Earthbound revisions

[StrymULTRA]

looking in the blog atm I only found blog saying that Ness merged with timeline, but I didn't found scans, quotes or other material in support of this. Could you specify? Thanks in advance.
2) Yeah that's what I basically meant. But I guess that part is when we get to the "Real World" part?

There's a section dedicated to God tiers in blog, and one for Ness too.

 

[Oleggator]

All of this is easily debunked from the fact that to enter Magicant you need a portal (6:20). Aka it's actually a realm separated from the actual universe, as that's how you travel through universes in Earthbound.

So wait. Magicant are parallel dimensions if I get you right, but then again, what proves that destruction of a singular universe what was planned by Gyigas should affect Magicants? Then again there's illusion of city in EB universe which was fit in pantry, so like Magicant being illusion can't exactly contradict. Plus again blog and game states that Magicant is world within own mind.

Argument from ignorance. There's literally a section dedicated to Giygas called as "Giygas" in the blog with all the explanation. Good thing you read it all hm.

All right, if you think I'm ignoring I'll literally quote blog right now:

As explained before, in MOTHER 1 he was sent from his race to destroy the human race due of George's betrayal, with his mere presence making beings violent and aggressive, which range from humans to animals, but even inanimated objects that started to take life and attack people, for example lamps, cars or ropes. Its influence extends to also ghosts, dead bodies making them return as zombies under his influence, and robots despite they don't have a mind, making these categories of beings his servants, due of them never shown to attempt to attack him. And the extent of such was at very least Planetary, since as stated before, it was endangering the whole planet, and Giygas wanted to destroy humankind as well, making such a task impossible without such range. He was also influencing the Magicants, as said before, in both MOTHER 1 and MOTHER 2, giving to his Mind Control ablities Multiversal range, due of him affecting even the Magicant Universes.

I don't see scans which implies that Gyigas created or affected evil beings in magicant.
There's also this:

It was better specified the extend of his abilities. Giygas can also influence Elemental Beings with physical forms made from elements or completely non-corporeal, giant molecules or clouds, and even animate hieroglyphs. Some humans particularly corrupted from Giygas also show a face color different, as purple or green, as shown with Porky, who became Giygas' servant at the end of the game, showing a green face in the fight.

But then again I do not see scans or quotes saying that Gyigas creates or affects evil beings in Magicant. What implies that something like Mr. Molecule or Thunder Mite do not already existed in Magicant since it was stated that Magicant contains evil inside of itself as well?
Next on his article we can see only about him as final boss.

There's a section dedicated to God tiers in blog, and one for Ness too.

I didn't found anything saying Ness "merged with timeline". The only thing I found similar to it is this:

Ness, as said before, completely fuses with the Universe after being powered from Truth, and thus absorbing Magicant, making him a whole living Multiversal structure thanks to the Magicant cosmology.

But it takes us back to previous question that one Magicant doesn't equals to all Magicants. So like, again. Is there a scan/quote specifying that Ness merged with timeline?

 

[Oleggator]

I might will sleep now, just in case if I won't be able to answer that fast as right now.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So wait. Magicant are parallel dimensions if I get you right, but then again, what proves that destruction of a singular universe what was planned by Gyigas should affect Magicants? Then again there's illusion of city in EB universe which was fit in pantry, so like Magicant being illusion can't exactly contradict. Plus again blog and game states that Magicant is world within own mind.

Unlike Moonside, them being literal universes is supported from Monkey Cave statement of "universes as man", which points out at Magicant for the reasons I've already told. Also, under the "After retiring, in MOTHER 2 Giygas returns again as the Universal Cosmic Destroyer, starting to mess up with the inhabitants on the Earth again." part, in the gallery below, is literally stated from Buzz Buzz that Giygas is influencing the evil in people's minds.

I didn't found anything saying Ness "merged with timeline". The only thing I found similar to it is this:
But it takes us back to previous question that one Magicant doesn't equals to all Magicants. So like, again. Is there a scan/quote specifying that Ness merged with timeline?

Ness' destiny became one with the Universe'. And destiny is an omnipresent concept due to ToTU being a thing. Giygas became evil itself, from becoming the evil he was spreading in all the timeline and the Magicants, making Giygas in his Unsealed state an omnipresent concept that is across all the timeline. Ness became an existence comparable to his in order to counter him, so it's not illogical that Ness became one with the timeline.

 

[Oleggator]

Unlike Moonside, them being literal universes is supported from Monkey Cave statement of "universes as man", which points out at Magicant for the reasons I've already told. Also, under the "After retiring, in MOTHER 2 Giygas returns again as the Universal Cosmic Destroyer, starting to mess up with the inhabitants on the Earth again." part, in the gallery below, is literally stated from Buzz Buzz that Giygas is influencing the evil in people's minds.

I mean there's also Mother 1 quote of Magicant being illusion exactly. Not even something that some character stated but stated by exact narrative. So like, 1 narrative's Quote vs 1 character's Quote.
I mean, that's mind hax. So like, if mind haxing a human makes characters uni, or means that character can affect Magicants by destroying one universe then we had someone like Raz already at uni. But then again, Gyigas mind haxing a human doesn't means that evil beings in Magicant are creation of Gyigas, we should remember as pointed out above that Magicant was created under certain circumstances. And like you said by yourself:

I never said that all Magicants exist at the same time. Just that the timeline is big enough to contain all the possible Magicants if everyone had one.

