Dreams of an Overlord (Metal Overlord Tiering CRT)

[GlaceonGamez471]

This dude is clearly controversial, and was suggested to be split off.

To quote the original CRT because I'm lazy

Metal Overlord
Ah, how we knew this time would come. As we know well by now, Shadow is able to beat and ultimately destroy Metal Overlord. In fact, he even implies that Metal is unable to reach Sonic's level with what he displayed during the fight.

• Gets downgraded from 1-C back to 2-C. This means Adventure Master Overlord will be considered to NOT have been fighting against the maximum power of the Chaos Emeralds, but at the baseline of their power.
• Omegabronic made a case for Low 1-C scaling that I am neutral on, the comment being here.

Agree with the thread as someone who helped in it somewhat, but i disagree with Metal Overlord being 2-C, here's why:

- Eggman says they would need a miracle to beat MO and that even the Emeralds might not be enough, even when he acknowledged them as the strongest power/things he knows of prior(Sonic Advance is before heroes, as pointed in the Timeline blog) and Eggman knows(page 4) of the Preciostone/Illumina/Void's power and traveled there to claim it

- To face MO, Sonic needed a significant time for them to charge the power of the Emeralds is in contrasts to many bosses in the entire franchise, frankly i still disagree with downgrading him without any real good reason, as needing such a big charge time is solid evidence of more power of the emeralds being used than normal

- Doom Powers Shadow beating him proves nothing about him being weaker than we thought, but only that Shadow with that many Doom Powers is simply that strong, as pointed in the OP, Base Sonic doesn't scale to Doom Powers Shadow's power, so our only reason to really downgrade him would be based around him fighting an opponent who has no real scaling outside of himself, which i don't believe i need to explain why doesn't contradict the tier 1 rating MO have

So based on the above, if a downgrade were to happen, it would need to be an Low 1-C one, not a 2-C one, as even ignoring the charge up time needed for Super Sonic to be strong enough to have a change against Metal Overlord(which he still couldn't damage him at all no matter what, needing a charged attack + combining power with Super Knuckles and Super Tails. The statements regarding its power still puts him above Illumina/Void's Low 1-C rating at the BARE MINIMUM

Discuss

Staff Tally
Keep 1-C:
Downgrade to Low 1-C:
Downgrade to 2-C:

 

[Dalesean027]

Following

 

[Chariot190]

I don't wanna spent 10 pages again.... Copy paste the arguments at least....

 

[Ednaxel2]

I still vouch for MO for reasons brought previously

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

A message to our future selves : congrats for turning this discussion into a CRT that's as long as the average Dragon Ball thread.

Cheers to that mad W.

 

[Starsprite53]

I still vouch for MO for reasons brought previously

Me too

 

[Omegabronic]

I assume the votes of LordGriffin and Maverick would carry over to here?

I still agree with Low 1-C btw

 

[Chariot190]

I obv agree with Low 1-C, unless like, Shuffle shit gets downgraded as a whole, but as long as that remains.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah im still holding my agree to low 1-C

 

[JJSliderman]

I think I’d go with 2-C to possibly/likely Low 1-C, accounting for the idea that maybe Eggman didn’t know about the full scope of Maginaryworld but also acknowledging there’s a very good chance he did.

 

[CloverDragon03]

My primary concern now that the line about Sonic to Metal Overlord was revealed to be cut content is that after this fight, Shadow fights Sonic. I'll summarize my thoughts in two bullet points:

• In the Metal Overlord fight, as discussed with Omega previously, Shadow can harm him by launching debris at him both with and without Doom Surf, indicating that his power while using it and while not using it are equivalent. This reaches the conclusion that merely having the Doom Powers is a stat boost for Shadow
• It is true that Shadow throws the fight against Sonic. However, that's at the very end, when he's contemplating using his Doom Powers. Before that point, they are fighting each other on comparable terms, as colliding and pushing against each other and Sonic forcing Shadow to dodge his attacks multiple times, indicating that such attacks were a threat to him. This would cause negative ramifications for Base Sonic's scaling, and I'm not fond of using "outlier" to just handwave most things when I believe there is a consistent solution in downgrading Metal Overlord to 2-C

That's my take on this at the moment

 

[Chariot190]

That doesn't quite work imo.
We know Shadow got stronger.
We are told in game that Shadow and Sonic are equal in agility, strength and speed in base, before Shadow made any progress in power.

