Dropping the Riordanverse Tier by smiting it with Zeus' Lightning Bolt

[Cryo123]

Also did Zues turn into Jupiter, or did Juptier, because they are different, similar, but not he same, down to even being different people.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Also did Zues turn into Jupiter, or did Juptier, because they are different, similar, but not he same, down to even being different people.

They literally are the same. They are two different versions of the same god. This was shown clearly when Percy, Jason and Piper met Bacchus, and when Percy referred to him as Dionysus he was momentarily reverting to his Greek form before going back to Roman form

 

[Cryo123]

They literally are the same. They are two different versions of the same god. This was shown clearly when Percy, Jason and Piper met Bacchus, and when Percy referred to him as Dionysus he was momentarily reverting to his Greek form before going back to Roman form

Yeah they are different forms, and therefore are not the same, either way still only planet level.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah they are different forms, and therefore are not the same, either way still only planet level.

They are literally the same beings. They just have two different form as the Romans worshipped them as much as the Greeks did

 

[KingTempest]

That was a solution to the problem, and never meant to be evidence. It was what we would have to put for there abilities if the CRT went through. The evidence was that the star feats were absolutely stupid, and even the new ones aren't great.

Headass solution and more like urge to ignore several feats.

You call things outliers when it should be specific people scaling to them and others should be

#1 Manifestation of how people view the Sun. Does not mean it manifests the Sun's qualities, and Percy Jackson is in it, so unless there is a star level PJ, it's an outlier. Also, the chariot is able to go way closer to the Earth without even leaving its atmosphere. So no, it's not star level.

Flat out says the sun's powers and not the sun's appearance.

And are you deadass serious that Apollo's sun which was turned into a BUS would emit the same energy as the SUN???

Percy was never inside the Sun Chariot in its Sun Chariot mode.

And you clearly don't know how outliers work. It'd be an outlier for Percy, not for the God tier who rides in it every day

#2 He sent her into the sky, and turned her into the "star" objects in the sky. Again, those stars in the sky existed hundereds of millions of years before Zues.

You know she could've made MORE CONSTELLATIONS correct?

#3 Can't acces the link, (On school computer, I'll do it later) but it's still only planet level, and doesn't prove star level.

Jupiter's Large Planet, and it's a small support for Star

#4 Hera was said to look as bright as a supernova from Jason's subjective POV, she did not actually cause a supernova, which I already explained if you had read the comments.

This is a completely different scenario and a completely different moment.

OMG OMG! That some post has the Artemis quote! It only says that the stars were BRIGHTENED TO FORM THE CONSTELATION FROM ONLY A LITTLE BIT OF DUST!

No more headcanon, the star feats are invalid! YES

Here's the quote if you don't want the link

"Artemis stood, said a kind of blessing, breathed into her cupped hand and released the silver dust to the sky. It flew up, sparkling, and vanished.
For a moment I didn't see anything different. Then Annabeth gasped. Looking up in the sky, I saw that the stars were brighter now. They made a pattern I had never noticed before? A gleaming constellation that looked a lot like a girl's figure?a girl with a bow, running across the sky.
"Let the world honor you, my Huntress," Artemis said. "Live forever in the stars."

What

 

[Cryo123]

What

Yep, the feat that started this was not even a feat at all. She made the stars brighter, which would transfer to all other star feats in the verse.

Flat out says the sun's powers and not the sun's appearance.

And are you deadass serious that Apollo's sun which was turned into a BUS would emit the same energy as the SUN???

No, the opposite. The Apollo's Sun IS NOT as powerful as our own. And it can say it has the power, but obviousely it doesn't, if it did, the Earth would vaporize.

Percy was never inside the Sun Chariot in its Sun Chariot mode.

And? Does the form he chooses affect its power output? There's no evidence of such.

You call things outliers when it should be specific people scaling to them and others should be

Well if all the other star feats are invalid, and Apollo's Bus was star level (which it isn't), he would be the only character to do such a thing, and it would be an outlier for him.

Headass solution and more like urge to ignore several feats.

