East Blue to Skypiea revisions.

[MonkeyOfLife]

Neither did Luffy during Impel down arc.

There's no proof armament haki gets stronger while not actually using it but just fighting... Conqueror haki does since it links with willpower the most... When black beard said that, luffy only had conquerors haki... Which he unconsciously used in marine Ford after he said that

 

[Damage3245]

which attacks exactly? El thor is one of enels most powerful one which should be comparable with thunder dragon and shock release

From Zoro's justification:

Large Town level (Electrocuted by Enel and retains consciousness even getting back up soon after)

The attacks he was hit by are here and here.

Neither of these are his El Thor, and Enel's El Thor has never been stated to be his most powerful attack so as I'm aware. I'm not going to gripe about the discussion that was held up above but a lot of degreading was done towards my arguments by claiming they're just opinions, when I haven't seen anything other than opinion for Enel's El Thor being his most powerful attack.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Neither of these are his El Thor,

That tiger? Should be comparable to his dragon..

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

This isn't enels strongest attack either...

 

[Damage3245]

This isn't enels strongest attack either...

According to calcs it is.

If we're going to be really honest, we don't know that single attack there was the sole cause of the giant crater. Enel had an entire battle with the space pirates that we only see a glimpse of.

There's no way of proving it either way, but it's not impossible that Enel launched multiple attacks as he wiped them out and that's why there's such a huge crater.

Either way, even if it was only a single attack, that is Enel's most powerful attack (when he isn't augmented) that we know about according to what we can calculate.

 

[XDragnoir]

Enel haven't unlocked armament...

That has nothing to do with the stat amping, we have confirmation by an Kenbu user (Teach) that a non-buso user (pre ts Luffy) grew stronger and so did his haki.

When did sanji get stronger by doing nothing?

From the DJ does nothing to Luffy fight to his base is stronger than Oven and G3 fight.

Need more context... Don't have to tho

As someone said above everyone got stronger in EL by pretty much sitting in the train, Zoro even acknowledge this when fighting Kaku iirc.

That was probably conquerors haki... All haki gets stronger in battle not their actual stats...

What? First, he just said "haki" so, as Hiroki said above, he was talking about the energy that exists inside everyone and that is used to create Buso and Kenbu (Buso and Kenbu aren't different energies, they are different applications of "Pure Hakii").

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

But it's ok for you to say thats his strongest attack? Even do you literally contradicted your argument?

No. Enel's attacks explicitly vary in power. He even names them according to this sometimes.

So statement works only if you downgrade attacks...

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That has nothing to do with the stat amping, we have confirmation by an Kenbu user (Teach) that a non-buso user (pre ts Luffy) grew stronger and so did his haki.

Any proof blackbeard was talking about armament? Luffy had conquerors haki pre timeskip.

From the DJ does nothing to Luffy fight to his base is stronger than Oven and G3 fight.

Don't understand what you said.

As someone said above everyone got stronger in EL by pretty much sitting in the train, Zoro even acknowledge this when fighting Kaku iirc.

Getting beat up, recovering and fighting all makes you stronger... Luffy got beat up so many times and then becomes stronger...

What? First, he just said "haki" so, as Hiroki said above, he was talking about the energy that exists inside everyone and that is used to create Buso and Kenbu (Buso and Kenbu aren't different energies, they are different applications of "Pure Hakii").

I know but that's not something enel or luffy could use... Even if their haki gets stronger, that doesn't mean they can use that.

 

[Damage3245]

But it's ok for you to say thats his strongest attack? Even do you literally contradicted your argument?

So statement works only if you downgrade attacks...

No, I am saying that mathematically, that attack of Enel's on the Moon is the highest shown feat yet (unaugmented).

I'm not saying Enel needs to be downgraded. I'm saying you need something to go off of before you upgrade every single one of Enel's other attacks. Especially when we already have calcs for some of those attacks like his El Thor.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

No, I am saying that mathematically, that attack of Enel's on the Moon is the highest shown feat yet (unaugmented).

I'm not saying Enel needs to be downgraded. I'm saying you need something to go off of before you upgrade every single one of Enel's other attacks. Especially when we already have calcs for some of those attacks like his El Thor.

So if Enel has a statement about another attack being far stronger what would happen?

 

[Damage3245]

So if Enel has a statement about another attack being far stronger what would happen?

