Dropping the Riordanverse Tier by smiting it with Zeus' Lightning Bolt

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

She did lose to him, though she may not have given stars to him. She still is filled with them though

She didn't lose. She beat him. That's literally what he's describing, how unlikely the odds are of beating him many times. And yes, she has stars on her body. But not literal stars, the body they're referring to isn't even physical.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Percy and Jason talking about supernovae are obviously hyperbole.

Literally never disagreed with this

The passage explicitly states that Artemis made certain stars brighter, not that she created them. Hera's milk spilling to form the Milky Way has no reason to apply to her AP, as milk and punches are utterly unconnected. As such, even if these feats were legitimate, the first wouldn't nearly be Tier 4 while the second would be Tier 3 environmental destruction only.

Sure, there’s still Tier 5 calcs for Artemis brightening stars. And Hera’s milk scales to her magic, and I’ve already proven that the gods magic scales all around to their stats.

I never disputed the part about Nut having stars on her, which is covered under my points about the difference between mythological representations of celestial bodies and scientific ones. I specifically targeted galaxies and nebulae because ancient Egyptians never knew about them, so my previous argument doesn't apply. Khonshu, who's a legitimately reliable source about Nut's appearance, only says she has stars, not galaxies and nebulae.

Would this not still be Tier 4?

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

And Hera creating the Milky Way via breast milk isn’t subject to the same scrutiny as the Artemis feat because there is no mass confusion, considering that its formation occurred 13.6 billion years ago

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

And Hera creating the Milky Way via breast milk isn’t subject to the same scrutiny as the Artemis feat because there is no mass confusion, considering that its formation occurred 13.6 billion years ago

Hera didn't create the milky way lol. The gods aren't that old. They didn't create any celestial bodies. Apollo is literally canonically younger than the country of Egypt.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

And Hera creating the Milky Way via breast milk isn’t subject to the same scrutiny as the Artemis feat because there is no mass confusion, considering that its formation occurred 13.6 billion years ago

Yeah Hera isn't that old. Even Gaea, the literal Earth itself, is only 4.5 billion years old, and she lived longer than every other god minus Ouranous and Chaos

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Hera didn't create the milky way lol. The gods aren't that old. They didn't create any celestial bodies. Apollo is literally canonically younger than the country of Egypt.

Yeah Hera isn't that old. Even Gaea, the literal Earth itself, is only 4.5 billion years old, and she lived longer than every other god minus Ouranous and Chaos

I actually have zero clue on the feat itself ngl I just said it because IdiosyncraticLawyer said it was a feat

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I actually have zero clue on the feat itself ngl I just said it because IdiosyncraticLawyer said it was a feat

Honestly I have no idea either

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Sure, there’s still Tier 5 calcs for Artemis brightening stars. And Hera’s milk scales to her magic, and I’ve already proven that the gods magic scales all around to their stats.

Fine, but the tier 5 calc is still based on a false premise, as discussed above. Also, this bullet point was hypothetical, and you haven't addressed its parent.

Would this not still be Tier 4?

It's subject to the other arguments I gave regarding the difference between mythological and scientific stars, as Despair said.
Do you have any other objections, or can we resolve this now?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Honestly I have no idea either

I just included that because someone mentioned it a few pages back. It wasn't directed at either of you. Do either of you have more objections, or can I submit my discussion rules for staff consideration?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I just included that because someone mentioned it a few pages back. It wasn't directed at either of you. Do either of you have more objections, or can I submit my discussion rules for staff consideration?

I'm not sure a discussion rule is necessary as of now. It was only talked in this thread and nobody objects it now

 

[InfiniteSped]

Anyone has the giants throwing mountains quote?

I remembered this from Mark of Athena:

Phorcys’s mouth stretched into that wind tunnel smile. “Exactly! I taught the twins everything they know, or at least I tried to. They never listened. Their first
big trick? They tried to reach Olympus by piling mountains on top of one another. It was just an illusion, of course. I told them it was ridiculous. ‘You should start small,’ I said. ‘Sawing each other in half, pulling gorgons out of a hat. That sort of thing. And matching sequined outfits. Twins need those!’”

Seems like piling up mountains was just stage magic to make them look good, maybe fake ones like they had in the fight against Percy & Jason.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm not sure a discussion rule is necessary as of now. It was only talked in this thread and nobody objects it now

Fine, but I'm archiving the rules in case we need them in the future. I should at least add notes to Hera, Artemis, and Nut about their star feats and Luke, Annabeth, and Percy about lifting the sky.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Fine, but I'm archiving the rules in case we need them in the future. I should at least add notes to Hera, Artemis, and Nut about their star feats and Luke, Annabeth, and Percy about lifting the sky.

Sure. If a time will come and it'll be needed then why not

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Anyone has the giants throwing mountains quote?

I remembered this from Mark of Athena:


Seems like piling up mountains was just stage magic to make them look good, maybe fake ones like they had in the fight against Percy & Jason.

Iirc there was another quote, trying to find where it was from

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Iirc there was another quote, trying to find where it was from

Yup, found it

1. Jason made a heroic little whimpering sound he hoped his friends couldn’t hear. He was very sure no demigod could solo this guy. Porphyrion could lift mountains. He could crush Jason with one finger.
   
   

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Pretty sure Piper has a quote in Lost Hero about the mountain throwing as well

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yup, found it

1. Jason made a heroic little whimpering sound he hoped his friends couldn’t hear. He was very sure no demigod could solo this guy. Porphyrion could lift mountains. He could crush Jason with one finger.

