Earthbound/Mother Discussion Thread

[Kellex]

​

Welcome to the Earthbound/Mother Discussion Thread!​

I made this thread to talk bout powerscaling, abilities, feats, calcs and such, but you can also just talk about anything related to the series!

Right now, I'm planning to make some changes for Earthbound profiles first, Mother 3 profiles second, and then maybe Earthbound Beginnings last cause I've never played it.

SO yeah, go ahead and discuss!​

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

First message, whoo

1. Ness, Giygas, and Dark Dragon should be 2-B. We even made a blog.

2. Also, I’m thinking about upgrading the characters from Town level to City level on a future Calc. There’s probably still evidence EarthBound could be Low 1-C still, might not be the best evidence maybe.

3. EarthBound’s Magicant is a conceptual realm?

4. Giygas (Sealed and Unsealed Keys) should be 2-C, likely 2-B due to being able to attack across time and spread his influence across time. These “times and spaces” are treated as universes, and I still believe the verse should be solidly 2-B based on this scan. Giygas should also scale to the Dark Dragon, Thanks to this scan. Even the page says “His evil able to spread its influence from both the past and the future”

 

[Kellex]

1. Ness, Giygas, and Dark Dragon should be 2-A. We even made a blog.

I'm still very iffy on this, but we'll see how it goes

4. Giygas (Sealed and Unsealed Keys) should be 2-C, likely 2-B due to being able to attack across time and spread his influence across time. These “times and spaces” are treated as universes, and I still believe the verse should be solidly 2-B based on this scan. Giygas should also scale to the Dark Dragon, Thanks to this scan. Even the page says “His evil able to spread its influence from both the past and the future”

Hmm? Some of your links are broken.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

I'm still very iffy on this, but we'll see how it goes

Okay!

Hmm? Some of your links are broken.

Aw man.. couldn’t find it

 

[Kellex]

Aw man.. couldn’t find it

It just needs a url fix cause I found it. Actually, it seems like most of the links in EB profiles need to be fixed.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

It just needs a url fix cause I found it. Actually, it seems like most of the links in EB profiles need to be fixed.

Definitely

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

I wonder if they’re any scans that gets Lucas to Low 2-C, or at least with Hax

 

[Kellex]

I wonder if they’re any scans that gets Lucas to Low 2-C, or at least with Hax

Nah, Lucas has nothing like in Mother 3 that unfortunately. The only tier 2 in the game is the Dark Dragon and the Absolutely Safe Capsule (for durability at least).

 

[Kellex]

Also speaking of blogs: I was gonna keep it hidden, but I've also made some sandboxes for Ness and Paula. They're not entirely finished yet, so do expect more info added into it.

Spoiler: Ness Sandbox

Old profile
New profile

• Added and corrected abilities:
  • Zoolingualism (Ness can understand and talk with animals.)
  • Weapon Mastery (Primarily uses baseball bats to attack. Can somewhat use slingshots and yo-yos)
  • Limited Teleportation (Via Teleport α. Requires room and a build up of speed first. Can teleport his friends along with him.)
  • Limited Forcefield and Attack Reflection/Reduction (Can create shields to reduce or reflect half of the physical and some non-PSI energy damage back to the opponent)
  • Enhanced Teleportation (Learned Teleport β after absorbing Magicant. Comparable if not superior to Poo, who teleported out of this room)
  • Inorganic Physiology and Immortality (Both Type 1. Dr. Andonuts transferred the souls of Ness and his friends into robots in order to travel to the past with the Phase Distorter 3, which can demolish lifeforms)
• Some layout changes like the P&A and equipment
• Added additional info in weaknesses and notable attacks
• More that I don't remember...