So like, guessing that all evil creatures in Magicant are by Gyigas because mind haxing people that basically don't even have Magicant yet is weird to say the least.

Ness' destiny became one with the Universe'. And destiny is an omnipresent concept due to ToTU being a thing. Giygas became evil itself, from becoming the evil he was spreading in all the timeline and the Magicants, making Giygas in his Unsealed state an omnipresent concept that is across all the timeline. Ness became an existence comparable to his in order to counter him, so it's not illogical that Ness became one with the timeline.

But then there already goes problems.
1. Like said previously evil already existed in Magicant. Nothing implies that enemies we meet in Magicant are creation of Gyigas.
2. Not touching ToTU right now, but like Ness didn't quite beat Gyigas. That's something which is obvious and known by every people completing Earthbound that Gyigas was stronger than Ness and the other members of our famous quartet, and that with everyone's pray or in other words, outside help we defeated Gyigas. Ness technically wasn't even able to do something with Gyigas by himself exactly. So word "comparable" doesn't sound. If he was "comparable" then he technically wouldn't needed in help of EB characters and us altogether.
Also that part of argument is kind of strange:

so it's not illogical that Ness became one with the timeline.

But what says that Ness exactly became one with timeline? Like, maybe it is logical for Ness to become one with timeline but what says that he became that one?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean there's also Mother 1 quote of Magicant being illusion exactly. Not even something that some character stated but stated by exact narrative. So like, 1 narrative's Quote vs 1 character's Quote.
I mean, that's mind hax. So like, if mind haxing a human makes characters uni, or means that character can affect Magicants by destroying one universe then we had someone like Raz already at uni. But then again, Gyigas mind haxing a human doesn't means that evil beings in Magicant are creation of Gyigas, we should remember as pointed out above that Magicant was created under certain circumstances. And like you said by yourself:

An illusion is not always non-existent, you know. Naruto should have teached that. A whole part of the melody, which is real, is in Magicant. Ergo your argument is flawed, and there are more elements supporting mine.

EDIT: Ness absorbing Magicant is also a proof of it being real as well. MOTHER 2 just clarified what Magicant actually is.

So like, guessing that all evil creatures in Magicant are by Gyigas because mind haxing people that basically don't

I mean that the timeline is big enough to contain all the possible Magicants from that statement. And yes, the bird dude which I don't remember the name actively fights the enemies in Magicant, meaning they're not supposed to be there.

But then there already goes problems.
1. Like said previously evil already existed in Magicant. Nothing implies that enemies we meet in Magicant are creation of Gyigas.
2. Not touching ToTU right now, but like Ness didn't quite beat Gyigas. That's something which is obvious and known by every people completing Earthbound that Gyigas was stronger than Ness and the other members of our famous quartet, and that with everyone's pray or in other words, outside help we defeated Gyigas. Ness technically wasn't even able to do something with Gyigas by himself exactly. So word "comparable" doesn't sound. If he was "comparable" then he technically wouldn't needed in help of EB characters and us altogether.
Also that part of argument is kind of strange:

1) Read above.
2) Comparable in existence doesn't mean comparable in power. Lake Trio in Pokémon is AE1, Omnipresent and has CM1 because of their existence being comparable to Creation Trio, despite being way weaker. Ness became an existence equal to Giygas in state, not power. It merged with the destiny of the Timeline and gained the ultimate knowledge about it to support said notion. He's weaker than Giygas but is equal in state of existence as him.

But what says that Ness exactly became one with timeline? Like, maybe it is logical for Ness to become one with timeline but what says that he became that one?

The fact that Giygas was already affecting all the Magicants and became the evil which he was SPREADING, not creating. Giygas stopped bringing evil from amplifying it, but instead he became that evil, meaning that he indeed became the evil across the timeline. Ness gained the Ultimate Knowledge from Magicant, meaning he knows more than just the main universe and became an abstract being like Giygas to counter him.

 

[SMASHssf2]

And yes, the bird dude which I don't remember the name

Flying Man

 

[Oleggator]

An illusion is not always non-existent, you know. Naruto should have teached that. A whole part of the melody, which is real, is in Magicant. Ergo your argument is flawed, and there are more elements supporting mine.

And I didn't watched Naruto either.
However you are implied that the fact that Ninten got into Magicant - a big open world, inside of the cave is a proof that Magicant exists as parallel dimension, however moonside proofs that illusions, real or unreal can be fit in small locations (such as the cave). In support of narrative, blog and Earthbound tells that Magicant is world of own mind, so what makes me assume it's not something like this but instead it exists somewhere else even though it is stated as realm of own mind. But ok, I can consider Magicant as exactly parallel dimension, then Gyigas point about mind hax is weak cause like, then affecting someone's mind even if does something to Magicant itself then that counts as side effect, with consideration of the point below.

EDIT: Ness absorbing Magicant is also a proof of it being real as well. MOTHER 2 just clarified what Magicant actually is.

I mean that the timeline is big enough to contain all the possible Magicants from that statement. And yes, the bird dude which I don't remember the name actively fights the enemies in Magicant, meaning they're not supposed to be there.

