his cause (to the point they have a suicide-bombing incantation in their repertoire). In game, they're some of the toughest soldiers, even the basic mooks. Which makes it all the more perfect since the Haligtree, more precisely Elphael, is the location where we fight Malenia, aka one of the strongest characters in the all game and the toughest and most difficult boss in the base game.
  • Messmer's army: THE strongest army, by FAR. And the reason for that is very simple. The other armies, even the most organized, well-equipped and strongest, are at best still very strong but nowhere near their prime. Even the Haligtree's army is not at its peak, with the Scarlet Rot infecting them and their home and the lower levels of Elphael being basically invaded Rot servants and creatures and drenched in Rot pools. Messmer's army meanwhile is in the middle of an on-going campaign in an incredibly brutal war where they have the blatant advantage. Their basic soldiers are immensly strong, the Black Knights are stupidly dangerous enemies that can tear apart even the strongest opponents, the Fire Knights have access to absurdly deadly incantations based on Messmer's Flame in addition of being widely skilled and versatile in moves and arsenal (one of said incantations even being a firestorm), their outposts are barely damaged if at all, their troops are tough enough to give struggle to a Ghostflame Dragon, the're found just about everywhere in the Land of Shadows, their equipment is far superior to that of other factions with even the lowest mooks having access to powerful axes and spells while the Black Knights have giant hammer or double polearms that can easily demolish high level Tarnished in two shots, you even fight three specific Fire Knights which all have specific names and their own gimmicks that serve as pseudo officers for the rest of the group. And of course, the Golem Furnaces, ridiculously gigantic machines of raw destruction each one of so big they're as tall as the Fire Giants and are mobile locations on the map and are basically mini-bosses in all but name. Messmer himself is not simply incredibly strong even by demigod standards, he's also very visibly a master warrior and strategist, with the trailer showing his army marching in a perfectly organized manner, strictly and perfectly following orders during their rampage which is in itself a pretty big achievement, and who inspires immense loyalty in his followers and soldiers (to the point even if two of his Black Knights betrayed him after learning about the Abyssal Serpent, the Fire Knights who knew about it continued to follow him). This is not even talking about his main lieutenants, Rellana and Gaius, both ridiculous powerful and skilled master combattants utterly devoted to him, which only adds to the raw power of his forces. It's also worth noting the flavor text of the Shadow Realm Runes found throughout the DLC state that the soldiers who took part in Messmer's crusade were rewarded with "grace aplenty", and that "the light of their grace grew ever more brilliant". Not only did Messmer's troops receive more Runes than would have been typical for Lordsworn, but their time in the Realm of Shadow also seems to have done something to further augment their strength. Once again, this reflects Messmer himself, again an incredibly strong and skilled demigod with spectaculary destructive and strong powers and easily one of the toughest bosses in not simply the DLC or even Elden Ring but the entire Fromsoftware catalogue.
Click to expand...
Messmer's forces are actually absurd when you think about it. The Furnace Golems alone would more or less decimate most other armies, being giant, incredibly durable, mobile siege engines that can cover absurd ground with their fires and burn both body and soul. Rellana herself is a monster combatant, and took with her a pair of Carian Knights, whom are a rival for the Crucible Knights (I assume that's what's meant by "greatest champions of gold"). Gaius was a rival in gravity sorcery with a younger Radhan. Regular soldiers could cast spells and hold off a Dragon in groups, etc.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
  • Mohgwyn: Technically, Mohg doesn't have an army, only a bunch of murderous maniacs, monsters, kidnapped Albinaurics and surgeons and because he was never supposed to be a Lord, he doesn't even have Lordsworn. What he has however, is an army that, because he was never supposed to be a contender, has suffer little to no loss during the Shattering. His agents, all very skilled warriors handpicked by Mohg himself with a wide variety of skills and dangerous weapons, are found throughout the entire game, from Limgrave to the Mountaintops of the Giants and they're backed up by an Outer God of blood who grants them access to her powers, giving them powerful incantations and a serious boost in power thanks to the Lord of Blood's Exultation talisman. They're less of an army and more of a bunch of psychopaths and monsters tied together by bloodlust and sadism but they're at the top of their game and all of them are very powerful and very dangerous enemies in the game who can use one of the most dangerous status effects in the game and hit like freight trains launched at full speed. Like with the others, this reflects Mohg himself, a superboss with a very wide pool of blood abilities, including one that lets him one-shot you if you don't have a specific item and hits phenomenally hard (and if you want to go further, you can also notice how his moves are clumsy and rely more on strength than any skill, reflecting how his dynasty is not a real army and he himself isn't a strategist but he's still massively powerful and amassing an immense force).
