Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]

[StretchSebe]

@StretchSebe Don’t investigate drama, please. No need to mock others.

I agree.

Maybe you should consider I just repeated Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara's comment to someone else back at her, and consider who started instigating

Yeah, how do we even know the dreams aren't space-times, anyway, Fuji? Based on what?

“"Welcome to Future Dream! This is a world created from "dreams of space."

"Everyone holds a yearning for space. We'll have an exciting time within those unending dreams!"

("endless" is also a valid interpretation over “unending”)
Agnaa (here and here) has pointed out that while Future Dream is called “endless/unending”, it doesn't necessarily mean that in a spatial sense. While most initially believed this statement implied infinite spatial size, upon looking further into the context, he agrees that Eldstar is likely referring to Future Dream in the sense that it will last forever. Hakanai has also specified that it uses the phrase “endless/unending dream”, which uses the term “Hatenai yume (はてないユメ)”.

Hatenai yume isn’t the most frequently used phrase, and interpretation wise its usage for unending / endless dreams can be meant both in terms of it going on eternally, the dream never stopping to exist because people always dream of space, or the dream being spatially infinite. However, considering the context of what Eldstar is speaking of, the former makes much more sense. He’s speaking about a dream that’s created from many dreams, and that EVERYONE holds a yearning for space. The sentence reads much better as him saying that they’ll have a great time within the dreams that will never end, as people are always dreaming of space. If they wanted to be more clear with the interpretation of this being an infinite space spatially, it would be more clear to refer to it as an infinite world, or even infinite space. But instead he calls them unending dreams.

By her own admission, and by the translator's translation, this place has space and time.

Again, what are we even waffling about? Just how infinite or finite the spacetime is?

 

[Deagonx]

Just how infinite or finite the spacetime is?

The size, yes.

 

[StretchSebe]

You think you're so clever, don't you?

Nope

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

By her own admission, and by the translator's translation, this place has space and time.

Again, what are we even waffling about? Just how infinite or finite the spacetime is?

I would appreciate it if you people read the Universe page on the wiki:

• If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
• Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.

 

[Omnificence]

I would appreciate it if you people read the Universe page on the wiki:

• If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
• Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.

I would appreciate it if you took into account the time and dimensions these dreams have instead of just galaxies and are not just the size of galaxies, but you don't. And what if the dimensions are potentially 4-D?

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Shouldnt cutout also be affected by the void? Its above space and time. 2-A shouldnt it be?

 

[Omnificence]

Shouldnt cutout also be affected by the void? Its above space and time. 2-A shouldnt it be?

Yeah.

 

[StretchSebe]

I would appreciate it if you people read the Universe page on the wiki:

• If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
• Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.

I see we're just figuring out new talking points.

Dreams are pocket dimensions now? Interesting theory.

Please don't back away from you admitting they're spacetimes.

 

[Omnificence]

If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.

So, the dreams possessing several galaxies and their own space and time by your logic doesn't make them universes? Yeah, that doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Shouldnt cutout also be affected by the void? It’s above space and time. 2-A shouldnt it be?

The Void couldn’t affect the Woah Zone, which just exists beyond space. It wouldn’t be able to affect something transcending space and time.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

So, the dreams possessing several galaxies and their own space and time by your logic doesn't make them universes? Yeah, that doesn't make sense at all.

The dreams do not possess “several galaxies”? Provide proof of this if you’ve got it please, because so far they’ve only contained starry skies and nebulas

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I gotta agree with Fuji here. The evidence for it being larger than galaxy sized doesn't really convince me.

I’m in the same boat for now after reading the whole thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I see we're just figuring out new talking points.

Dreams are pocket dimensions now? Interesting theory.

Please don't back away from you admitting they're spacetimes.

Oh my god please just read the first entry. This part very explicitly confirms that being a space-time is meaningless unless the realm is spatially big enough.
If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.

Shouldnt cutout also be affected by the void? Its above space and time. 2-A shouldnt it be?

Not the place for this.

I would appreciate it if you took into account the time and dimensions these dreams have instead of just galaxies and are not just the size of galaxies, but you don't. And what if the dimensions are potentially 4-D?

"What if", indeed. We don't give characters ratings based on unproven hypotheticals. Also, I literally linked the site standards that say being a space-time isn't enough to qualify for low 2-C in the post you're quoting, so I have to question if you're even reading my posts.

 

[Omnificence]

The dreams do not possess “several galaxies”? Provide proof of this if you’ve got it please, because so far they’ve only contained starry skies and nebulas

If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes

Did you not say the dreams are galaxy-sized? I told you the Dream World is compiled of dream locations that are the size of galaxies if you played the game, and Luigi is clearly shown to manipulate the time and space in them. But you still think those two are 4-A

The Dream World has its own galaxies as well as its time and space. Therefore, it should be a universe

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

The Void couldn’t affect the Woah Zone, which just exists beyond space. It wouldn’t be able to affect something transcending space and time.

The void was said to destroy everything ?