Shadow deliberately sandbagged at the end, and let Sonic think he won and swapped the Emerald with a fake, but it's also true he said he didn't want to use anything that gave him in edge, he would win on equal terms, or not at all. Because of this, we know he never did end up using anything that would put him past Sonic's level, even if he contemplated using a Doom Spear, before opting not to.

Now, if we were to assume Sonic and Shadow were equal in stats, and Sonic was equal to Doom 3/4 Shadow, this would contradict the very same game itself, as it would mean Shadow pre-buff, scales to Shadow post-buffs, when we know that isn't actually true, as Shadow prebuff is equal to Sonic, who is being framed as scaling to said Shadow.

Really, it's such a minor contrivence that the game basically goes out of it's way to excuse canonically.

 

[Da3ggman]

I’m also still for Low 1-C MO.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That doesn't quite work imo.
We know Shadow got stronger.
We are told in game that Shadow and Sonic are equal in agility, strength and speed in base, before Shadow made any progress in power.

Shadow deliberately sandbagged at the end, and let Sonic think he won and swapped the Emerald with a fake, but it's also true he said he didn't want to use anything that gave him in edge, he would win on equal terms, or not at all. Because of this, we know he never did end up using anything that would put him past Sonic's level, even if he contemplated using a Doom Spear, before opting not to.

Now, if we were to assume Sonic and Shadow were equal in stats, and Sonic was equal to Doom 3/4 Shadow, this would contradict the very same game itself, as it would mean Shadow pre-buff, scales to Shadow post-buffs, when we know that isn't actually true, as Shadow prebuff is equal to Sonic, who is being framed as scaling to said Shadow.

Really, it's such a minor contrivence that the game basically goes out of it's way to excuse canonically.

I think my biggest question is if we're told as such about Sonic and Shadow in Generations specifically. I do understand this is gonna make me sound some type of way, but if that's not the case in Generations, then I think that would allow for Shadow to be inferior in base and then at Sonic's level once he's got these Doom Powers amping his stats (beyond the abilities they're giving him).

If so, then I suppose the explanation is that Shadow is initially holding back to his base state's level of power, and then contemplates using his actual full power at the time before deciding against it and getting mogged

 

[Chariot190]

I think my biggest question is if we're told as such about Sonic and Shadow in Generations specifically. I do understand this is gonna make me sound some type of way, but if that's not the case in Generations, then I think that would allow for Shadow to be inferior in base and then at Sonic's level once he's got these Doom Powers amping his stats (beyond the abilities they're giving him).

If so, then I suppose the explanation is that Shadow is initially holding back to his base state's level of power, and then contemplates using his actual full power at the time before deciding against it and getting mogged

They were yeah, we checked the bios, and Omega at the start says so too. They started off as equal in strength (Omega), speed, and agility (Sonic gen Shadow bio)

 

[JJSliderman]

The problem is that Mephiles, the same Mephiles from ‘06, also fights Shadow post Overlord, without any indication he was training or achieved a new mutation like Biolizaed.

 

[Chariot190]

The problem is that Mephiles, the same Mephiles from ‘06, also fights Shadow post Overlord, without any indication he was training or achieved a new mutation like Biolizaed.

Clover in the last thread showed evidence of Meph having differences from his 06 state.
Oddly, I think Meph is also aware that it's post 06 too? But that's beside the point.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The problem is that Mephiles, the same Mephiles from ‘06, also fights Shadow post Overlord, without any indication he was training or achieved a new mutation like Biolizaed.