And didn't Porphyrion stated in the Lost Hero he's literally at his weakest?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Found this old Lifting Strength CRT

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Found this old Lifting Strength CRT

Which I requested to be closed and move the discussion here.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

There’s only one valid anti feat there; 12 year old Percy failing to push a boulder yet in an even younger age, he can physically grapple the Minotaur and rip off its horns, who can throw cars. There’s more feats than anti feats

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I plan to split Percy’s profile into keys anyways for various books. That way, we won’t be having this discussion

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Here's the quote with Piper.

“It doesn’t matter,” Piper said quickly. “The giants—well, there were lots of giants in Greek mythology. But if I’m thinking of the right ones, they were bad news. Huge, almost impossible to kill. They could throw mountains and stuff. I think they were related to the Titans. They rose from the earth after Kronos lost the war—I mean the first Titan war, thousands of years ago—and they tried to destroy Olympus. If we’re talking about the same giants—” “Chiron said it was happening again,” Jason remembered. “The last chapter. That’s what he meant. No wonder he didn’t want us to know all the details.”
Leo whistled. “So … giants who can throw mountains. Friendly wolves that will eat us if we show weakness. Evil espresso drinks. Gotcha. Maybe this isn’t the time to bring up my psycho babysitter.”

It's possible they're working under the assumption that what Piper remembers is literally a fact rather than a story she heard that could be missing details.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Here's the quote with Piper.


It's possible they're working under the assumption that what Piper remembers is literally a fact rather than a story she heard that could be missing details.

I think there’s evidence considering that the giants fought against the gods, implying a degree of comparability. The gods can already do crazy feats like flip islands and throw mountains, so I think it provides support to the statement.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I think there’s evidence considering that the giants fought against the gods, implying a degree of comparability. The gods can already do crazy feats like flip islands and throw mountains, so I think it provides support to the statement.

Obligatory note, Mount Everest still weighs over 6000x less than Earth's atmosphere.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Obligatory note, Mount Everest still weighs over 6000x less than Earth's atmosphere.

Oh yeah I think Class E is invalid but some ppl r saying the demigods cap at like Class 10, I’m just saying it’s not possible

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Obligatory note, Mount Everest still weighs over 6000x less than Earth's atmosphere.

The sky lifting feat wasn't really related to strength, but rather to willpower. That's why Luke, Annabeth and Percy could carry it (and it almost killed them anyways)

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Not yet, still pending evaluations for some calcs and I need to blog the MHS feats

 

[InfiniteSped]

Well, Annabeth believed that the Dyonisius giants could pile up mountains, and she seemed to be mistaken, so any other statement about giants and mountains is sketchy at best, imo. The myth stories aren't always correct.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Yeah the TLH statements of lifting mountains are based on Piper having read Greek myths which was clarified to have been an illusion and not real.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Have you reached any conclusions here?

We're still discussing things out

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah the TLH statements of lifting mountains are based on Piper having read Greek myths which was clarified to have been an illusion and not real.

Wasn't Piper reading these myths with her father? The only illusion is she knowing Jason and Leo from earlier, which was a lie

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Yeah the TLH statements of lifting mountains are based on Piper having read Greek myths which was clarified to have been an illusion and not real.

The giants are relative in strength to the gods, who are literally STATED to be able to flip islands and throw mountains. Not a myth, a direct statement and elaboration on how they do it

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The giants are relative in strength to the gods, who are literally STATED to be able to flip islands and throw mountains. Not a myth, a direct statement and elaboration on how they do it

Besides, Otis and Ephialetes directy took Ares as a hostage before. Like they sttaight up kidnapped him and trapped him

 

[InfiniteSped]

Wasn't Piper reading these myths with her father? The only illusion is she knowing Jason and Leo from earlier, which was a lie

The two giants lifting mountains was an illusion, not her reading about it. Percy even describes them actually piling up the mountains in the Greek Gods book, iirc, so seems like the myths were just incorrect in that regard. There could be other myths about other giants lifting mountains, but they're in a sus position.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Wasn't Piper reading these myths with her father? The only illusion is she knowing Jason and Leo from earlier, which was a lie

My point is she is referencing the Ephialtes and Otis feat of stacking mountains which is verbatim said to have been an illusion.

The giants are relative in strength to the gods, who are literally STATED to be able to flip islands and throw mountains. Not a myth, a direct statement and elaboration on how they do it

The gods being able to do it is irrelevant to my post seeing as I never said whether I agreed or disagreed with that line of scaling. What I am talking about is Piper’s statement which is about a feat that explicitly doesn’t happen. InfiniteSped literally posted the quote from Phorcys stating that the feat Piper references is false.

 

[InfiniteSped]

For the god scaling, it's really weird, they absolutely do not come accross as god level, and demigods fighting people as strong as Olympians just makes 0 sense. The giants as a whole come across as even weaker than the restricted Titans, just with good regen, although I don't remember if they ever say they're weakened.

Like, Percy uses "several tons" of bricks to slow Polybotes down enough for him to get away and have a short conversation with Terminus. In the same book, Alcyoneus is overpowered and said to be "out of his weight division" by a 10-ton Elephant. In Mark of Athena, Otis is crushed under a 10-foot section of roof that Percy blew up, and it caves his head in a bit. These guys aren't throwing mountains in this state.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I mean I don’t think a powerful demigod like Percy or Jason would get absolutely stomped by a god in terms of a brute strength or speed fight. The issue is that the gods can straight up smite you, remove your soul, or turn you into a snake or something. But I think the fact that Percy could overpower Hades in hand-to-hand kinda shows that the gap between demigods and gods isn’t huge.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Like Percy could withstand attacks from Atlas, and he could keep pace with a casual Ares. The biggest issue with the gods is their hax