Spoiler: Paula

Old profile
New profile

• Added/corrected abilities:
  • Precognition/Clairvoyance (Non-Combat Applicable. Before the start of Earthbound, Paula foresaw her meeting with a boy named Ness and knew her destiny after. Had a premonition saying she and her friends need to go back to Threed in order to get to Summers)
  • Extrasensory Perception (Was able to sense Dr. Andounts location despite being in a different country)
  • Ice Manipulation (PK Freeze targets a single enemy with a chance of freezing them in place)
  • Fire Manipulation (PK Fire targets a single row of enemies)
  • Electricity Manipulation and Forcefield Negation (PK Thunder targets a random opponent with chances to miss or strike. Paula's highest amount being 3 with PK Thunder Sigma and its accuracy becomes better when there are more enemies in the battle. A single strike is able to destroy psychic forcefields that have been put up.)
  • Power Nullification/Reflection Forcefield (Can create PSI Shields to nullify or reflect PSI attacks. Can be reinforced multiple times)
  • Prayers (not gonna say anything about this one cause the description of it is very messy rn)
• layout changes including P&A and equipment
• Added more Paula images
• Added more info in weaknesses
• Removed some unnecessary text in Summary
• Removed PK Flash (She doesn't have this lol)
• Probably more...

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

Also speaking of blogs: I was gonna keep it hidden, but I've also made some sandboxes for Ness and Paula. They're not entirely finished yet, so do expect more info added into it.

Spoiler: Ness Sandbox

Old profile
New profile

• Added and corrected abilities:
  • Zoolingualism (Ness can understand and talk with animals.)
  • Weapon Mastery (Primarily uses baseball bats to attack. Can somewhat use slingshots and yo-yos)
  • Limited Teleportation (Via Teleport α. Requires room and a build up of speed first. Can teleport his friends along with him.)
  • Limited Forcefield and Attack Reflection/Reduction (Can create shields to reduce or reflect half of the physical and some non-PSI energy damage back to the opponent)
  • Enhanced Teleportation (Learned Teleport β after absorbing Magicant. Comparable if not superior to Poo, who teleported out of this room)
  • Inorganic Physiology and Immortality (Both Type 1. Dr. Andonuts transferred the souls of Ness and his friends into robots in order to travel to the past with the Phase Distorter 3, which can demolish lifeforms)
• Some layout changes like the P&A and equipment
• Added additional info in weaknesses and notable attacks
• More that I don't remember...

Spoiler: Paula

Old profile
New profile

• Added/corrected abilities:
  • Precognition/Clairvoyance (Non-Combat Applicable. Before the start of Earthbound, Paula foresaw her meeting with a boy named Ness and knew her destiny after. Had a premonition saying she and her friends need to go back to Threed in order to get to Summers)
  • Extrasensory Perception (Was able to sense Dr. Andounts location despite being in a different country)
  • Ice Manipulation (PK Freeze targets a single enemy with a chance of freezing them in place)
  • Fire Manipulation (PK Fire targets a single row of enemies)
  • Electricity Manipulation and Forcefield Negation (PK Thunder targets a random opponent with chances to miss or strike. Paula's highest amount being 3 with PK Thunder Sigma and its accuracy becomes better when there are more enemies in the battle. A single strike is able to destroy psychic forcefields that have been put up.)
  • Power Nullification/Reflection Forcefield (Can create PSI Shields to nullify or reflect PSI attacks. Can be reinforced multiple times)
  • Prayers (not gonna say anything about this one cause the description of it is very messy rn)
• layout changes including P&A and equipment
• Added more Paula images
• Added more info in weaknesses
• Removed some unnecessary text in Summary
• Removed PK Flash (She doesn't have this lol)
• Probably more...

Oh snap didn’t see this but it looks cool!

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

link 1, Link 2, Link 3

Does this mean that everyone has a Magicant inside their minds??

 

[Kellex]

link 1, Link 2, Link 3

Does this mean that everyone has a Magicant inside their minds??

Your links aren't working for me.

Oh snap didn’t see this but it looks cool!

Also thanks!

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

Your links aren't working for me.

Weird, it’s working for me.

Here it is

Also thanks!