Mephiles from '06 is High 3-A. There's also the argument that this Mephiles copied Shadow before fighting him, which is sorta asserted by him having new powers.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

I think my biggest question is if we're told as such about Sonic and Shadow in Generations specifically. I do understand this is gonna make me sound some type of way, but if that's not the case in Generations, then I think that would allow for Shadow to be inferior in base and then at Sonic's level once he's got these Doom Powers amping his stats (beyond the abilities they're giving him).

If so, then I suppose the explanation is that Shadow is initially holding back to his base state's level of power, and then contemplates using his actual full power at the time before deciding against it and getting mogged

I think we're just overthinking it, tbh. It's obvious Shadow threw the fight on purpose. Pair that with the fact that he was sneak attacked while actively not focusing and trying not to use his power, it doesn't make any implications on Sonic and Shadow's equality in power base-to-base. This argument has so much tedium to think about more than what it is that it's better just left to the wayside.

 

[JJSliderman]

Mephiles from '06 is High 3-A. There's also the argument that this Mephiles copied Shadow before fighting him, which is sorta asserted by him having new powers.

How would he copy Shadow if Shadow didn’t really touch the scepter and he didn’t come out of Shadow’s…shadow, this time.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Clover in the last thread showed evidence of Meph having differences from his 06 state.
Oddly, I think Meph is also aware that it's post 06 too? But that's beside the point.

Primarily, Mephiles uses abilities that initially required Chaos Emeralds for him to be able to do, without having any of them

They were yeah, we checked the bios, and Omega at the start says so too. They started off as equal in strength (Omega), speed, and agility (Sonic gen Shadow bio)

Ngl I thought you meant Omega as in Omegabronic for a moment and was mad confused. I suppose this works then. I was concerned about any potential ramifications, but it looks like there won't really be any negative ones, as any affected characters are in their own scaling bubbles with no impact on anything else

If we consider Shadow to be holding back to his base form's level of power when fighting Sonic, and then contemplating on using his full power at the time only to decide against it and get clapped, then I think I'd find Low 1-C acceptable for Metal Overlord

 

[CloverDragon03]

How would he copy Shadow if Shadow didn’t really touch the scepter and he didn’t come out of Shadow’s…shadow, this time.

I remember Omega mentioning he had an argument for it, which I'm at least interested to hear

 

[Chariot190]

How would he copy Shadow if Shadow didn’t really touch the scepter and he didn’t come out of Shadow’s…shadow, this time.

Idk why can he do the funny new stuff he couldn't before.

Primarily, Mephiles uses abilities that initially required Chaos Emeralds for him to be able to do, without having any of them

Well, that's still an unknown, he's evidently stronger, more potent, whatever, how he managed to do so doesn't change the fact he is different so using him as a counter doesn't work much the same way Shadow himself doesn't work. They're unknown variables, they can be however strong the following scenes implicate even if contrived.

Ngl I thought you meant Omega as in Omegabronic for a moment and was mad confused.

Nah E-123 omega.

 

[JJSliderman]

Problem is I’m trying to think of a lore reason for Overlord being Low 1-C, and the only two theories I have are either

-The combo of base form level characters is low 1-C

-Chaos is Low 1-C

If it is the latter then that would be a decent reason for other characters scaling.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Don't start

 

[Ghengiroo115]

With the blatant Sonic > MO statement being unused, I’m neutral on basically everything as any interpretation seems fairly valid to me.

 

[Chariot190]

Problem is I’m trying to think of a lore reason for Overlord being Low 1-C, and the only two theories I have are either

-The combo of base form level characters is low 1-C

-Chaos is Low 1-C

If it is the latter then that would be a decent reason for other characters scaling.

Bro it's a funny hedgehog game filled with DBZ levels of power escalation (which also doesn't make sense, they cover infinite gaps via finite multipliers). He just is, probably the combination of everything, not one specific thing. Regardless, we don't know why he is, he just upscales because that's the yap, working backwards won't work unless they explicitly say something like "oh he hit the peak of his power via Chaos" or whatever.

