Dropping the Riordanverse Tier by smiting it with Zeus' Lightning Bolt

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Is there a general discussion thread for riordanverse?

Here

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions/agreements here so far?

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Piper did say that giants could throw mountains

I was fine with that statement, the mountain lifting is something we can work with. I was pointing out the flaw with Enceladus shaking Mt. Diablo specifically.

So what are the conclusions/agreements here so far?

7B to 7-A/mhs-mhs+/Class T stats. We just need to iron out some calc details and then get them evaluated.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It is good that you are making progress.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

PJO: Jason Grace Creates a Storm

vsbattles.fandom.com

Blogged the 7-A feat

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

On the subject of constellation feats for AP, I think it's pretty clear upon analysis of the mechanics of the verse that they aren't literally creating stars. The Artemis feat is explicitly her not creating them, as she merely emphasized existing stars to present an image. There's also a clear division in-universe between the celestial bodies in the universe and the representations in the supernatural world. Apollo, Ra, and their relationship with the sun make that pretty clear. Apollo himself states that all the stars and planets exist and operate independently of his (or any god's) involvement. So they obviously aren't creations of any of those gods.

This seems to have been discussed to death, and we've copied a calc from the OBD that pegs this feat at 58.6 exatons/s. I don't know if it was ever accepted, but High 4-C is invalid FRA. Given the ferocity of the debate about this, I suggest we make a discussion rule about this feat not being tier 4.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This seems to have been discussed to death, and we've copied a calc from the OBD that pegs this feat at 58.6 exatons/s. I don't know if it was ever accepted, but High 4-C is invalid FRA. Given the ferocity of the debate about this, I suggest we make a discussion rule about this feat not being tier 4.

That is a calc from 2017 that was never even accepted. The least that can be done is to update the feat with a new calc

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

That is a calc from 2017 that was never even accepted. The least that can be done is to update the feat with a new calc

Was it explicitly rejected? If not, we should get calc group members to see if it's valid first before we try a recalc.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Was it explicitly rejected? If not, we should get calc group members to see if it's valid first before we try a recalc.

It's more because it was calced in Naruto forums and it doesn't hold in the wiki standards. The calcer there simply copied their calc and posted it here.

Besides, the calc has some problems like assuming all the stars in the constellation are the same distance away when it's demonstrably false

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

The calc is based on a false premise anyway. We've already established that she isn't manipulating the actual stars, but merely a representation that humans perceive. I do agree with a rule to stop people from upgrading them again via those arguments though.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I don’t think u can just assume every celestial body in the verse follows the human ideation logic. The sun and stuff are different because of long established myths, but the constellations don’t share that trait

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Anyways I calced the feat of giants throwing mountains at Class P lol, might blog it

Would scale to the top tiers

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

I don’t think u can just assume every celestial body in the verse follows the human ideation logic. The sun and stuff are different because of long established myths, but the constellations don’t share that trait

They literally do. Constellations not only relate to myth in similar ways (there are several myths about the formation of constellations), but Apollo says that all the planets and stars operate regardless of the gods' involvement.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

They literally do. Constellations not only relate to myth in similar ways (there are several myths about the formation of constellations), but Apollo says that all the planets and stars operate regardless of the gods' involvement.

Yeah, the constellation feats aren't tier 4. It's already been explained to death in this thread, which is why I want a discussion rule against mentioning them again. How much staff input is needed for that?

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

PJO: Giants Throw Mountains

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I need a calc group member to evaluate the 3 calcs

High Hypersonic Percy, 7-A Jason, Class P Giants

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I need a calc group member to evaluate the 3 calcs

High Hypersonic Percy, 7-A Jason, Class P Giants

Ask for that in this thread.

 

[KingTempest]

Are there any feats of scaling to the lower level 7 other than backscaling from Percy?

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Are there any feats of scaling to the lower level 7 other than backscaling from Percy?

Nothing on the same level. Besides Leo's fire magic scaling above Khione's freezing rain feat. We could probably upscale them from Magicians though, someone like Sadie probably isn't much more durable than the average demigod. That could probably give us something in tier 8 at least.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Leo is tier 7 with machines at least for harming Enceladus. He also fought against Clytius with a bunch of the Seven before Hecate joined them. Other demigods in the fight included Jason, Hazel, Frank, Nico and Piper who all have tier 7 scaling.