Flying Man, his name is flying man. But like, again it is stated that evil exists in the world of Magicant, flying man represents courage. Like, flying man doesn't actively flights enemies either, it helps and defend us from the enemies we encounter, if enemies were attacking living persons in Magicant we probably would encounter them in part where they're not supposed to be, aka "good part" of Magicant. But in plot they were in place where belonged, like, again it doesn't implies that Gyigas put evil creatures.

1) Read above.
2) Comparable in existence doesn't mean comparable in power. Lake Trio in Pokémon is AE1, Omnipresent and has CM1 because of their existence being comparable to Creation Trio, despite being way weaker. Ness became an existence equal to Giygas in state, not power. It merged with the destiny of the Timeline and gained the ultimate knowledge about it to support said notion. He's weaker than Giygas but is equal in state of existence as him.

The fact that Giygas was already affecting all the Magicants and became the evil which he was SPREADING, not creating. Giygas stopped bringing evil from amplifying it, but instead he became that evil, meaning that he indeed became the evil across the timeline. Ness gained the Ultimate Knowledge from Magicant, meaning he knows more than just the main universe and became an abstract being like Giygas to counter him.

1) I've read, question is still there.
2) I mean, Poo for instance could affect Gyigas with Braonshock. Jeff could use bazooka and it's actually could harm Gyigas. Pray mostly harmed and pretty much destroyed Gyigas. Basically what's mine point? If Ness became equal in state how is that helped against Gyigas then? Like how is that supposed to help us isn't like the point of Magicant arc is to exactly give us the power boost.

Again, how mind control = affection of parallel dimensions? Then those dimensions are no longer parallel but exists in own mind, affection of Magicant is again questionable, like said previously evil already exists in Magicant, and like said previously it requires specific conditions to create Magicant at all. You may considered that "timeline" can contain Magicant and I guess considering it as "inside" of universe instead of just being the parallel universe, but like no one except for Ness basically had Magicant, and even then mind haxing should be equal as side effect cause Magicant itself is basically representation of person's mind.

Flying Man

Also hello SMASHssf2, haven't seen you for awhile.

But alright, now I need to sleep and I'll probably go to do so.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And I didn't watched Naruto either.
However you are implied that the fact that Ninten got into Magicant - a big open world, inside of the cave is a proof that Magicant exists as parallel dimension, however moonside proofs that illusions, real or unreal can be fit in small locations (such as the cave). In support of narrative, blog and Earthbound tells that Magicant is world of own mind, so what makes me assume it's not something like this but instead it exists somewhere else even though it is stated as realm of own mind. But ok, I can consider Magicant as exactly parallel dimension, then Gyigas point about mind hax is weak cause like, then affecting someone's mind even if does something to Magicant itself then that counts as side effect, with consideration of the point below.

Different verse = Different context for one. I said "within" to point that Magicant is linked with person's mind, but if you opened the link, you know that is DIRECTLY stated IN THE GAME to be the realm OF your mind.

I mean, Poo for instance could affect Gyigas with Braonshock. Jeff could use bazooka and it's actually could harm Gyigas. Pray mostly harmed and pretty much destroyed Gyigas. Basically what's mine point? If Ness became equal in state how is that helped against Gyigas then? Like how is that supposed to help us isn't like the point of Magicant arc is to exactly give us the power boost.

Obvious outlier for the team sans Ness, given even in stats Ness became enormously stronger than them and they didn't passed what Ness did.

Again, how mind control = affection of parallel dimensions? Then those dimensions are no longer parallel but exists in own mind, affection of Magicant is again questionable, like said previously evil already exists in Magicant, and like said previously it requires specific conditions to create Magicant at all. You may considered that "timeline" can contain Magicant and I guess considering it as "inside" of universe instead of just being the parallel universe, but like no one except for Ness basically had Magicant, and even then mind haxing should be equal as side effect cause Magicant itself is basically representation of person's mind.

First, stop stonewalling with the whole "but is only in your head" headcanon which relies on association with another verse. It's even contradicted from the Monkey Cave statement. Second, Mind Hax can be that good in fiction. Third, I don't know what are you exactly trying to contradict here. Giygas was influencing even what's inside Magicant from awakening the evil part. Flying Man was attacking them and even died when the HPs were gone, meaning that he was fighting against them to the death. And yeah, said enemies are exactly potrayed as the animals which "were becoming violent coz Giygas", so I don't know why are you against this notion except your useless being nitpicking.

 

[Oleggator]

Different verse = Different context for one. I said "within" to point that Magicant is linked with person's mind, but if you opened the link, you know that is DIRECTLY stated IN THE GAME to be the realm OF your mind.

Then this further implies that even if evil creatures are made by Gyigas, and it made exactly via mind haxing a human, then it's side effect. Since like you said:

I said "within" to point that Magicant is linked with person's mind.

Obvious outlier for the team sans Ness, given even in stats Ness became enormously stronger than them and they didn't passed what Ness did.