 

[CloverDragon03]

With the blatant Sonic > MO statement being unused, I’m neutral on basically everything as any interpretation seems fairly valid to me.

Ngl that's what gets me most, like I feel like I'd still be strongly disagreeing with Low 1-C if it wasn't for the fact that the statement is unused. That just kinda hurts ngl

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Problem is I’m trying to think of a lore reason for Overlord being Low 1-C, and the only two theories I have are either

-The combo of base form level characters is low 1-C

-Chaos is Low 1-C

If it is the latter then that would be a decent reason for other characters scaling.

The lore reason is that his copy ability is just built different, that’s it.

Ngl that's what gets me most, like I feel like I'd still be strongly disagreeing with Low 1-C if it wasn't for the fact that the statement is unused. That just kinda hurts ngl

I said this before, but considering how the English one is worded this would’ve been a lot more streamlined if it was in the game lol. We’d objectively have either 2-C MO or Tier 1 base cast.

 

[Causalist]

I think Metal Overlord should stay 1-C, but a Low 1-C downgrade works for now with what's currently accepted

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah I’m ngl don’t like that.

We blatantly use unused statements for ‘06. That’s where Shadow closing portals with his chaos energy comes from.

Either we should get rid of that in the future or use the unused statements here.

 

[Omegabronic]

I remember Omega mentioning he had an argument for it, which I'm at least interested to hear

I will make that its own thread sometime after this... it requires a number of words lol

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The lore reason is that his copy ability is just built different, that’s it.

That scrap metal hit different

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah I’m ngl don’t like that.

We blatantly use unused statements for ‘06. That’s where Shadow closing portals with his chaos energy comes from.

Either we should get rid of that in the future or use the unused statements here.

Yeah, uh, that would need to go, unused statements the same as cut content. They're noncanon. It'd be like making humans in pokemon ******* freaks that need to be put away on sight. Or like, idk, giving Link an Adult/Child Mask in MM because it's in the files but cut, or whatever tf is going on with some of those cut From Soft bosses with cut lore yap.

If Shadow still does it, and it's shown, and it's the only logical conclusion and all that cut line did was affirm it, I'd still say it might be ok to use if there's no other explanation, but that's beside the point.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Yeah, uh, that would need to go, unused statements the same as cut content. They're noncanon. It'd be like making humans in pokemon ******* freaks that need to be put away on sight. Or like, idk, giving Link an Adult/Child Mask in MM because it's in the files but cut, or whatever tf is going on with some of those cut From Soft bosses with cut lore yap.

If Shadow still does it, and it's shown, and it's the only logical conclusion and all that cut line did was affirm it, I'd still say it might be ok to use if there's no other explanation, but that's beside the point.

I don't recall Shadow ever closing any sort of dimensional portal

 

[CloverDragon03]

I will make that its own thread sometime after this... it requires a number of words lol

Ngl man idk how to feel about another thread on this matter, I'd rather it be done ASAP since the ideal is that after this and the other new thread, all the changes can be made at once

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah I’m ngl don’t like that.

We blatantly use unused statements for ‘06. That’s where Shadow closing portals with his chaos energy comes from.

Either we should get rid of that in the future or use the unused statements here.

... that is unused? If so it should be removed

To be discussed in anothet thread... maybe i can tackle this in the future Mephiles thread

 

[JJSliderman]

... that is unused? If so it should be removed

To be discussed in anothet thread... maybe i can tackle this in the future Mephiles thread

Oh no, I was mistaken. I thought there was some unused line for ‘06 but it wasn’t the dimensional portal one.
Nvm.

 

[Chariot190]

Oh no, I was mistaken. I thought there was some unused line for ‘06 but it wasn’t the dimensional portal one.
Nvm.

Boy.

 

[JJSliderman]

Ik, I’m a bit dumb sometimes.
A lot of the time.