Obviously that'd be new evidence to take into account. I'm not aware of any statement at the moment though.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Well... Let me go translate

 

[XDragnoir]

Why are you assuming those examples are due to Haki's acclerated development?

Because that's the only explanation and isn't against what we already know.

As for Enel, it's literally one of his highest feats and it's done after the greatest fight of his life up to that point, not only that but he has also been using haki for years, to the point he can increase his Kenbu with his DF, i see no reason why a post-fight haki increase wouldn't affect his AP.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

i see no reason why a post-fight haki increase wouldn't affect his AP.

Because he can't use his haki to Amp attacks

 

[Eminiteable]

Because that's the only explanation and isn't against what we already know.

There's no evidence that Luffy's and Sanji's individual accelerated development applies to all haki users.

i see no reason why a post-fight haki increase wouldn't affect his AP.

We literally don't see or have a statement that his haki increased?

 

[XDragnoir]

Any proof blackbeard was talking about armament? Luffy had conquerors haki pre timeskip.

Because he can't use his haki to Amp attacks

Armament isn't the only way to amp a DF, Law can use his powers against Vergo because his Haki is stronger not because he was applying Buso to his Room afaik, while Enel is already know for mixing his DF and Haki, just because he isn't aware of how to focus Haki in one spot to create an armor (busoshoku) doesn't mean a big increase to pure haki wouldn't affect him.

Don't understand what you said.

While fighting Luffy Sanji isn't even close to G3's AP with DJ, when fighting Oven a few chapters later he is stronger than G3 without DJ.

Getting beat up, recovering and fighting all makes you stronger... Luffy got beat up so many times and then becomes stronger...

Enel got beat up, recovered and did a feat way above what he could previously so?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

While fighting Luffy Sanji isn't even close to G3's AP with DJ,

How do you know?

Enel got beat up, recovered and did a feat way above what he could previously so?

With no statement he gets stronger every island or gets stronger...

 

[XDragnoir]

There's no evidence that Luffy's and Sanji's individual accelerated development applies to all haki users.

We literally don't see or have a statement that his haki increased?

Didn't Rayleigh (and Hyogoro as well iirc) confirm that haki gets stronger by battle and things like that, any reason why that wouldn't apply to Enel who is a haki user?

How do you know?

Wadatsumi is/downscales from 2x G2 and Sanji's base was damaging him but not that much, Oven scales way above 4x G2 and Sanji cracked his neck.

With no statement he gets stronger every island or gets stronger...

See above.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Armament isn't the only way to amp a DF

To Amp ap yes.

Law can use his powers against Vergo because his Haki is stronger not because he was applying Buso to his Room afaik

You can mix armament haki and devil fruit... Which makes it stronger... (literally stated in the databook) and enel doesn't have that... What you are saying is head Canon and with no proof at all.

while Enel is already know for mixing his DF and Haki

That's observation haki, which he has and can use... He can't use armament.

just because he isn't aware of how to focus Haki in one spot to create an armor (busoshoku) doesn't mean a big increase to pure haki wouldn't affect him.

Ok sure his pure haki got stronger... HE STILL CANT USE IT TO AMP HIS DEVIL FRUIT

1The ability of the devil fruit and the armed colors combine to create a destructive force!

 

[XDragnoir]

You can mix armament haki and devil fruit... Which makes it stronger... (literally stated in the databook) and enel doesn't have that... What you are saying is head Canon and with no proof at all.

What? How saying Law has stronger Haki than Vergo is headcanon?

That's observation haki, which he has and can use... He can't use armament.

Ok sure his pure haki got stronger... HE STILL CANT USE IT TO AMP HIS DEVIL FRUIT

Pre-TS Straws also don't know how to use it and we see them and their haki getting stronger.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

e-TS Straws also don't know how to use it and we see them and their haki getting stronger.

Ok any proof luffy can use his haki that got stronger?

What? How saying Law has stronger Haki than Vergo is headcanon?

Saying pure haki amps devil fruit is head canon, when it's stated armament haki does that... You do know Armamant/Busōshoku Haki isn't just hardening.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Ayo? Omnipotent Enel

Omnipotent power is beyond the reach of human wisdom. The power of lightning has made everything possible for Enel.

It transcends the living world.

Isn't this implying its one if his most powerful attack? (El Thor)

This is a technique in which the divine judgment arm is transformed into lightning, and lightning strikes from the sky. It was a powerful thunderbolt that shattered the earth and caused Skypia to fear it as divine punishment.