Np

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

Weird, it’s working for me.

Here it is

Np

I also found another source that proves that every person has a Magicant, since the truth of the universe speaks to universes known as man, there is from 5.28 to 6.08 billions universes, and giving that MOTHER 2 events happen in 199X, which means that it's between 1990 and 1999. Which means, the verse is fully 2-B. But, does this mean that everyone is Low 2-C?!? No. Ness is unique because he successfully absorbed the power of the Earth and his own Magicant. This allowed his consciousness to overlap with the universe and the system of fate, turning that passive "Magicant" potential into an active power

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

I also found another source that proves that every person has a Magicant, since the truth of the universe speaks to universes known as man, there is from 5.28 to 6.08 billions universes, and giving that MOTHER 2 events happen in 199X, which means that it's between 1990 and 1999. Which means, the verse is fully 2-B. But, does this mean that everyone is Low 2-C?!? No. Ness is unique because he successfully absorbed the power of the Earth and his own Magicant. This allowed his consciousness to overlap with the universe and the system of fate, turning that passive "Magicant" potential into an active power

Bump

 

[MinecraftHater2011]

Calced the poltergeist's house shaking feat at the very start of Mother 1 and got some decent 9-B to 9-A results. Also found this feat of Ninten turning a semi-truck into a "pile of junk", although I'm not sure if that's referring to him just breaking the engine or outright fragmenting the whole vehicle.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

Calced the poltergeist's house shaking feat at the very start of Mother 1 and got some decent 9-B to 9-A results. Also found this feat of Ninten turning a semi-truck into a "pile of junk", although I'm not sure if that's referring to him just breaking the engine or outright fragmenting the whole vehicle.

Neat

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

I also found another source that proves that every person has a Magicant, since the truth of the universe speaks to universes known as man, there is from 5.28 to 6.08 billions universes, and giving that MOTHER 2 events happen in 199X, which means that it's between 1990 and 1999. Which means, the verse is fully 2-B. But, does this mean that everyone is Low 2-C?!? No. Ness is unique because he successfully absorbed the power of the Earth and his own Magicant. This allowed his consciousness to overlap with the universe and the system of fate, turning that passive "Magicant" potential into an active power

Bump

 

[Kellex]

I also found another source that proves that every person has a Magicant, since the truth of the universe speaks to universes known as man, there is from 5.28 to 6.08 billions universes, and giving that MOTHER 2 events happen in 199X, which means that it's between 1990 and 1999. Which means, the verse is fully 2-B.

It would still technically be uncountable universes cause it isn't restricted to humans.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

It would still technically be uncountable universes cause it isn't restricted to humans.

Neat… 2-B EarthBound is real again

 

[MinecraftHater2011]

Calced the poltergeist's house shaking feat at the very start of Mother 1 and got some decent 9-B to 9-A results.

A revision of the 9-A end was just accepted (I think), although only as an "at most" kind of deal.

Also, why doesn't the M1 cast have mid game/8-C keys? They're able to go blow for blow with standard Starman, and those guys are 8-C (now that I think about it, I don't think they actually encounter any Starman units or enemies in general that scale to the late game M2 cast, weirdly enough), so...

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

A revision of the 9-A end was just accepted (I think), although only as an "at most" kind of deal.

Also, why doesn't the M1 cast have mid game/8-C keys? They're able to go blow for blow with standard Starman, and those guys are 8-C (now that I think about it, I don't think they actually encounter any Starman units or enemies in general that scale to the late game M2 cast, weirdly enough), so...

I agree with this

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

lol I was going through a lot of EarthBound stuff, and the vs battles wiki, and the R>F Transcendence actually is still usable for the Player.. the verse might even be 1-A apparently someone said? I don’t buy it though. However:

The Player’s Transcendence:​

In Mother 3, there is a location called the "Player Sanctuary." In Japanese, this is a pun: Pureya (Player) and Purea (Prayer). The Japanese version makes it clearer that the characters are aware they exist within a "Program" or "Story" that is "more real" when the Player is watching. This supports the Reality-Fiction (R>F) Transcendence needed for Low 1-C—or even 1-A?! As the Player's reality is qualitatively superior to the game's mathematical dimensions.