Thanks for the ad hominem. Love that. Makes me feel good about myself lol. Okay seriously though, it's a debate, on the internet about children's stories. It has -5 importance on any scale.

But anyways, it's not ignoring feats if I'm explaining why they're invalid.

 

[KingTempest]

Yep, the feat that started this was not even a feat at all. She made the stars brighter, which would transfer to all other star feats in the verse.

This would not transfer to all other star feats in the verse, because this has a statement of making stars brighter, while those have statements of stars being created.

She sent dust into the air. They created stars and constellations. 2 completely. different things.

No, the opposite. The Apollo's Sun IS NOT as powerful as our own.

THEY FLAT OUT SAY IT IS

And it can say it has the power, but obviousely it doesn't, if it did, the Earth would vaporize.

Based on nothing. It wouldn't have the range for it, simple.

And? Does the form he chooses affect its power output? There's no evidence of such.

So why did he change the mode and it didn't burn down the world when they all got in it and rode it to Camp? Why didn't he let it just drive as the chariot?

He said that the Sun Chariot emits large amounts of light and heat, didn't emit any of that when they turned it into a bus now did it?

Well if all the other star feats are invalid, and Apollo's Bus was star level (which it isn't), he would be the only character to do such a thing, and it would be an outlier for him.

Not a single one except the luminosity and the "supernova" in a room are invalid. Everything else is valid. The supernova next to Jupiter, the creation of the star from Zeus, everything else.

You fail to understand what an outlier is.

An outlier is not "they show it once and never again". An outlier is the verse's consistency with characters of that tier pulling off certain feats, and how it fits in with the lore of the verse. Several Gods create stars and or have star level feats. It's not an outlier.

And I like how you skipped the one where I said they could've made more constellations, but instead of you to remain consistent, you went back to the "they're all invalid" approach.

 

[Cryo123]

This would not transfer to all other star feats in the verse, because this has a statement of making stars brighter, while those have statements of stars being created.

She sent dust into the air. They created stars and constellations. 2 completely. different things.

This is literally the process for how constalations are made in the verse. There's no reason for her to use a different method to make the constelation this time as opposed to all the others. To say the gods have another technique to do the same thing when it's never shown is ridiculous.

 

[Cryo123]

Also, if I concede on the Sun chariot, guess what? The Sun only releases 90.822 Petatons of tnt per second, which is High 6A.

In other words, "making stars" is invalid, all other feats are 6A- High 6A

 

[KingTempest]

This is literally the process for how constalations are made in the verse. There's no reason for her to use a different method to make the constelation this time as opposed to all the others. To say the gods have another technique to do the same thing when it's never shown is ridiculous.

You wanna know why "she would use a different method to make a constellation"?
Because

1. It's not even Artemis making stars in the other instances
2. Different Gods do different things
3. It's never stated to be done the same way

You're assuming because 1 god does a feat a certain way, all the others are doing it the same way as well.

Also, if I concede on the Sun chariot, guess what? The Sun only releases 90.822 Petatons of tnt per second, which is High 6A.

In other words, "making stars" is invalid, all other feats are 6A- High 6A

This denial is ridiculous

 

[Cryo123]

You wanna know why "she would use a different method to make a constellation"?
Because

1. It's not even Artemis making stars in the other instances
2. Different Gods do different things
3. It's never stated to be done the same way

You're assuming because 1 god does a feat a certain way, all the others are doing it the same way as well.

1. It doesn't matter who did it, it was another Greek God
2. Headcanon, there's no evidence they do it differently at all.
3. It's never been stated to be different, and assuing it is is a massive assumption.

Your assming that because we didn't get a description of every god making constelations, they do so differently.

This denial is ridiculous

Ridiculous does not equal untrue.

And anyways, they can say whatever they want, but even The Sun Chariot is able to stay in the sky, relatively close to earth with no long term damage to it. And in the myth about Helios and his son, when the Chariot is too far away, the Earth freezes, meaning it wasn't as powerful as the Sun anyways.