Haha, he said Sans. But seriously though we got power boost, what implies that Ness literally became a universe even though he is like, a boy.
I even reread blog again but I didn't found any link saying Ness fused with universe. Touched "ToTU"? Yeah that arguably happened. Absorbed Magicant? Yes this happened but what implies that he fused with universe?
Or maybe this:

Heavily implied to use avatars due of the true form being developed in Magicant, with the main body still being in the "main universe", meaning that Ness uses his physical body as avatar to interact with the timeline.

With link to saying that Ness absorbed Magicant and power of the land and that's basically it. I do not getting your points.

First, stop stonewalling with the whole "but is only in your head" headcanon which relies on association with another verse. It's even contradicted from the Monkey Cave statement. Second, Mind Hax can be that good in fiction. Third, I don't know what are you exactly trying to contradict here. Giygas was influencing even what's inside Magicant from awakening the evil part. Flying Man was attacking them and even died when the HPs were gone, meaning that he was fighting against them to the death. And yeah, said enemies are exactly potrayed as the animals which "were becoming violent coz Giygas", so I don't know why are you against this notion except your useless being nitpicking.

1. Which relies on narrative statement of Mother 1 in a first place, but ok.
2. How "that strong"? To the point of creating enemies in parallel dimension?
The problem is that he mind haxed a human. If mind haxing a human equalises to be a treat for universes. Like you said, person and Magicant have a link, so again even if Gyigas is the one who created enemies, ignoring the fact that evil is already exists in Magicant, it can be just a side effect of mind hax, there's nothing against it. By that logic then killing a human in Earthbound is uni cause death of human should be equal to destruction of Magicant.
3. Because enemies do not attacked Magicant? Those creatures just exists and only our enemies when we visit their territory. A territory which was, is and will belong to them, because Magicant does not contains only good. We are fighting against evil in our Magicant to destroy our nightmare, not evil flights us and trying to destroy Magicant. Again, nothing implies that existence of evil is because of Gyigas cause it was already stated that Magicant contains evil as well, because the only thing you have for that assumption is the fact that they're enemies and that's it.
And even if it is because of Gyigas, the way you are implying it is nothing more than a side effect, because let me repeat you: "Mind hax" + "Magicant is linked to human's mind".
If you're saying Gyigas literally created those enemies, basically right at the moment Magicant was created at all then that's already not because of mind hax and again, nothing says that Gyigas is responsible for this.

At this point argument is actually seems that killing a human = uni level+.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You did really miss the point hm...

Then this further implies that even if evil creatures are made by Gyigas, and it made exactly via mind haxing a human, then it's side effect. Since like you said

...oh my God, are you really THIS MUCH of a nitpicky? Burden of proof is on you to prove you'd need to mind hax the human to affect the Magicant, especially when Ness wasn't haxed, but his Magicant was affected anyway. Giygas directly affected Magicant without messing with Ness first. That's it.

I even reread blog again but I didn't found any link saying Ness fused with universe. Touched "ToTU"? Yeah that arguably happened. Absorbed Magicant? Yes this happened but what implies that he fused with universe?
Or maybe this:
With link to saying that Ness absorbed Magicant and power of the land and that's basically it. I do not getting your points.

Of course you do not. I already explained the whole "becoming the destiny" thing.

1. Which relies on narrative statement of Mother 1 in a first place, but ok.

And?

2. How "that strong"? To the point of creating enemies in parallel dimension?

To affect stuff in a parallel dimension, given he literally was the reason Ness couldn't touch ToTU inside Magicant.

2. How "that strong"? To the point of creating enemies in parallel dimension?
The problem is that he mind haxed a human. If mind haxing a human equalises to be a treat for universes. Like you said, person and Magicant have a link, so again even if Gyigas is the one who created enemies, ignoring the fact that evil is already exists in Magicant, it can be just a side effect of mind hax, there's nothing against it. By that logic then killing a human in Earthbound is uni cause death of human should be equal to destruction of Magicant.

HE. *******. DIDN'T. MIND HAX. A HUMAN. TO. AFFECT. MAGICANT. CHRIST. I'm seriously losing my tone from explaining for another time, so try to understand this time. His power was to affect stuff to Magicant, despite was another universe. That's it.

3. Because enemies do not attacked Magicant? Those creatures just exists and only our enemies when we visit their territory. A territory which was, is and will belong to them, because Magicant does not contains only good. We are fighting against evil in our Magicant to destroy our nightmare, not evil flights us and trying to destroy Magicant. Again, nothing implies that existence of evil is because of Gyigas cause it was already stated that Magicant contains evil as well, because the only thing you have for that assumption is the fact that they're enemies and that's it.

Evil which was amped from Giygas, given his influence over the evil*

If you're saying Gyigas literally created those enemies, basically right at the moment Magicant was created at all then that's already not because of mind hax and again, nothing says that Gyigas is responsible for this.

At this point argument is actually seems that killing a human = uni level+.

I don't know if the amount of bias you have against Earthbound doesn't let you understand. I'm not ******* saying that. He didn't mind hax Ness, but his Magicant was still affected. Same with Maria. And "your narrative statement" is not a reason to take over a whole clarification made through the whole sequel, my dear.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, can both sides please take a chill pill? It's really hard for me to type without crashing via using a grossly out of date hardware laptop.

But Styrm has a look of neat stuff in his blog that seem to make a lot of sense.