---

---

"4th-D Slip" vs. "Dimensional Slip":​

In EarthBound Beginnings (Mother 1), Ninten has an ability called "4th-D Slip."

English: 4th-D Slip.
Japanese: Jigen Surippu (Dimensional Slip).

The English name implies it's just about "Time" (the 4th dimension). The Japanese name, however, uses the term Jigen, which specifically refers to spatial dimensions. Using this to "slip" out of a 3D battle implies Ninten is moving along a 5th axis (4 spatial and 1 temporal), which scales the "container" of the battle to a 5D space (Low 1-C).

---

The Truth of The Universe(s):​

The Truth would be a 5D Hilbert Space encompassing "Human Universes". Talah Rama states that the Truth speaks to the "universes known as man". This basically defines every human being as a literal, self-contained universe rather than just a person.

If the ToTU functions as a Wave Function or Hilbert Space that contains uncountably infinite 4D universes (the collective "wave" of all human existence), it would qualify as a 5D structure! Under VSB standards, a structure that is one uncountably infinite level above a 4D spacetime is Low 1-C.

---

Conceptual Magicant:​

Magicant is described as a "conceptual world" where dual abstractions like beauty and goodness or pain and hatred take physical shape. So, according to the Source, at the center of this conceptual world is the Sea of Eden, which serves as a literal bridge that allows Ness to "touch the truth of the universe". The Dark Dragon is explicitly capable of erasing the concept of evil from the universe(s). According to R>F standards, affecting the fundamental ontological concepts (like good/evil) that govern a multiverse is a feat of qualitative superiority.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

Thoughts?

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

What are you guy’s thoughts on this EarthBound Cosmology that was made recently? The Cosmology caps at 2-A to Low 1-C/1-C (5-D to 6-D), and even 1-B???

 

[SnakesCity]

Might as well ask here, does anybody know what the actual justification for the "ultimate intelligence" stuff on Ness' profile is, as far i know there's nothing in the game that even remotely suggests Ness learns all the possible PSI moves from M1 and M2, it just seems to be a massive assumption leftover from years old revisions.

And in case it gets brought up the text during the magicant sequence that says "Ness' psychic powers radically expanded!" and "Ness made all of the hidden powers his own" are clearly referring to whatever remaining skills a player might have left in their level up list if they haven't grinded a bunch along with teleport beta.

I see no reason why this sequence should warrant all the skills present in M1 and M2 at all, not to mention how vague "ultimate intelligence" is.

 

[Kellex]

Thoughts?

• The first issue I see is why do they have higher dimensional existence and non-corporeality when the ending of Mother 3 contradicts this or when Tony straight up says we're holding the controller.
• No source for Large Size Type 9
• No source for Cosmic Awareness
• The prayers were able to affect Giygas greatly because he was specifically weak to them as stated in his weakness section. This is added by the fact that through prayers, normal humans were able to affect him easily. Our prayers killed Giygas through continuous effort. Also I don't see how this indicates Reality Warping...?
• No source for non-physical interaction
• Body Puppetry is okay, but nothing here implies avatar creation.
• Telepathy seems alright
• I've said this before and I'll say it again: The player and Mother 3 characters lived through the Dark Dragon's reality reset due to having a good heart just like Lucas. It isn't a durability feat.
• Giygas' influence specifically effect people and animals who already have evil on their mind or your everyday object.

No comment on the rest.

What are you guy’s thoughts on this EarthBound Cosmology that was made recently? The Cosmology caps at 2-A to Low 1-C/1-C (5-D to 6-D), and even 1-B???

