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Dropping the Riordanverse Tier by smiting it with Zeus' Lightning Bolt

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So what are the conclusions/agreements here so far?
 
Testarossa002 said:
Piper did say that giants could throw mountains
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I was fine with that statement, the mountain lifting is something we can work with. I was pointing out the flaw with Enceladus shaking Mt. Diablo specifically.
Antvasima said:
So what are the conclusions/agreements here so far?
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7B to 7-A/mhs-mhs+/Class T stats. We just need to iron out some calc details and then get them evaluated.
 
Okay. It is good that you are making progress.
 
WIngs_Of_Despair said:
On the subject of constellation feats for AP, I think it's pretty clear upon analysis of the mechanics of the verse that they aren't literally creating stars. The Artemis feat is explicitly her not creating them, as she merely emphasized existing stars to present an image. There's also a clear division in-universe between the celestial bodies in the universe and the representations in the supernatural world. Apollo, Ra, and their relationship with the sun make that pretty clear. Apollo himself states that all the stars and planets exist and operate independently of his (or any god's) involvement. So they obviously aren't creations of any of those gods.
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This seems to have been discussed to death, and we've copied a calc from the OBD that pegs this feat at 58.6 exatons/s. I don't know if it was ever accepted, but High 4-C is invalid FRA. Given the ferocity of the debate about this, I suggest we make a discussion rule about this feat not being tier 4.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
This seems to have been discussed to death, and we've copied a calc from the OBD that pegs this feat at 58.6 exatons/s. I don't know if it was ever accepted, but High 4-C is invalid FRA. Given the ferocity of the debate about this, I suggest we make a discussion rule about this feat not being tier 4.
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That is a calc from 2017 that was never even accepted. The least that can be done is to update the feat with a new calc
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
That is a calc from 2017 that was never even accepted. The least that can be done is to update the feat with a new calc
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Was it explicitly rejected? If not, we should get calc group members to see if it's valid first before we try a recalc.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Was it explicitly rejected? If not, we should get calc group members to see if it's valid first before we try a recalc.
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It's more because it was calced in Naruto forums and it doesn't hold in the wiki standards. The calcer there simply copied their calc and posted it here.

Besides, the calc has some problems like assuming all the stars in the constellation are the same distance away when it's demonstrably false
 
I don’t think u can just assume every celestial body in the verse follows the human ideation logic. The sun and stuff are different because of long established myths, but the constellations don’t share that trait
 
Mazdoesstuff said:
I don’t think u can just assume every celestial body in the verse follows the human ideation logic. The sun and stuff are different because of long established myths, but the constellations don’t share that trait
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They literally do. Constellations not only relate to myth in similar ways (there are several myths about the formation of constellations), but Apollo says that all the planets and stars operate regardless of the gods' involvement.
 
WIngs_Of_Despair said:
They literally do. Constellations not only relate to myth in similar ways (there are several myths about the formation of constellations), but Apollo says that all the planets and stars operate regardless of the gods' involvement.
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Yeah, the constellation feats aren't tier 4. It's already been explained to death in this thread, which is why I want a discussion rule against mentioning them again. How much staff input is needed for that?
 
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KingTempest said:
Are there any feats of scaling to the lower level 7 other than backscaling from Percy?
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Nothing on the same level. Besides Leo's fire magic scaling above Khione's freezing rain feat. We could probably upscale them from Magicians though, someone like Sadie probably isn't much more durable than the average demigod. That could probably give us something in tier 8 at least.
 
Leo is tier 7 with machines at least for harming Enceladus. He also fought against Clytius with a bunch of the Seven before Hecate joined them. Other demigods in the fight included Jason, Hazel, Frank, Nico and Piper who all have tier 7 scaling.

Piper harmed Mimas with Piper even making him stumble with one of her attacks, Piper also managed to make Enceladus lose his grip on Percy by nailing him in the head with her dagger though that could be more so just shock. She also 1v1’d Periboia (because Aphrodite’s contribution was just rose petals).

Annabeth also harmed Mimas along with Piper, fought Periboia before Piper took over, harming her with dagger and I think her sword. Killed Enceladus with Athena’s help.

I’d need to reread BoO to be sure.

Basically Percy = Jason ~ Enceladus >~ Piper, Leo and Annabeth at various points in time.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Leo is tier 7 with machines at least for harming Enceladus. He also fought against Clytius with a bunch of the Seven before Hecate joined them. Other demigods in the fight included Jason, Hazel, Frank, Nico and Piper who all have tier 7 scaling.

Piper harmed Mimas with Piper even making him stumble with one of her attacks, Piper also managed to make Enceladus lose his grip on Percy by nailing him in the head with her dagger though that could be more so just shock. She also 1v1’d Periboia (because Aphrodite’s contribution was just rose petals).

Annabeth also harmed Mimas along with Piper, fought Periboia before Piper took over, harming her with dagger and I think her sword. Killed Enceladus with Athena’s help.

I’d need to reread BoO to be sure.

Basically Percy = Jason ~ Enceladus >~ Piper, Leo and Annabeth at various points in time.
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There's this really strange idea that stabbing somebody makes you scale to them that I see popping up in the thread. But unless you have an instance of them actually matching/surpassing these characters in strength then there's no reason to give them the same AP as them.
 