Piper harmed Mimas with Piper even making him stumble with one of her attacks, Piper also managed to make Enceladus lose his grip on Percy by nailing him in the head with her dagger though that could be more so just shock. She also 1v1’d Periboia (because Aphrodite’s contribution was just rose petals).

Annabeth also harmed Mimas along with Piper, fought Periboia before Piper took over, harming her with dagger and I think her sword. Killed Enceladus with Athena’s help.

I’d need to reread BoO to be sure.

Basically Percy = Jason ~ Enceladus >~ Piper, Leo and Annabeth at various points in time.

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Leo is tier 7 with machines at least for harming Enceladus. He also fought against Clytius with a bunch of the Seven before Hecate joined them. Other demigods in the fight included Jason, Hazel, Frank, Nico and Piper who all have tier 7 scaling.

Piper harmed Mimas with Piper even making him stumble with one of her attacks, Piper also managed to make Enceladus lose his grip on Percy by nailing him in the head with her dagger though that could be more so just shock. She also 1v1’d Periboia (because Aphrodite’s contribution was just rose petals).

Annabeth also harmed Mimas along with Piper, fought Periboia before Piper took over, harming her with dagger and I think her sword. Killed Enceladus with Athena’s help.

I’d need to reread BoO to be sure.

Basically Percy = Jason ~ Enceladus >~ Piper, Leo and Annabeth at various points in time.

There's this really strange idea that stabbing somebody makes you scale to them that I see popping up in the thread. But unless you have an instance of them actually matching/surpassing these characters in strength then there's no reason to give them the same AP as them.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

There's this really strange idea that stabbing somebody makes you scale to them that I see popping up in the thread. But unless you have an instance of them actually matching/surpassing these characters in strength then there's no reason to give them the same AP as them.

I mean the idea of stabbing = scaling is a thing on this wiki in general. Bladed weapons aren’t exactly dura neg; a 9-C character shouldn’t be able to stab a 7-A character

You also have Piper staggering Enceladus by nailing him in the head with the base of her dagger

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Annabeth would also directly scale to the value as she can clash blades with Kronos/Luke, meaning that their strength is comparable

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Didn't all the 7 were able to fight Giants?

Jason, Leo and Piper defeated Enclelaus, and later Annabeth defeated him

Hazel is a big three demigod, and Frank alongside her fought Alcyoneus. They also fought Polybotes later (even though Percy killed him)

Jason, Piper and Percy fought Otis and Ephialetes

Piper and Annabeth fought Mimas and defeated him

Piper directly clashed with Periboia

Annabeth also have many feats of scaling to Percy. Thalia and Nico too

Reyna fought Orion by herself

Clytius was defeated by Leo, Hazel and Frank

Also:

Piper defeated Khione by herself, and Leo is capable of doing the same

 

[GraveDigger84]

Anyways looks like we’re deleting:

6-C/High Hypersonic+/Class E

and we’re shifting over to

7-B/Massively Hypersonic+/Class T

I feel like the demigods should have lower than class T considering they struggle a lot with things way lighter

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

I mean the idea of stabbing = scaling is a thing on this wiki in general. Bladed weapons aren’t exactly dura neg; a 9-C character shouldn’t be able to stab a 7-A character

You also have Piper staggering Enceladus by nailing him in the head with the base of her dagger

Well maybe they shouldn't. Piercing durability is a thing, especially for this verse, where the tier 7 characters can canonically be harmed by regular bullets and arrows. Unless handguns are tier 7 now? And that's not even touching upon the properties Celestial Bronze/Imperial Gold have against supernatural entities, which make it even less of a matter of the character's AP vs the target's overall durability.

Staggering≠damaging. Unless the average human level Rachel is tier 7 for stunning Luke with a hairbrush.

Annabeth would also directly scale to the value as she can clash blades with Kronos/Luke, meaning that their strength is comparable

Her strength is not comparable to Luke lol. Percy is far above Annabeth and so is Luke, that's something pretty clearly established. Even in that scene Percy says it's her skill that allows her to catch Luke's blade like that. And then, while losing the struggle, Annabeth says that Luke is holding back Kronos from using his full strength. And when Kronos actually pushed on her guard, it broke her arm. Do we scale people to getting their arms broken by losing blade clashes?