That is a very big stretch lol.
The only problem here is the canonicity of other media materials.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

Might as well ask here, does anybody know what the actual justification for the "ultimate intelligence" stuff on Ness' profile is, as far i know there's nothing in the game that even remotely suggests Ness learns all the possible PSI moves from M1 and M2, it just seems to be a massive assumption leftover from years old revisions.

And in case it gets brought up the text during the magicant sequence that says "Ness' psychic powers radically expanded!" and "Ness made all of the hidden powers his own" are clearly referring to whatever remaining skills a player might have left in their level up list if they haven't grinded a bunch along with teleport beta.

I see no reason why this sequence should warrant all the skills present in M1 and M2 at all, not to mention how vague "ultimate intelligence" is.

I believe that… Ness is Nigh-Omniscent due to him obtaining the Ultimate Intelligence after fusing with the Space-Time of all the timeline (Mother 1 and 2). I also think it’s because The Truth of The Universe exists within Ness’ mind

 

[SnakesCity]

I believe that… Ness is Nigh-Omniscent due to him obtaining the Ultimate Intelligence after fusing with the Space-Time of all the timeline (Mother 1 and 2). I also think it’s because The Truth of The Universe exists within Ness’ mind

Right, okay, how does this translate to knowing every single PSI ability in the first two games? Again, "Ultimate Intelligence" is incredibly vague and doesn't really say WHY he would gain these abilities beyond a massive assumption that more intelligence = more abilities. I may make a CRT to address this when i have time.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

I went through the “literal” translation for MOTHER 3 and found these sources.

Transcript link.

However, only a very select few are capable of pulling the Dragon's Needles. Apparently, neither the Magypsies nor Porky have that capability. Yet, the Needles are being pulled now. That means Porky is somehow controlling someone who can control the Dragon's power!

…We have to put a stop to Porky's antics. If we don't, the world will be completely destroyed again, and it will spell the true end for everything. For Porky, that might be the ultimate pleasure, but we can't allow it to happen. We, the last handful of people there are, absolutely can't allow it to happen. Lucas. It seems you're a chosen one, with the ability to pull the Needles sealing the Dragon away. You MUST pull the Dark Dragon's Needle with your own hands, and pass your heart on to the Dragon. Let this be my one and only order to you as your "leader". - Leder

Could this mean Lucas and Claus would have Tier 2 Hax?

And Pokey mentions traveling through time and space countless times, could this be an argument for 2-A verse?

 

[Kellex]

Could this mean Lucas and Claus would have Tier 2 Hax?

No, this just means Lucas and Claus are able to pass down their emotions into the Dark Dragon and change the outcome in their favor.

And Pokey mentions traveling through time and space countless times, could this be an argument for 2-A verse?

Again, no cause countless means "too many to be counted; very many." and not infinite; VSbattle has always associated the word with tier 2-B, examples being one and two.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

No, this just means Lucas and Claus are able to pass down their emotions into the Dark Dragon and change the outcome in their favor.

Ah, so Empathic Manipulation

Again, no cause countless means "too many to be counted; very many." and not infinite; VSbattle has always associated the word with tier 2-B, examples being one and two.

Oh thanks

 

[Kellex]

Ah, so Empathic Manipulation

Yeah, a very minor one lol.

EDIT: Also no problem

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

I found another source for Darkness Manipulation vía Giygas

 

[Kellex]

I found another source for Darkness Manipulation vía Giygas

The text is moreso like Giygas and his goons have successfully destroyed the future rather than full on darkness manipulation. The text too vague to be considered a power anyway.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

The text is moreso like Giygas and his goons have successfully destroyed the future rather than full on darkness manipulation. The text too vague to be considered a power anyway.

Okay then

 

[Kellex]

I've been finding some interesting stuff about souls in Earthbound lately so I want some opinions on it.

Spoiler: Astral Projection

Ness and his gang should have unconventional Astral Projection via becoming unconscious. This is because there are some NPCs that are able to detect spirits like the mouse from the department store in fourside, who's stated to have a sixth sense. Another thing that supports it is Poo; He's able to communicate with spirits from his training and this obscure dialogue about Ness' soul.