WIngs_Of_Despair said:
There's this really strange idea that stabbing somebody makes you scale to them that I see popping up in the thread. But unless you have an instance of them actually matching/surpassing these characters in strength then there's no reason to give them the same AP as them.
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I mean the idea of stabbing = scaling is a thing on this wiki in general. Bladed weapons aren’t exactly dura neg; a 9-C character shouldn’t be able to stab a 7-A character

You also have Piper staggering Enceladus by nailing him in the head with the base of her dagger
 
Annabeth would also directly scale to the value as she can clash blades with Kronos/Luke, meaning that their strength is comparable
 
Didn't all the 7 were able to fight Giants?

Jason, Leo and Piper defeated Enclelaus, and later Annabeth defeated him

Hazel is a big three demigod, and Frank alongside her fought Alcyoneus. They also fought Polybotes later (even though Percy killed him)

Jason, Piper and Percy fought Otis and Ephialetes

Piper and Annabeth fought Mimas and defeated him

Piper directly clashed with Periboia

Annabeth also have many feats of scaling to Percy. Thalia and Nico too

Reyna fought Orion by herself

Clytius was defeated by Leo, Hazel and Frank

Also:

Piper defeated Khione by herself, and Leo is capable of doing the same
 
Mazdoesstuff said:
I mean the idea of stabbing = scaling is a thing on this wiki in general. Bladed weapons aren’t exactly dura neg; a 9-C character shouldn’t be able to stab a 7-A character

You also have Piper staggering Enceladus by nailing him in the head with the base of her dagger
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Well maybe they shouldn't. Piercing durability is a thing, especially for this verse, where the tier 7 characters can canonically be harmed by regular bullets and arrows. Unless handguns are tier 7 now? And that's not even touching upon the properties Celestial Bronze/Imperial Gold have against supernatural entities, which make it even less of a matter of the character's AP vs the target's overall durability.

Staggering≠damaging. Unless the average human level Rachel is tier 7 for stunning Luke with a hairbrush.

Mazdoesstuff said:
Annabeth would also directly scale to the value as she can clash blades with Kronos/Luke, meaning that their strength is comparable
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Her strength is not comparable to Luke lol. Percy is far above Annabeth and so is Luke, that's something pretty clearly established. Even in that scene Percy says it's her skill that allows her to catch Luke's blade like that. And then, while losing the struggle, Annabeth says that Luke is holding back Kronos from using his full strength. And when Kronos actually pushed on her guard, it broke her arm. Do we scale people to getting their arms broken by losing blade clashes?
 
Mazdoesstuff said:
Maybe with the weaker demigods, but people like Percy, Jason, and etc can clash with the giants who are capable of lifting and throwing mountains
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Yeah but Percy struggles with that too.

"Look out!" Grover yelped. The archway crumbled. I looked up in time to see a twenty-ton scowling
Hera topple over on us. Annabeth and I would've been flattened, but Thalia shoved us from behind and
we landed just out of danger.
"Thalia!" Grover cried.

When the dust cleared and the mountain stopped rocking, we found her still alive, but her legs were
pinned under the statue.
We tried desperately to move it, but it would've taken several Cyclopes. When we tried to pull Thalia
out from under it, she yelled in pain.
Click to expand...
 
Mazdoesstuff said:
Frank scales because he’s noted to be the strongest physically of the 7

I think Thalia scales as well since she’s pretty much comparable to Jason
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Nico should downscale from Percy and Thalia, as he was still able to fight alongside them against Iaptus. Clarisse is also physically stronger than Percy (or at least she was). Reyna also have some impressive feats
 
GraveDigger84 said:
Yeah but Percy struggles with that too.
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There are a few anti feats here and there but the demigods can consistently clash with giants and titans, who have far higher feats
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Nico should downscale from Percy and Thalia, as he was still able to fight alongside them against Iaptus. Clarisse is also physically stronger than Percy (or at least she was). Reyna also have some impressive feats
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Nico downscaling is fine, Clarisse shouldn’t scale since he’s only stronger than BOS Percy, who does not scale to Class T. Reyna can scale I’m not sure
 
Mazdoesstuff said:
Frank scales because he’s noted to be the strongest physically of the 7

I think Thalia scales as well since she’s pretty much comparable to Jason
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I can agree with Frank being the same as Percy and Jason.

Is Thalia ever presented as being Jason's physical equal? I feel like at best they're comparable in the overall sense.
 
Mazdoesstuff said:
There are a few anti feats here and there but the demigods can consistently clash with giants and titans, who have far higher feats

Nico downscaling is fine, Clarisse shouldn’t scale since he’s only stronger than BOS Percy, who does not scale to Class T. Reyna can scale I’m not sure
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Didn't Clarisse soloed the Drakon though? And I'm pretty sure Clarisse fought with Percy later too
 
Nico also has his own feat of collapsing a castle, which can scale to the weaker demigods. Not sure what that will yield but maybe in the Class M range
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Didn't Clarisse soloed the Drakon though? And I'm pretty sure Clarisse fought with Percy later too
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Her defeating the Drakon doesn’t necessarily mean she scales; unless she grappled it or something. Not sure about Clarisse fighting with Percy but if she clashes with him she can scale
 
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