 

[Oleggator]

...oh my God, are you really THIS MUCH of a nitpicky? Burden of proof is on you to prove you'd need to mind hax the human to affect the Magicant, especially when Ness wasn't haxed, but his Magicant was affected anyway. Giygas directly affected Magicant without messing with Ness first. That's it..

Previously (or at least now) assumed that Ness was slightly affected by mind hax, especially when he can't resist confusion and needs a special pendant, from a beings weaker than Gyigas.

Of course you do not. I already explained the whole "becoming the destiny" thing.

Of course I'm not and...?
This?

Ness' destiny became one with the Universe'

Scans, what says that "destiny" became one with the universe and how this turned Ness into literal universe?
Or this?

And destiny is an omnipresent concept due to ToTU being a thing.

What says that destiny is a omnipresent thing? ToTU? The thing which Ness just touched not absorbed?

And?

Nothing but correction of point.

To affect stuff in a parallel dimension, given he literally was the reason Ness couldn't touch ToTU inside Magicant.

So you're saying that instead of evil being evil and just attacking us in general, Gyigas is the one who somehow made beings flight simply because they're our enemies?

HE. *******. DIDN'T. MIND HAX. A HUMAN. TO. AFFECT. MAGICANT. CHRIST. I'm seriously losing my tone from explaining for another time, so try to understand this time. His power was to affect stuff to Magicant, despite was another universe. That's it.

But again, the evil stuff already existed in a first place, without Gyigas. How are you trying to assume, that Gyigas is the one who responsible?

Evil which was amped from Giygas, given his influence over the evil*

Which influenced enemies outside of Magicant. What makes assume he did that inside of Magicant if the enemies are already evil? For which the only answer I'm apparently getting is "they're enemies".

I don't know if the amount of bias you have against Earthbound doesn't let you understand. I'm not ******* saying that. He didn't mind hax Ness, but his Magicant was still affected. Same with Maria. And "your narrative statement" is not a reason to take over a whole clarification made through the whole sequel, my dear.

So what is implying that destruction of one universe should count as multiversal, especially when there's no Magicants at all? Even then you're saying by yourself that Magicant exists as parallel universe and that Gyigas's range somehow reaches to Magicant for mind hax.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Previously (or at least now) assumed that Ness was slightly affected by mind hax, especially when he can't resist confusion and needs a special pendant, from a beings weaker than Gyigas.

You do know what game mechanics are? Ness wasn't affected from all the journey due to him and the others being Chosen Ones, which are designed to beat Giygas IN LORE.

Of course I'm not and...?
This?
Scans, what says that "destiny" became one with the universe and how this turned Ness into literal universe?
Or this?
What says that destiny is a omnipresent thing? ToTU? The thing which Ness just touched not absorbed?

For first, it was stated that Ness was about to become one with the destiny, which is synonym with fate. Second, Ness is argued at Tier 1 because Sea of Eden contains an actual fraction of ToTU, which is the reason why Ness can touch it. There's a reason why "Magicant is no more" after that Ness absorbed stuff, you know.

But again, the evil stuff already existed in a first place, without Gyigas. How are you trying to assume, that Gyigas is the one who responsible?
Which influenced enemies outside of Magicant. What makes assume he did that inside of Magicant if the enemies are already evil? For which the only answer I'm apparently getting is "they're enemies".

You're blatantly just ignoring arguments for the sake of your headcanon. Giygas amped the evil of said characters making them aggressive, heck, stuff that shouldn't even be alive like lamps attacks you, so the burden of proof is on you to say that these enemies weren't attacking because of Giygas, given that's the whole premise of the game.

So what is implying that destruction of one universe should count as multiversal, especially when there's no Magicants at all?

I said OF THE TIMELINE, not Universe. The timeline is 2-B sized as it can contain not just the main universe, but even all the possible Magicants if everyone had one at the same time. And yes, a character is 2-A because of him being able to destroy a place which is infinitely bigger than the 2-B multiverse it contains, only reason why is possibly is due to WoG validity.

Even then you're saying by yourself that Magicant exists as parallel universe and that Gyigas's range somehow reaches to Magicant for mind hax.

Yup, because his influence reaches even there like he did with the Earth in the first game. And Giygas in his Unsealed form is an abstract because he stopped from just spreading evil with said influence, but he became said influence itself, and thus Omnipresent.

 

[Oleggator]

You do know what game mechanics are? Ness wasn't affected from all the journey due to him and the others being Chosen Ones, which are designed to beat Giygas IN LORE.

Yes and I do know that game mechanic apparently is the argument towards Ness's fate hax in the blog(as well as it was argument for his previous "Time stop resistance"). Though there's also the fact that far from anyone on earth was affected by Gyigas, from Ness's family to many civilians.

For first, it was stated that Ness was about to become one with the destiny, which is synonym with fate. Second, Ness is argued at Tier 1 because Sea of Eden contains an actual fraction of ToTU, which is the reason why Ness can touch it. There's a reason why "Magicant is no more" after that Ness absorbed stuff, you know.

1. And what makes me assume to take this literally?
2. Was touched by previous argument as far as I'm aware:

Ness only touches the Truth, he absorbed Magicent but not Truth (if it is stated he absorbed the Truth as well please provide scans), Magicant does not scale to the Truth of the Universe just because it resides there.