  • The Haligtree: The best in terms of individual equipment and skill, with support from multiple non-human creatures, sorcerers and so on. The Haligtree is a relatively safe region that is very difficult to reach so they haven't suffered as much losses as the other fiefdoms. Also helping matters is that the Haligtree is not only close to the Erdtree (and thus they would benefit from the stronger and healthier effect) but it was also supposed to replace the Erdtree and was powered by a demigod directly chosen to be Marika's successor, thus granting them a significant boost in power. Naturally, Malenia being their leader makes them terrifyingly skilled fighters and her own knights are extremely tough, very hard hitting and have access to some of the strongest spells any non-boss enemy can have in the game, making them elite troops even compared to other elite troops. Even though the Haligtree is currently decaying because of the Scarlet Rot (which does affect them, since like with Leyndell we see worn down soldiers simply sitting against walls and the Cleanrot Knights are kind of limping and will even throw out at times), the troops there remain stronger than almost any army in the game both out of strength and devotion to Miquella and his cause (to the point they have a suicide-bombing incantation in their repertoire). In game, they're some of the toughest soldiers, even the basic mooks. Which makes it all the more perfect since the Haligtree, more precisely Elphael, is the location where we fight Malenia, aka one of the strongest characters in the all game and the toughest and most difficult boss in the base game.
  • Messmer's army: THE strongest army, by FAR. And the reason for that is very simple. The other armies, even the most organized, well-equipped and strongest, are at best still very strong but nowhere near their prime. Even the Haligtree's army is not at its peak, with the Scarlet Rot infecting them and their home and the lower levels of Elphael being basically invaded Rot servants and creatures and drenched in Rot pools. Messmer's army meanwhile is in the middle of an on-going campaign in an incredibly brutal war where they have the blatant advantage. Their basic soldiers are immensly strong, the Black Knights are stupidly dangerous enemies that can tear apart even the strongest opponents, the Fire Knights have access to absurdly deadly incantations based on Messmer's Flame in addition of being widely skilled and versatile in moves and arsenal (one of said incantations even being a firestorm), their outposts are barely damaged if at all, their troops are tough enough to give struggle to a Ghostflame Dragon, the're found just about everywhere in the Land of Shadows, their equipment is far superior to that of other factions with even the lowest mooks having access to powerful axes and spells while the Black Knights have giant hammer or double polearms that can easily demolish high level Tarnished in two shots, you even fight three specific Fire Knights which all have specific names and their own gimmicks that serve as pseudo officers for the rest of the group. And of course, the Golem Furnaces, ridiculously gigantic machines of raw destruction each one of so big they're as tall as the Fire Giants and are mobile locations on the map and are basically mini-bosses in all but name. Messmer himself is not simply incredibly strong even by demigod standards, he's also very visibly a master warrior and strategist, with the trailer showing his army marching in a perfectly organized manner, strictly and perfectly following orders during their rampage which is in itself a pretty big achievement, and who inspires immense loyalty in his followers and soldiers (to the point even if two of his Black Knights betrayed him after learning about the Abyssal Serpent, the Fire Knights who knew about it continued to follow him). This is not even talking about his main lieutenants, Rellana and Gaius, both ridiculous powerful and skilled master combattants utterly devoted to him, which only adds to the raw power of his forces. It's also worth noting the flavor text of the Shadow Realm Runes found throughout the DLC state that the soldiers who took part in Messmer's crusade were rewarded with "grace aplenty", and that "the light of their grace grew ever more brilliant". Not only did Messmer's troops receive more Runes than would have been typical for Lordsworn, but their time in the Realm of Shadow also seems to have done something to further augment their strength. Once again, this reflects Messmer himself, again an incredibly strong and skilled demigod with spectaculary destructive and strong powers and easily one of the toughest bosses in not simply the DLC or even Elden Ring but the entire Fromsoftware catalogue.
Click to expand...
The Cleanrot Knights never lost a battle during the greatest of all wars (The Shattering).