 

[Cryo123]

Also I would like to quote @Kepekley23 on the matter;
But how does it work?" Nico asked. "I thought the sun was a big fiery ball of gas!"

Apollo chuckled and ruffled Nico's hair. "That rumor probably got started because Artemis used to call me a big fiery ball of gas. Seriously, kid, it depends on whether you're talking astronomy or philosophy. You want to talk astronomy? Bah, what fun is that? You want to talk about how humans think about the sun? Ah, now that's more interesting. They've got a lot riding on the sun… er, so to speak. It keeps them warm, grows their crops, powers engines, makes everything look, well, sunnier. This chariot is built out of human dreams about the sun, kid. It's as old as Western Civilization. Every day, it drives across the sky from east to west, lighting up all those puny little mortal lives. The chariot is a manifestation of the sun's power, the way mortals perceive it. Make sense?"

"Apollo seems to be confirming that the Sun is made up of what mortals view it as.

Ancient Greek people believed in a flat earth with a dome sky (as said by Percy himself), so the stars are not High 4-C. Only thing we really have is Artemis's feat in modern day, which is also non-High 4-C".

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

This entire thread is baseless and I don’t know why it’s still continuing, but here’s a new abilities addition thread (link)

 

[KingTempest]

1. It doesn't matter who did it, it was another Greek God
2. Headcanon, there's no evidence they do it differently at all.
3. It's never been stated to be different, and assuing it is is a massive assumption.

Your assming that because we didn't get a description of every god making constelations, they do so differently.

You're assuming because 1 god does a creation feat a certain method, that all other gods do them the same way.

Your entire basis is "it's the same" when that's headcanon.

You need to prove they all do it the same. "They're all gods" random ass undistributed middle fallacy

Ridiculous does not equal untrue.

Lol

And anyways, they can say whatever they want, but even The Sun Chariot is able to stay in the sky, relatively close to earth with no long term damage to it. And in the myth about Helios and his son, when the Chariot is too far away, the Earth freezes, meaning it wasn't as powerful as the Sun anyways.

So if I need to say "THE RANGE OF THE ENERGY IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WHERE EVERYBODY DIES" one more time I swear.

 

[Cryo123]

You need to prove they all do it the same. "They're all gods" random ass undistributed middle fallacy

There's no reason they would be different. I already proved the star feats didn't make sense and that they were more likely just responsible for the objects/had nothing to do with the scientific stars because of how the Sun worked.

Also, don't try to lie about me commiting a fallacy, distrubute the middle would be if I said

All Z's are B's, and Y is a B, therfore Y is a Z.

It is not "There is no evidence the gods are responsible for the real stars (Greek Sun is different from the scientific one), and the only time we see a constelation be made by one of those gods, the stars that are there are simply brightened, therefore, the gods did not make those stars.

Lol

So if I need to say "THE RANGE OF THE ENERGY IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WHERE EVERYBODY DIES" one more time I swear.

Lol indeed.

Okay, regardless, you know the energy output of the Sun is not Star level, right?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Didn’t Zeus turn his shawty into a star and yeet her into the sky? Gods clearly use different methods of making constellations.

 

[Cryo123]

Didn’t Zeus turn his shawty into a star and yeet her into the sky? Gods clearly use different methods of making constellations.

That doesn't neccesarily prove Zeus is 4C. In fact it says he yeeted her into the sky, where the fake, Greek stars are.

Edit: Also when the Huntress constelation is made, it is said she will live forever in the stars, which is pretty much the same thing Zeus did/said, and that feat was just making the stars brighter

Edit: I should reqord that, sound sh*tty

 

[Cryo123]

Also I have to specify, fake means they aren't scientific stars, so someone doesn't tear me to shreds Lmao.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I feel like you missed my point. Zeus makes a constellation via a different method than what Artemis did so your Z = Y = B example is wrong.

 

[Cryo123]

I feel like you missed my point. Zeus makes a constellation via a different method than what Artemis did so your Z = Y = B example is wrong.

There is no evidence he did it differently.