Then again what should say that Ness literally is a universe and not 12 years old boy?

You're blatantly just ignoring arguments for the sake of your headcanon. Giygas amped the evil of said characters making them aggressive, heck, stuff that shouldn't even be alive like lamps attacks you, so the burden of proof is on you to say that these enemies weren't attacking because of Giygas, given that's the whole premise of the game.

Again, Magicant is stated to have evil already. Lamp attacking you should be possession, not mind hax, not just cause lamp is something not alive, it's literally an inanimate object. Plus Ness fought cops which was not something that Gyigas made but just a test of Ness being able to stand for himself.

I said OF THE TIMELINE, not Universe. The timeline is 2-B sized as it can contain not just the main universe, but even all the possible Magicants if everyone had one at the same time. And yes, a character is 2-A because of him being able to destroy a place which is infinitely bigger than the 2-B multiverse it contains, only reason why is possibly is due to WoG validity.

You said timeline, game said universe, if you can repeat then show again what exactly shows Gyigas destroying exactly the timeline and not the universe, which is severely implied.

Yup, because his influence reaches even there like he did with the Earth in the first game. And Giygas in his Unsealed form is an abstract because he stopped from just spreading evil with said influence, but he became said influence itself, and thus Omnipresent.

So how range of mind hax, even if we assume he somehow reached Magicant should affect the fact that Gyigas was about to destroy just a universe?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes and I do know that game mechanic apparently is the argument towards Ness's fate hax in the blog(as well as it was argument for his previous "Time stop resistance"). Though there's also the fact that far from anyone on earth was affected by Gyigas, from Ness's

Fate hax in the blog is well explain. Have no idea why Time Stop resistance should, on TSW is listed as limited as they can just see and dodge stuff in it like Jotaro did before unlocking Time Stop.

1. And what makes me assume to take this literally?
2. Was touched by previous argument as far as I'm aware:

1) The lack of counter evidence.
2) You didn't. You just ignored it for the sake of your interpretation.

Again, Magicant is stated to have evil already.

Evil amped from Giygas*

Lamp attacking you should be possession, not mind hax, not just cause lamp is something not alive, it's literally an inanimate object.

It's still his influence. And he has possession included in his mind hax.

Plus Ness fought cops which was not something that Gyigas made but just a test of Ness being able to stand for himself.

How is that relevant. The cops were fighting Ness, but not for the reason the dudes affected from Giygas do.

Then again what should say that Ness literally is a universe and not 12 years old boy?

Because he literally became the destiny itself and reached a state comparable to Giygas.

You said timeline, game said universe, if you can repeat then show again what exactly shows Gyigas destroying exactly the timeline and not the universe, which is severely implied.

You do know that fictions can call "universe" even Multiversal cosmologies? Even in DBS case sometimes.

So how range of mind hax, even if we assume he somehow reached Magicant should affect the fact that Gyigas was about to destroy just a universe?

Read above.

Anyway, this is becoming circular as hell.

Snip

Anyway, thoughts on the profiles?

I've already called Migue and Amelia to comment here, as they're listed as supporters. I might call Ultima too given the situation.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Agree with Strym here.

I haven't played the game, but from reading the entire thread I gathered this:-

Universe is synonymous with timeline, especially if its called space-time or associated with timeline in context. 2B size makes sense for timeline considering IF everyone had a magicant active the timeline would still be big enough to contain it all. So its by default able to contain 6Billion to 7Billion magicants due to population of mankind.

@Oleggator
Fate/Destiny is an inherent mechanic of ANY universe. Its inherently tied with flow of time. Its present everywhere and everywhen.

If someone becomes one with Fate/Destiny they automatically become one with the whole universe. But two different entities can have different powerlvls even with same lvl of Omnipresence, which seems to be the case here with Giygas and Ness.

Atleast thats the main gist I gathered from this debate. Correct me if I am wrong somewhere.

 

[Oleggator]

Fate hax in the blog is well explain. Have no idea why Time Stop resistance should, on TSW is listed as limited as they can just see and dodge stuff in it like Jotaro did before unlocking Time Stop.

Fate hax in profile and blog tells that "truth" apparently reverses time so there's no lost, quoting blog:

For Ness, the defeat was nothing than a bad dream, making it never happened in the first place.

And this applies to also other characters of the main cast, as Ninten, Jeff, Flint, Salsa, Duster or Lucas.

However we are losing items if we are losing battles in Mother series and in Mother 3 was even a statement which implies that the defeat indeed happen in the game if we will try to go to the last checkpoint. Or what, truth "revives" Ness even though characters do not die exactly?

1) The lack of counter evidence.
2) You didn't. You just ignored it for the sake of your interpretation.

1) So basically the fact that it wasn't tried to be countered means that quote couldn't be flowery language?
2) What I didn't?
Like, again the question:

Evil amped from Giygas*

No. Just evil. Not evil from Gyigas, but evil which already existed from Ness himself. Again nothing says Gyigas AMPd evil, and mentioned below cops are proof that using simply the fact that characters our enemies is not the proof Gyigas is the one who is responsible.

How is that relevant. The cops were fighting Ness, but not for the reason the dudes affected from Giygas do.