 

[GraveDigger84]

I mean the idea of stabbing = scaling is a thing on this wiki in general. Bladed weapons aren’t exactly dura neg; a 9-C character shouldn’t be able to stab a 7-A character

Celestial bronze weapons have dura neg though, no?

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I feel like the demigods should have lower than class T considering they struggle a lot with things way lighter

Maybe with the weaker demigods, but people like Percy, Jason, and etc can clash with the giants who are capable of lifting and throwing mountains

 

[GraveDigger84]

Maybe with the weaker demigods, but people like Percy, Jason, and etc can clash with the giants who are capable of lifting and throwing mountains

Yeah but Percy struggles with that too.

"Look out!" Grover yelped. The archway crumbled. I looked up in time to see a twenty-ton scowling
Hera topple over on us. Annabeth and I would've been flattened, but Thalia shoved us from behind and
we landed just out of danger.
"Thalia!" Grover cried.

When the dust cleared and the mountain stopped rocking, we found her still alive, but her legs were
pinned under the statue.
We tried desperately to move it, but it would've taken several Cyclopes. When we tried to pull Thalia
out from under it, she yelled in pain.

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Maybe with the weaker demigods, but people like Percy, Jason, and etc can clash with the giants who are capable of lifting and throwing mountains

Pretty sure it's only Percy and Jason who should get that rating. Idk who else you had in mind.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Celestial bronze weapons have dura neg though, no?

They do. Not to mention that Celestial Bronze (and Imperial Gold) can harm monsters, god and demigods all the same

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Pretty sure it's only Percy and Jason who should get that rating. Idk who else you had in mind.

Frank scales because he’s noted to be the strongest physically of the 7

I think Thalia scales as well since she’s pretty much comparable to Jason

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Frank scales because he’s noted to be the strongest physically of the 7

I think Thalia scales as well since she’s pretty much comparable to Jason

Nico should downscale from Percy and Thalia, as he was still able to fight alongside them against Iaptus. Clarisse is also physically stronger than Percy (or at least she was). Reyna also have some impressive feats

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Yeah but Percy struggles with that too.

There are a few anti feats here and there but the demigods can consistently clash with giants and titans, who have far higher feats

Nico should downscale from Percy and Thalia, as he was still able to fight alongside them against Iaptus. Clarisse is also physically stronger than Percy (or at least she was). Reyna also have some impressive feats

Nico downscaling is fine, Clarisse shouldn’t scale since he’s only stronger than BOS Percy, who does not scale to Class T. Reyna can scale I’m not sure

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Frank scales because he’s noted to be the strongest physically of the 7

I think Thalia scales as well since she’s pretty much comparable to Jason

I can agree with Frank being the same as Percy and Jason.

Is Thalia ever presented as being Jason's physical equal? I feel like at best they're comparable in the overall sense.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

There are a few anti feats here and there but the demigods can consistently clash with giants and titans, who have far higher feats

Nico downscaling is fine, Clarisse shouldn’t scale since he’s only stronger than BOS Percy, who does not scale to Class T. Reyna can scale I’m not sure

Didn't Clarisse soloed the Drakon though? And I'm pretty sure Clarisse fought with Percy later too

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Is Thalia ever presented as being Jason's physical equal? I feel like at best they're comparable in the overall sense.

Thalia clashed with Luke and was overpowering him then. She was also presented as being on par with Percy

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Nico also has his own feat of collapsing a castle, which can scale to the weaker demigods. Not sure what that will yield but maybe in the Class M range

Didn't Clarisse soloed the Drakon though? And I'm pretty sure Clarisse fought with Percy later too

Her defeating the Drakon doesn’t necessarily mean she scales; unless she grappled it or something. Not sure about Clarisse fighting with Percy but if she clashes with him she can scale

 

[GraveDigger84]

Didn't Clarisse soloed the Drakon though? And I'm pretty sure Clarisse fought with Percy later too

Clarisse soloed the drakon by breaking her spear and releasing it's electrical energy into it's eye.

But yeah, they fought some birds and minor gods together in the Stolen Chariot

 

[GraveDigger84]

Nico also has his own feat of collapsing a castle, which can scale to the weaker demigods. Not sure what that will yield but maybe in the Class M range

Wasn't that through the use of his powers? He summoned a spire that caused a tremor.