Malenia's army > Messmer's army > Rykard's army > Morgott's army ~ Radahn's army.
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
The Cleanrot Knights never lost a battle during the greatest of all wars (The Shattering).

Malenia's army > Messmer's army > Rykard's army > Morgott's army ~ Radahn's army.
Click to expand...
Comment was about the state of the armies by the time we encounter them.

At that point, the Haligtree army is still in excellent shape and very strong but it's still decaying and far from its prime. Outside of the Haligtree, we only encounter a handful of Cleanrot Knights in remote locations and the Haligtree itself, while still there and fortified, is definitely not in a good state. And yeah, they never lost a battle but they still lost soldiers and are not outright invincible.

By contrast, Messmer's army is much bigger, his troops are far more varied and well-equipped, his stronghold still intact and his forces are at their peak. Plus remember that the DLC is set after Malenia so by that point, the Tarnished has already fought the Haligtree soldiers and Messmer's hit harder in terms of pure gameplay.

In any case, it's a moot point to compare them since Messmer didn't take part to the Shattering so we don't know how his army would compare to the others (I'm enclined to think he would easily defeat most of them via sheer number and raw power but that's just me).
 
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Planck69 said:
Why would Rykard's army be above Radhan's?
Click to expand...
Radahn's army could not defeat Leyndell's, and Leyndell's army could not defeat Mount Gelmir's, their war is still ongoing.
So is:
Leyndell army = Gelmir army > Radahn army (but the Leyndell Knights are the best in defenses, so to say that they are better overall than the Redmane Knights only based on a single battle where Leyndell was the defenders is not fair on my part I admit)

Planck69 said:
Malenia's above Messmer's? Not losing a war during the Shattering doesn't automatically make them the best at all.
Click to expand...
In this case, yes, that means they are the best. Even the Redmane Knights have never won a battle against them, even with their gravity magic. The Cleanrot Knights are the strongest soldiers of the Shattering, which itself is considered the greatest war of all time.


ArkhamDC06 said:
Comment was about the state of the armies by the time we encounter them.
Click to expand...
My bad then
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
In this case, yes, that means they are the best. Even the Redmane Knights have never won a battle against them, even with their gravity magic. The Cleanrot Knights are the strongest soldiers of the Shattering, which itself is considered the greatest war of all time.
Click to expand...
Being the best of the Shattering isn't a point over his armies cause they didn't participate in it for this to be relevant to their comparison. It being considered the greatest war... also isn't some surefire confirmation when the other force wasn't counted in it. At most, it serves as a good baseline for their martial prowess.

Comparing them both;
  • Messmer has greater firepower (figuratively and literally) thanks to the Furnace Golems.
  • His magical support seems to be significantly better as Malenia didn't have many incantation users to compare to Messmer's Fire Sages and Knights. Not to mention how fire is a counter to Rot.
  • Malenia had an undefeated campaign against multiple enemies and Messmer came out victorious in his main campaign. I suppose you can say her forces faced more people and variety.
  • Messmer's main commanders (Rellana and Gaius) are themselves on a level with Demigods and beings of that nature, whereas Malenia didn't really have someone of that caliber under her command.

Strength wise for individual Knights, it's pretty nebulous. You can use in-game scaling but I'd rather not.
 
Planck69 said:
  • Messmer's main commanders (Rellana and Gaius) are themselves on a level with Demigods and beings of that nature, whereas Malenia didn't really have someone of that caliber under her command.

Strength wise for individual Knights, it's pretty nebulous. You can use in-game scaling but I'd rather not.
Click to expand...
She has Finlay.
 
Planck69 said:
Strength wise for individual Knights, it's pretty nebulous. You can use in-game scaling but I'd rather not.
Click to expand...
For example the Carion Knights lore wise were strong af
Straight sword embedded with a blue glintstone.
Weapon of knights sworn to Carian royalty.

These knights' swords could serve as catalysts, letting them wield sorcerous battle skills. Despite numbering fewer than twenty, this power made them a match for even the champions of gold in battle.
Click to expand...
So lore wise the Carian Knights = GO Champions (which might include the Crucible Knights). So lore strength =/= game strength.
 