Because your entire point of the fact that evil enemies are made from Gyigas is just because they're enemies, which is wrong.

Because he literally became the destiny itself and reached a state comparable to Giygas.

Which is from that "universal system" quote? Again, same question, how this is can't be flowery language?

You do know that fictions can call "universe" even Multiversal cosmologies? Even in DBS case sometimes.

Again, there's one universe which is outside of Magicants. How destruction of that single universe should affect Magicants? Even if we assume that Gyigas was somehow supposed to destroy a "space" to which Magicant should fit, how that supposed to destroy something that doesn't exists? Hypothetically, off topic question could be why you didn't counted animals and/or aliens who also have an intellect/mind.

Read above.

I've read above, don't see a point.

Anyway, this is becoming circular as hell.

I mean, I could also start to talk about the player and the fact that it's simply RL-fiction interaction.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Fate hax in profile and blog tells that "truth" apparently reverses time so there's no lost, quoting blog:
However we are losing items if we are losing battles in Mother series and in Mother 3 was even a statement which implies that the defeat indeed happen in the game if we will try to go to the last checkpoint. Or what, truth "revives" Ness even though characters do not die exactly?

It says defeat dude, not death. And losing items is kinda of a game mechanics if you wonder.

1) So basically the fact that it wasn't tried to be countered means that quote couldn't be flowery language?

Prove it being flowery.

No. Just evil. Not evil from Gyigas, but evil which already existed from Ness himself. Again nothing says Gyigas AMPd evil, and mentioned below cops are proof that using simply the fact that characters our enemies is not the proof Gyigas is the one who is responsible.

Buzz Buzz stated that Giygas has influence on the evil that is already on the characters, ergo it amps said evil. Cops are not related as they have a their reasoning to attack Ness and not being randomly aggressive.

Because your entire point of the fact that evil enemies are made from Gyigas is just because they're enemies, which is wrong.

You're contradicting Buzz Buzz statement because...?

Again, there's one universe which is outside of Magicants. How destruction of that single universe should affect Magicants? Even if we assume that Gyigas was somehow supposed to destroy a "space" to which Magicant should fit, how that supposed to destroy something that doesn't exists? Hypothetically, off topic question could be why you didn't counted animals and/or aliens who also have an intellect/mind.

I'm saying the whole space that contains both the main universe and magicants. Stop spamming debunked arguments. I didn't count Aliens and Animals as they're kinda too obvious.

 

[Oleggator]

It says defeat dude, not death. And losing items is kinda of a game mechanics if you wonder.

I mentioned death in case you'll try to say characters in Earthbound literally are dying while they're not in tact.
So losing items is a game mechanic but game reset is not? Especially when some character's defeats canonically happened during Earthbound and Mother 3.

Prove it being flowery.

Prove it being non flowery.
Seriously though, what proves this statement being literal, instead of being literature interpretation?

Buzz Buzz stated that Giygas has influence on the evil that is already on the characters, ergo it amps said evil. Cops are not related as they have a their reasoning to attack Ness and not being randomly aggressive.

You're contradicting Buzz Buzz statement because...?

Oh so now you're mentioning Buzz Buzz instead of doing so previously.
Let's see what we have.

Humans and animals are affected, and enemies are sent to stop us.

Where does buzz buzz says he AMPs evil beings?
Or you probably meant the last part of Buzz Buzz's quote.

Due to Gyigas' influence over the evil in their minds.

If yes then that will take us go back into assumption that if evil stuff is created by Gyigas in Magicant then it's side effect from mind hax exactly.

I'm saying the whole space that contains both the main universe and magicants. Stop spamming debunked arguments. I didn't count Aliens and Animals as they're kinda too obvious.

However what says that Gyigas destroys the whole space and not just main universe. How destruction of that single universe should affect Magicants? And what do you mean by Aliens and Animals being obvious?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mentioned death in case you'll try to say characters in Earthbound literally are dying while they're not in tact.
So losing items is a game mechanic but game reset is not? Especially when some character's defeats canonically happened during Earthbound and Mother 3.

In lore them being protected is a fact even supported from statements. And the characters who died weren't Chosen Ones, so try again.

If yes then that will take us go back into assumption that if evil stuff is created by Gyigas in Magicant then it's side effect from mind hax exactly.

So you indirectly concede it was from Giygas influence anyway and that it reached Magicant.

Prove it being non flowery.
Seriously though, what proves this statement being literal, instead of being literature interpretation?

1) Lack of contradictions.
2) Ness needing said boost to face Giygas, who is an omnipresent abstract entity too.

The yours is reverse burden of proof.

However what says that Gyigas destroys the whole space and not just main universe. How destruction of that single universe should affect Magicants? And what do you mean by Aliens and Animals being obvious?

The fact that Giygas became the evil across both universe and Magicants, and thus was about to destroy these and not just influencing them anymore. And the obvious thing is that they were influenced from Giygas in attacking you.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

However what says that Gyigas destroys the whole space and not just main universe. How destruction of that single universe should affect Magicants? And what do you mean by Aliens and Animals being obvious?

Size of timeline is 2B already....empty or not.
So its destruction is 2B.

 

[Ailamiona]

Disagree with these revisions

 

[StrymULTRA]

Disagree with these revisions

Uhm... Which ones?