They both word what they're doing exactly the same way (Letting them live on in the stars), and as they are all gods of the same pantheon, there is no reason Zues would be using a different method.

I get it's tempting to look at my argument as; Artemis doesn't make real stars, and Other gods created stars, therefore no god is making real stars, but it's not.

Context matters here, because those feat's validity was already in question as they were only shown to be responsible for their Greek stars anyways.

Also, the argument is worded to make a fallacy anyways, it should be;

1. Greek stars and irl stars are different, just like with the Sun.
2. Artemis did not make real stars, simply brightening up existing stars, saying the person will live on forever in them.
3. When Zues makes a constelation, he only puts them "in the sky".
4. All of these stars irl existed hundreds of millions of years before the gods did.
5. This means that there is no way the gods are responsible for the scientific stars NO MATTER WHAT.
6. Unless of course, constelations are made the way we're explecitally shown they are and are simply brightened up existing stars.
7. Assuming they do it differently for no reason beyond they're not the exact same person [even though they all are in the same Pantheon and related] is headcanon and doesn't disprove my above points.
8. BONUS: Even if the Sun Chariot had the energy output of the Sun, which it doesn't, it would still not be Star level, and would only be High 6A.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Okay this revision just going dumb

 

[Cryo123]

Okay this revision just going dumb

Yeah I feel pretty dumb rn.

 

[Cryo123]

I feel like there is more than ample evidence for a downgrade from High 4C.

Edit: Also, the Speed downgrade is all but garunteed.

 

[Cryo123]

And

Well, usually crts needs the mods to come in and see if what’s being agreed upon is logical, then they give the go ahead.

Idk how to get mods to check this thread or anything like that.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Just invite them via coming to their wall and give the link of this thread

 

[Cryo123]

Just invite them via coming to their wall and give the link of this thread

Thanks!

 

[Armorchompy]

Can I get a recap?

 

[Cryo123]

Can I get a recap?

Sure, sorry I just got home, 1 sec while I write it up

 

[Cryo123]

So for speed, there are currently no feats which put the gods at relativistic reactions, it's only circular reasoning (can react to other gods) and it wouldn't even make sense as Ares was tagged by a 12 year old Percy, who in his prime is only mach 81. They can still turn into light to move so Sol movement speeds, gods that can shoot light like Hyperion would also get Sol attack speed through beams of light.

The gods would scale to the Hermes MHS+ feat.

For AP, it is shown in the book how constelations are created, in that the god breathes dust into the ky, which brightens up existing stars to form the pattern they want.

Even if there were other methods for them "creating stars" Greek stars are simply objects placed in the sky as opposed to real world stars. This is shown as Apollo's Sun Chariot does not share many properties with the Sun, and is only a manifestation of how the ancient Greeks viewed the Sun. (Ie a bright chariot in the sky cricling around the Earth).

The irl stars in the constelations are also hundereds of millions of years older than the gods themselves, meaning the only way they could have made these irl stars is to have altered their properties, which is heacanon, and is solved by them bightening up the stars as they have been shown to do. Or just being responsible for their far smaller, skybound Greek stars.

The feat of Hera looking like a supernova is only meant to describe how bright she is from Jason's subjective perspective. There is no reason that this should be taken as a reliable feat, as no one is injured while around her unless they look directly at her, and all characters present besides Hera are 6C so it makes sense he would describe a character leagues above them as looking like a supernova.

There's this quote that will be used to argue for star level, "Rumor has it that Zeus and Callisto secretly hang out when he's in his Roman form. He hides in the planet Jupiter—or maybe he becomes the planet Jupiter—and she revolves around him in the nearby moon named after her. Watch for a supernova in that quadrant of the sky when Hera discovers their trysts." The thing is, it's ALL RUMORS. There's nothing conrete to cement any of this, it evem says rumor has it. Pretty unreliable.

Also, the god's Roman forms are different anyways, as while the Roman version of the pantheon is derived from Greek mythology, it is the Roman's own take on that mythology, as shown by their completely differet characterization. They could probably get their own key or page.