 

[Damage3245]

Isn't this implying its one if his most powerful attack? (El Thor)

No. It says it is "powerful" and people in Skypeia fear it (since that's what he uses to strike them from a range in judgement).

Nothing about that says it is his most powerful attack.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Well I think I translated everyday databook he is in and the vivre card... It doesn't say which is the strongest tho

Here it says nothing about him getting stronger, fighting anyone or training... After he got defeated he just went up to the moon

A man who suddenly appeared eight years ago and took over the title of God of Thunder from Gun Fall. He has the ability to control lightning at will.
the ability to control lightning at will, and a psychic rope that allows him to see the entire island, he has taken control of Skypia.
After a fierce battle with Luffy After his fierce battle with Luffy, he returned to his hometown of Vilca. After the fierce battle with Luffy, it was handed down to his hometown of Vilca, to return to the boundless land of Ark Maku.
(If anyone comes against you
(If anyone confronts him, be it a woman or a child, he will travel to the moon with a ship.
In the moon, he defeated the space pirates.
There is no mercy from God. There is no mercy from God there. You'll find a mural of an ancient city with the same name as your home lying underground. He leads a group of mysterious creatures to form the Enel Corps.

 

[XDragnoir]

Anyway, if the Haki Has Accel Develop point doesn't work, that's fine, but someone needed to bring it up.

Also, how much of a increase are we talking about? I just got here and have no idea what exactly are the values (from Enel's previous feats to Moon Busting).

 

[Eminiteable]

Didn't Rayleigh (and Hyogoro as well iirc) confirm that haki gets stronger by battle and things like that, any reason why that wouldn't apply to Enel who is a haki user?

Yeah their proficiency, so Luffy got future sight and unlocked internal Ryuo.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest; you don't have to get defensive. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

My apologies

What's the valid reason for why you're saying Sanji and Luffy got a 10x multiplier because it suits your scaling?

Enel, who Sanji and Luffy both scale to, is relative in AP to where Sanji and Luffy scale to after the 10x multiplier. Bringing consistency.

There is a gap in scaling between the later tiers of Low 7-B. I want to close that gap

There's no need for accusations of lying Tempest.

The Dials do a lot more internal damage than external damage from the force, which is how even Luffy can be taking damage from them. But in terms of the damage to their actual body, there's not a lot of visible damage.

I'm not saying you're deliberately lying, I said you told a lie. Whether it was accidental or on purpose, whether it was unknown or not, it was false. I'll word it differently next time.

People can still tank the force, noted by Shura saying impact dials wouldn't do anything to him. Also noted by how some people die by using them.

You do sound very rude and heated up Tempest, and I advise you back off and settle down before continuing because you're starting to get like this frequently on One Piece threads.

For the past idk how many threads, this is all I've seen.

Oh this looks wrong in my eyes, so downgrade away

"This ship is in no way, shape, or form 100 meters wide, downgrade it"
"This dude's gravity is definitely not infinite. Even if it's not an outlier, it's wrong. Downgrade it"
"This multiplier is too big. Downgrade it."
"This feat is way too much for these characters. Downgrade it"
"These people can't scale to that people, make them 10000x weaker"
"This island is too big, make it smaller"

And I have so much I want to get implemented and it's getting held up by stuff like this.

I don't get like this at all except recently. Acting as if this is a common occurrence when I've been here for almost a year and barely do this, in OP or out, is wrong.

If we have a regular discussion, idc. I don't bash people for their opinions.

If all I see is "I'm not comfortable with this", and that's taken as an actual argument which people agree with, then I'm not going to be happy with it.

 

[KingTempest]

Can yall stop trying to use Haki amps for devil fruit increases?

And please stop trying to enforce this narrative that that one high value calc is just a feat no one scales to since we have other calcs lower. We've had other consistent calcs around this value that have all been downgraded.

We're not giving Enel a "on the moon" key for no growth.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Anyway, if the Haki Has Accel Develop point doesn't work, that's fine, but someone needed to bring it up.

Just so misinformation doesn't spread or something, here Rayleigh is saying when you use it, it gets stronger in battle...

And even more when facing stronger opponents

 

[Damage3245]

"This ship is in no way, shape, or form 100 meters wide, downgrade it"
"This dude's gravity is definitely not infinite. Even if it's not an outlier, it's wrong. Downgrade it"
"This multiplier is too big. Downgrade it."
"This feat is way too much for these characters. Downgrade it"
"These people can't scale to that people, make them 10000x weaker"
"This island is too big, make it smaller"

I can understand your frustration but consider the opposition is also frequently seeing the opposite of these statements be posted regularly too.