Planck69 said:
Being the best of the Shattering isn't a point over his armies cause they didn't participate in it for this to be relevant to their comparison. It being considered the greatest war... also isn't some surefire confirmation when the other force wasn't counted in it. At most, it serves as a good baseline for their martial prowess.
Click to expand...
Messmer's crusade is more of a genocide than a war, so Malenia's army has a better feat in this case, as it was an unbeatable force of a great war.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
She has Finlay.
Click to expand...
Nothing indicates she's that much above the regular Cleanrot Knights, or at least not to the point she can rival someone like Rellana. She accomplished a massively impressive feat but she doesn't seem to be outright special compared to the rest of Malenia's knights. Compare this to Kristoff, a Leyndell Lordsworn who personally defeated and imprisonned a demigod (albeit a weak one) on his own, which is already more impressive than his fellow Lordsworns
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
Nothing indicates she's that much above the regular Cleanrot Knights, or at least not to the point she can rival someone like Rellana. She accomplished a massively impressive feat but she doesn't seem to be outright special compared to the rest of Malenia's knights. Compare this to Kristoff, a Leyndell Lordsworn who personally defeated and imprisonned a demigod (albeit a weak one) on his own, which is already more impressive than his fellow Lordsworns
Click to expand...
Aren't all the Legendary Ashes supposed to be comparable to each other? Besides we're shown that Cleanrot Knights can harm Prime Radahn so they aren't weak by any means.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
Nothing indicates she's that much above the regular Cleanrot Knights, or at least not to the point she can rival someone like Rellana. She accomplished a massively impressive feat but she doesn't seem to be outright special compared to the rest of Malenia's knights. Compare this to Kristoff, a Leyndell Lordsworn who personally defeated and imprisonned a demigod (albeit a weak one) on his own, which is already more impressive than his fellow Lordsworns
Click to expand...
It's kinda hilarious what that means lore wise. Kristoff was a legendary dragon knight of a powerful and ancient order and his legendary victory making him worthy or burial was knocking out freaking Godefroy and dying from the effort.

I wonder where the Crucible Knight fall at strength wise. Since presumably it goes Legends > Champions > Knights > Lordsworn > Pesants strength wise.
Besides we're shown that Cleanrot Knights can harm Prime Radahn so they aren't weak by any means.
Click to expand...
Stabbing a dude hundreds and times and dying in equal/greater number only for him to then fight and disarm their legendary commander isn't the best showing though.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
It's kinda hilarious what that means lore wise. Kristoff was a legendary dragon knight of a powerful and ancient order and his legendary victory making him worthy or burial was knocking out freaking Godefroy and dying from the effort.

I wonder where the Crucible Knight fall at strength wise. Since presumably it goes Legends > Champions > Knights > Lordsworn > Pesants strength wise.

Stabbing a dude hundreds and times and dying in equal/greater number only for him to then fight and disarm their legendary commander isn't the best showing though.
Click to expand...
All I was trying to say is that they can harm Demi-Gods.
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Messmer's crusade is more of a genocide than a war, so Malenia's army has a better feat in this case, as it was an unbeatable force of a great war.
Click to expand...
It's... it's still also a war. The Hornsent were far from some hapless people that couldn't do anything given they could field Divine Beasts that controlled the storms themselves as well as the magics of the Crucible, on top of their regular Horned Warriors, Curseblades and Inquisitors.

Like I said, "they were great at X war" where Y never showed up isn't a confirmation that they're better than Y. Just that that they're better than individual forces of X. Especially considering they weren't like, fighting all other forces at once.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Aren't all the Legendary Ashes supposed to be comparable to each other?
Click to expand...
As Ashes technically yes but I was talking about them when they were alive. A Perfumer like Tricia was evidently not on the same level of skills and strength as, say, Omenkiller Rollo or Redmane Knight Ogha who studied with Radahn. In terms of feats, lore-wise there's a difference. That's why I say Finlay doesn't seem to be particulary different from any other Cleanrot Knight in terms of power. Don't get me wrong, what she did was spectacular nothing indicates she was especially different from the rest of the bunch, presumably any other Cleanrot Knight could have done it. It's the same as with Battlemage Hugues, the guy's notable not for his power but for being bloodthirsty enough that he started conflicts instead of trying to solve them like he should have.

When turned into Spirits and maxed out, it's a different matter.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
It's kinda hilarious what that means lore wise. Kristoff was a legendary dragon knight of a powerful and ancient order and his legendary victory making him worthy or burial was knocking out freaking Godefroy and dying from the effort.
Click to expand...
I don't know if he outright died from the effort or died later and was honored for his actions but dude was clearly buildt differently. He probably just took one look at Godefroy and was like:

Kristoff: "Into the Goal you go.
Godefroy: But? I'm a Demigod and you're puny mort-
Kristoff: Did I stutter?"

Qawsedf234 said:
I wonder where the Crucible Knight fall at strength wise. Since presumably it goes Legends > Champions > Knights > Lordsworn > Pesants strength wise.
Click to expand...
I'm enclined to think they were above in raw strength, at least compared to their alive self I'd say. Though at least Finaly, Kristoff, Ogha and probably Luthel should have been able to give them a challenge
 
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