With these feats removed, the remaining feats are in the 6A range.

These include Typhon, a god tier of the verse, causing craters on the moon, which you've already looked at, and came out to 6A, and Zues, another top tier, flooding the planet with weather manipulation, which is High 6A. As he is the god of Weather such as thunder, lightning, and storms in general, this should scale somewhat above his physical abilities.

The Master bolt, the verse's most powerful weapon, was able to stun, but not 1 shot Typhon, so it shouldn't scale too far above him.

All other gods should downscale from Zues and Typhon, as Zues is the most powerful Greek god, and Typhon is the only person to have defeated Zues in combat.

Here are the quotes;

1. Stars being brightened; Artemis stood, said a kind of blessing, breathed into her cupped hand and released the silver dust to the sky. It flew up, sparkling, and vanished. For a moment I didn't see anything different. Then Annabeth gasped. Looking up in the sky, I saw that the stars were brighter now. They made a pattern I had never noticed before?a gleaming constellation that looked a lot like a girl's figure?a girl with a bow, running across the sky. "Let the world honor you, my Huntress," Artemis said. "Live forever in the stars." Source: The Titan's Curse
2. Apollo on the Sun Chariot: "The chariot is a manifestation of the sun's power, the way mortals perceive it"

Edit: One of our experts also said they wouldn't take the Sun Chariot as 4C either, and also (and taking the enduring the Sun's heat energy is different from surviving its pressures or destroying it.)

 

[Cryo123]

Bump

 

[Cryo123]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

So for speed, there are currently no feats which put the gods at relativistic reactions, it's only circular reasoning (can react to other gods) and it wouldn't even make sense as Ares was tagged by a 12 year old Percy, who in his prime is only mach 81. They can still turn into light to move so Sol movement speeds, gods that can shoot light like Hyperion would also get Sol attack speed through beams of light.

Yeah obviously that's fine if there are no feats.

The gods would scale to the Hermes MHS+ feat.

Which feat is that again?

For AP, it is shown in the book how constelations are created, in that the god breathes dust into the ky, which brightens up existing stars to form the pattern they want.

Even if there were other methods for them "creating stars" Greek stars are simply objects placed in the sky as opposed to real world stars. This is shown as Apollo's Sun Chariot does not share many properties with the Sun, and is only a manifestation of how the ancient Greeks viewed the Sun. (Ie a bright chariot in the sky cricling around the Earth).

The irl stars in the constelations are also hundereds of millions of years older than the gods themselves, meaning the only way they could have made these irl stars is to have altered their properties, which is heacanon, and is solved by them bightening up the stars as they have been shown to do. Or just being responsible for their far smaller, skybound Greek stars.

Yeah, that does make sense to me. Been a while since I read the books, but it does check out.

The feat of Hera looking like a supernova is only meant to describe how bright she is from Jason's subjective perspective. There is no reason that this should be taken as a reliable feat, as no one is injured while around her unless they look directly at her, and all characters present besides Hera are 6C so it makes sense he would describe a character leagues above them as looking like a supernova.

Yeah I mean, she'd have blown up everything nearby if she did really reach supernova levels of heat. Which wouldn't be tier 4 anyway coming from a human-sized being.

There's this quote that will be used to argue for star level, "Rumor has it that Zeus and Callisto secretly hang out when he's in his Roman form. He hides in the planet Jupiter—or maybe he becomes the planet Jupiter—and she revolves around him in the nearby moon named after her. Watch for a supernova in that quadrant of the sky when Hera discovers their trysts." The thing is, it's ALL RUMORS. There's nothing conrete to cement any of this, it evem says rumor has it. Pretty unreliable.

Eh, I think there's definitely intent behind this kind of stuff being stated. But I don't particularly mind it not being used.

Also, the god's Roman forms are different anyways, as while the Roman version of the pantheon is derived from Greek mythology, it is the Roman's own take on that mythology, as shown by their completely differet characterization. They could probably get their own key or page.

Definitely. Probably key tho.