 

[Oleggator]

In lore them being protected is a fact even supported from statements. And the characters who died weren't Chosen Ones, so try again.

Trying again, what exactly you're trying to imply by the "protection"? In other words try to explain it step by step(for instance, GER: 1. You attack
2. GER reverts your actions to the point when you started attack
3. GER attacks). That should at least simplify some stuff.

So you indirectly concede it was from Giygas influence anyway and that it reached Magicant.

Didn't you previously said where I was conceding this in this form, that the way was my "headcanon"?

1) Lack of contradictions.
2) Ness needing said boost to face Giygas, who is an omnipresent abstract entity too.

1) So you're basically saying absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?
2) Ness got stat boost, not turning into living universe which didn't helped against Gyigas overall. Like, let me put this more understandable. Why Ness needed to turn into universe, if it did not helped against Gyigas?

The fact that Giygas became the evil across both universe and Magicants, and thus was about to destroy these and not just influencing them anymore. And the obvious thing is that they were influenced from Giygas in attacking you.

So you're trying to say that Gyigas becoming concept of evil means that he is that concept across the universe and Magicants which do not yet exists(?)

Size of timeline is 2B already....empty or not.
So its destruction is 2B.

That's good for explaination thx, but the question is still about how exactly Gyigas destroying one universe will affect Magicants or something that exists outside of main universe.

 

[Ailamiona]

Uhm... Which ones?

Changing the Ness and Giygas pages, I don't want to read this whole debate
Though from what I did read of it, I agree with you

 

[Oleggator]

Changing the Ness and Giygas pages, I don't want to read this whole debate
Though from what I did read of it, I agree with you

But StrymUltra is exactly for change of pages.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Trying again, what exactly you're trying to imply by the "protection"? In other words try to explain it step by step(for instance, GER: 1. You attack
2. GER reverts your actions to the point when you started attack
3. GER attacks). That should at least simplify some stuff.

Choosen Ones fail, ToTU rewrites the failure, they return to the point they were before the failure, trying again.

Didn't you previously said where I was conceding this in this form, that the way was my "headcanon"?

You did admit it was Giygas in the end was affecting these.

1) So you're basically saying absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?
2) Ness got stat boost, not turning into living universe which didn't helped against Gyigas overall. Like, let me put this more understandable. Why Ness needed to turn into universe, if it did not helped against Gyigas?

1) Yes. There are not evidences against my notion.

2) Ness got stat boost, not turning into living universe which didn't helped against Gyigas overall. Like, let me put this more understandable. Why Ness needed to turn into universe, if it did not helped against Gyigas

Not turning in universe.

If you mean that he's still a playable body, that's Avatar. He's basically the same as Pokémon 2-As. Not directly stated to be omnipresent abstracts that use Avatars to interact with the world, and we saw only said Avatars, but we know they are due of statements. And yeah, it did help a bit, given that Giygas didn't immediately destroy everything due to Ness influence. This "he can't be abstract and Omnipresent coz it didn't help" doesn't mean nothing, Uxie is AE1 and Omnipresent due to being relative to Dialga despite being much, much weaker, same is Ness with Giygas.

So you're trying to say that Gyigas becoming concept of evil means that he is that concept across the universe and Magicants which do not yet exists(?)
That's good for explaination thx, but the question is still about how exactly Gyigas destroying one universe will affect Magicants or something that exists outside of main universe.

Giver already explained. And again... He WAS AFFECTING/DESTROYING THE WHOLE FREAKING TIMELINE IN THE GAMES, NOT JUST THE MAIN UNIVERSE. Your stubbornness is ridiculous.

 

[Ailamiona]

But StrymUltra is exactly for change of pages.

URAAAAGGHHH WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BE A MINDLESS SHEEP

 

[StrymULTRA]

URAAAAGGHHH WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BE A MINDLESS SHEEP

Bruh.

 

[Bobsican]

TBH @Oleggator appears at this point to be doing extreme nitpicks for the sake of keeping a point, so I agree with Strym's points as they don't require leaps on logic and use less assumptions.

 

[Luckyfun]

Bump

 

[Luckyfun]

Bump

 

[Psychomaster35]

As per usual, I agree with this

 

[StrymULTRA]

As per usual, I agree with this

Nice. What about the abilities? Are those good too along with the new tiering?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Nice. What about the abilities? Are those good too along with the new tiering?

Yes

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes

Well, there are the calcs used on TSW.

Check only the 2, 4 and 6, others are not compatible with this wiki or are rejected.

5th is already used here.

About the rest, let's talk about the calcs currently used here besides the Oak one.

The Thunder and Storm feat, other than not being approved, doesn't respect VBW's rules of instability, other than being only hax, and doesn't damage anything.

This instead, for Giygas, is a mess. It's not accepted as well, and doesn't follow the rules, other than being based on a really inconsistent map. But worry not, we can still use the Low 7-B result, given it's implied to have created a storm.



If you're fine with these calcs being removed, and with the TSW ones that I listed being used, I'll make a blog for it on VBW with the 3 feats.

 

[QuasiYuri]

agree

 

[RM97]

Agreed with the upgrades proposed by StrymULTRA

 

[SMASHssf2]

Agree as well