I'm not inherently opposed to upgrades here but I think the methods that you're going about this for some of them are genuinely questionable. You can get anything passed if all you have are Yes Men in the thread (not accusing anyone here, I agree with some upgrades too) so somebody has to be the Devil's Advocate.

At the moment I'm going through the full document of proposals, there's a few other potential issues I think I've found but I'm aware I'm not infallible so I'll be getting a second opinion on those.

And please stop trying to enforce this narrative that that one high value calc is just a feat no one scales to since we have other calcs lower. We've had other consistent calcs around this value that have all been downgraded.

Okay, but please understand that my perspective I frequently see the narrative of "We have a new higher calc available; how can we scale as many characters as possible to it?"

Just because a higher calc exists doesn't mean it has to retroactively applied to everything else. That's the point I was trying to make with the El Thor.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You can get anything passed if all you have are Yes Men in the thread (not accusing anyone here, I agree with some upgrades too) so somebody has to be the Devil's Advocate.

True... But this isn't something I have seen, well in One Piece threads besides maybe 1-2 Randoms. we all know one piece profiles aren't good... at all but when someone like Tempest or someone else makes it a little more accurate which can't get worse than it already is, everyone says I agree, might not be the best option there is but it's better. Almost every One Piece thread they need to 1. Derail 2. Be ignornt 3. Bias against One Piece 4. Trolls. Literally this happens the most in One Piece threads (from what I've seen) which makes literally every One Piece thread get delayed. That's not a good environment to be in.

 

[KingTempest]

I can understand your frustration but consider the opposition is also frequently seeing the opposite of these statements be posted regularly too.

And if that happens then it can be argued against too. "It's too low, upgrade it" that's not good justification either.

I'm not inherently opposed to upgrades here but I think the methods that you're going about this for some of them are genuinely questionable.

I'm using already accepted scaling with new values.

You can get anything passed if all you have are Yes Men in the thread (not accusing anyone here, I agree with some upgrades too) so somebody has to be the Devil's Advocate.

I have no issues with Devil's Advocate.

I have an issue with fallacious arguments being taken as correct, and those being the reasoning for our ratings.

At the moment I'm going through the full document of proposals, there's a few other potential issues I think I've found but I'm aware I'm not infallible so I'll be getting a second opinion on those.

Alright, that's fine

Okay, but please understand that my perspective I frequently see the narrative of "We have a new higher calc available; how can we scale as many characters as possible to it?"

Just because a higher calc exists doesn't mean it has to retroactively applied to everything else. That's the point I was trying to make with the El Thor.

I'm not trying to scale anybody to Enel's feat. I'm using Enel's feat as support and justification for consistency.

We already use this scaling on the profiles, I'm just adding on to it with the new values.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Bump Reminder

​

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me what we need to do here please?

 

[Damage3245]

Can somebody remind me what we need to do here please?

There's a proposal for scaling/rating changes in a document put together by Kobster which I've started going through.

I'm not actually sure if it is finished yet or if there is anything left to do on it, so can somebody let me know if that is the case before I make a big post addressing it?

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

There's a proposal for scaling/rating changes in a document put together by Kobster which I've started going through.

I'm not actually sure if it is finished yet or if there is anything left to do on it, so can somebody let me know if that is the case before I make a big post addressing it?

@KobsterHope07

Can you clarify this please?

 

[Stefano4444]

@KobsterHope07

Can you clarify this please?

The only thing that need to be resolved its if Enel's High 7-C feat should scale to Luffy, Wiper, Zoro and Sanji or not.

Personally, we should simply had the characters at High 7-C by scaling from the Reject Dial.

Reject Dial can release 10 times the strength of a regular Impact Dials, Impact Dials which have been used by Satori to injure Luffy and Arc Sanji, who at that point of the story should be stronger than Pell, who has durability at 23.506 Kilotons due of surviving Crocodile's bomb.

And since Enel's body was still intact by the blast and Wiper only ended up with a broken arm, both should have durability around 235.06 Kilotons.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am not good at evaluating that kind of issue though.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Basically what Stefano said, and also KingTempest said he was going to implement my document into a sandbox, though I heard he was working on something else at the moment so he may be busy to focus on this atm.