These include Typhon, a god tier of the verse, causing craters on the moon, which you've already looked at, and came out to 6A, and Zues, another top tier, flooding the planet with weather manipulation, which is High 6A. As he is the god of Weather such as thunder, lightning, and storms in general, this should scale somewhat above his physical abilities.

The Master bolt, the verse's most powerful weapon, was able to stun, but not 1 shot Typhon, so it shouldn't scale too far above him.

All other gods should downscale from Zues and Typhon, as Zues is the most powerful Greek god, and Typhon is the only person to have defeated Zues in combat.

Do most gods really scale to Zeus, though? Someone like Hades or Poseidon sure, but idk about the rest, especially minor gods.

 

[Cryo123]

Yeah obviously that's fine if there are no feats.

Which feat is that again?

Here's the link

Eh, I think there's definitely intent behind this kind of stuff being stated. But I don't particularly mind it not being used.

I can see that, but it could also be hyperbolic to show how mad she would be. There's just nothing legit backing up that she could do that.

Do most gods really scale to Zeus, though? Someone like Hades or Poseidon sure, but idk about the rest, especially minor gods.

Well they downscale from Zues, and they have helped him fight Typhon, which means they're at least within the same ball park of him.

Definitely. Probably key tho.

Agreed, they definitely don't deserve their own page.

Edit: Minor gods should stay scaled to their Island level feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

Here's the link

Ah. Eh. Dunno if it'd scale to reactions, might just be movement speed.

Well they downscale from Zues

What's the reasoning for this?

and they have helped him fight Typhon, which means they're at least within the same ball park of him.

They did, but did their help actually matter? IIRC nobody really hurt Typhon, while he one-shot Dionysus or something like that

 

[Cryo123]

Ah. Eh. Dunno if it'd scale to reactions, might just be movement speed.

Yeah, that is true, but seeing as they're casually messing with empowered High Hypersonic+ characters, they should stay in the hypersonic range no matter what. Maybe we could have a "possibely MHS+ reaction speeds".

They did, but did their help actually matter? IIRC nobody really hurt Typhon, while he one-shot Dionysus or something like that

I don't remember if they really helped at all, but Dionysus did survive the hit to my knowledge, even if he was knocked out instantly, so a no more than key could be added

Edit: I'm going to have a test rn, I won't be active for a short bit

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, that is true, but seeing as they're casually messing with empowered High Hypersonic+ characters, they should stay in the hypersonic range no matter what. Maybe we could have a "possibely MHS+ reaction speeds".

Idk, neutral

I don't remember if they really helped at all, but Dionysus did survive the hit to my knowledge, even if he was knocked out instantly, so a no more than key could be added

That would be "at most", but considering their regeneration I don't think that's a feat at all.

Edit: I'm going to have a test rn, I won't be active for a short bit

No rush of course

 

[Cryo123]

Idk, neutral

I think we should just scale them to baseline MHS, as they are casually able to keep up with mach 81 characters, idk if it's close enough for a tier upscale, but they would at least get a "High Hypersonic+" Rating.

That would be "at most", but considering their regeneration I don't think that's a feat at all.

Yeah. I think they would probably scale to low 6A, as they are vastly above 6C minor gods, and there's little to no reason to scale them 14x below Zues's physicals to warant a High 6B+ either. If we wanted to be safe, we could do that though.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think we should just scale them to baseline MHS, as they are casually able to keep up with mach 81 characters, idk if it's close enough for a tier upscale, but they would at least get a "High Hypersonic+" Rating.

Pretty close next tier so it should be fine.

Yeah. I think they would probably scale to low 6A, as they are vastly above 6C minor gods, and there's little to no reason to scale them 14x below Zues's physicals to warant a High 6B+ either. If we wanted to be safe, we could do that though.

No I just don't think they scale to Zeus at all.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Lol don’t tell me we’re actually going through with these headcanon changes

 

[Cryo123]

No I just don't think they scale to Zeus at all.

Well they have to massively upscale from the minor gods while still being a lot weaker than Zues, so higher than 6C but lower than 6A