Spoiler: PSI Healing

In the Chosen Four profiles, PK Healing is stated to only heal status effects about this much. One particular enemy, Final Starman, has access to this power and they seem to get more linage from it. They're sometimes grouped with GoS (Ghost of Starman) or NRR (Nuclear Reactor Robot) and Final Starman is able to revive them despite NRR being blown up to bits when dying and GoS being a literal ghost. Ness and Poo are able to revive them too along with the rest of the enemies in the game if they're feeling strange, so really Ness and Poo are able to heal more than just status effects; they should have the same description as Final Starmen's.

Spoiler: Mind Program = Soul = PSI Source?

Another interesting thing in the end game is Dr. Andonuts describing the soul as a "mind" program. I do not fully understand what this means yet, but given PSI comes from the mind stuff, it could mean PSI is related to the soul somehow. It would explain why Ness and his gang were still able to use PSI even after having their souls transferred into robots.

I may have found something seriously huge... but for now, I'll look into it further.

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

I've been finding some interesting stuff about souls in Earthbound lately so I want some opinions on it.

Spoiler: Astral Projection

Ness and his gang should have unconventional Astral Projection via becoming unconscious. This is because there are some NPCs that are able to detect spirits like the mouse from the department store in fourside, who's stated to have a sixth sense. Another thing that supports it is Poo; He's able to communicate with spirits from his training and this obscure dialogue about Ness' soul.

Spoiler: Astral Projection

And Ness projecting himself into Magicant would count?

Spoiler: PSI Healing

In the Chosen Four profiles, PK Healing is stated to only heal status effects about this much. One particular enemy, Final Starman, has access to this power and they seem to get more linage from it. They're sometimes grouped with GoS (Ghost of Starman) or NRR (Nuclear Reactor Robot) and Final Starman is able to revive them despite NRR being blown up to bits when dying and GoS being a literal ghost. Ness and Poo are able to revive them too along with the rest of the enemies in the game if they're feeling strange, so really Ness and Poo are able to heal more than just status effects; they should have the same description as Final Starmen's.

Spoiler: Mind Program = Soul = PSI Source?

Another interesting thing in the end game is Dr. Andonuts describing the soul as a "mind" program. I do not fully understand what this means yet, but given PSI comes from the mind stuff, it could mean PSI is related to the soul somehow. It would explain why Ness and his gang were still able to use PSI even after having their souls transferred into robots.

I may have found something seriously huge... but for now, I'll look into it further.

Would this count too?

 

[Username_uhhhIdontknow]

Spoiler: PSI Healing

In the Chosen Four profiles, PK Healing is stated to only heal status effects about this much. One particular enemy, Final Starman, has access to this power and they seem to get more linage from it. They're sometimes grouped with GoS (Ghost of Starman) or NRR (Nuclear Reactor Robot) and Final Starman is able to revive them despite NRR being blown up to bits when dying and GoS being a literal ghost. Ness and Poo are able to revive them too along with the rest of the enemies in the game if they're feeling strange, so really Ness and Poo are able to heal more than just status effects; they should have the same description as Final Starmen's.

This should be Resurrection too

 

[Kellex]

And Ness projecting himself into Magicant would count?

Oh yeah, that too! Ness' real body went unconscious when he entered his Magicant so it's definitely plausible. Good catch.

Would this count too?

No, at least not enough to stand by itself. Taking a slight detour to MOTHER 3, Lucas and Claus learn a similar exclusive power called PK Love. Lucas learns other powers too, but this one in particular comes from deep within his heart. You know, the very thing both Lucas and Claus pass down into the Dark Dragon.

Heart gets mentioned quite a bit in Earthbound too in the more accurate english translation, like here and here. There's definitely a connection between the mind and soul.

Btw stick to Wikibound, not the god awful Earthbound Fandom wiki lol.