Space time should at least be a 5D structure since in Mario Galaxy (Matter Splatter Galaxy) Mario goes to a Super/Hyper/Extreme/Ultra Translation here. And here which should be a space that transcends

“but its a hyperbole”
Then why can Mario phase through?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491_sD30NYg&t=36s
Its similar to how a 4D object would anyways

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The void was said to destroy everything ?

Space time should at least be a 5D structure since in Mario Galaxy (Matter Splatter Galaxy) Mario goes to a Super/Hyper/Extreme/Ultra Translation here. And here which should be a space that transcends

“but its a hyperbole”
Then why can Mario phase through?

Its similar to how a 4D object would anyways

Please god do not derail this thread with talk of low 1-C Mario, we're suffering enough in here as it is.

 

[Deagonx]

Dream World is compiled of locations that are the size of galaxies if you played the game, and Luigi is clearly shown to manipulate the time and space in them. But you still think those are 4-A

The Dream World has its own galaxies as well as its time and space

Please provide the scans or evidence you have for it containing multiple galaxies. All I've seen are stars in the background which would just be galaxy level singular.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Please god do not derail this thread

Aight cool, just providing input for why i disagree

we're suffering enough in here as it is.

Nobody is suffering lolmao ?

 

[Omnificence]

Please provide the scans or evidence you have for it containing multiple galaxies. All I've seen are stars in the background which would just be galaxy level singular.

Ahem...

There's no implication the dimensions in these dreams are 4-A. From what we already know, the dreams have there own constellations, countless stars, nebulas, and dimensions, and I just wanna note, when Luigi becomes one with the dream world, he's able to manipulate both space and time in it, which should imply these worlds have their own space-time. We don't have any proof these dimensions are only starry skies or anything like that.

Convinced?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

The void was said to destroy everything ?

Space time should at least be a 5D structure since in Mario Galaxy (Matter Splatter Galaxy) Mario goes to a Super/Hyper/Extreme/Ultra Translation here. And here which should be a space that transcends

“but its a hyperbole”
Then why can Mario phase through?

Its similar to how a 4D object would anyways

Can we save low 1C for another time lol, that is a massive can of worms in of itself

The Void (IN ENGLISH) is stated to destroy everything, we could pick at it with the JPN translations if one really wants to though, iirc Bleck only says it’ll destroy “all worlds”.

That statement doesn’t remove the fact that the void is intended to always be looming in the background due to its range, but it’s conspicuously absent and not visible in the Woah Zone or Dimension D, which are very particular details imho, esp when the Woah Zone is noted to be beyond space, meaning the Void likely can’t affect anything beyond the multiverse’s basic space and time.

Anyways, 5D stuff is an entirely separate can of worms completely unrelated to Dream cosmology stuff, please open a different thread for that.

 

[Deagonx]

Ahem...

Convinced?

Those are just amounts of stars. Nothing to suggest billions, so I am not convinced personally. 3-C should he fine for this.

 

[StretchSebe]

Oh my god please just read the first entry. This part very explicitly confirms that being a space-time is meaningless unless the realm is spatially big enough.
If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.

I did read it. And it is because of that and double checking the universal tiering standards that this wiki actually uses that I think you're trying to make excuses for the fact that even you admit dreams are spacetimes. Maybe you should re-read my first entry?

Can we save low 1C for another time lol, that is a massive can of worms in of itself

Fair enough.

 

[Omnificence]

Those are just amounts of stars. Nothing to suggest billions, so I am not convinced personally. 3-C should he fine for this.

Late to the party:

The 'starry skies only proves 4-A at most' and similar arguments/points are an inherently fallacious argument. Saying we can 'only observe' a certain amount of a given spacetime (yes, spacetime. More on that later), and therefore we can only assume as much as we can observe is literally an argument from ignorance. And given this could apply to literally any series that hasn't shown literally the entirety of its universe and/or time, I think we should put this specific argument to bed forever.

Here's a couple facts about our own universe:

• It is constantly expanding. It has been doing so since it's inception.
• The amount of ours we've observed is only about 46.5 billion lightyears in any direction, and is roughly 93 billion light years total. Though estimates and theories on the actual size range from us only observing 5% of the entire universe to even space being infinite (largely due to constant expansion; entropy is beyond the scope of this discussion) professionals, and more digestibly, Wikipedia acknowledges our current agnosticism as a species: 'the spatial size, if any, of the entire universe is unknown.' We've barely observed our own universe, and nobody worth their salt is going to pretend they know size otherwise.

On that, and because of these facts, for 'universe' levels, this wiki recognizes:

• 3-A (Universe level) as: "Characters who can destroy all celestial bodies within a volume at least equivalent to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion, alternately create or significantly affect[1] a universe of comparable size, which does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time." (more on this soon)
• High 3-A (High Universe level) as: "Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space. This extends to an infinite number of finite or infinite-sized 3-D universes or pocket dimensions when not accounting for when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time. Large numbers of infinite 3-D universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier."
• And Low 2-C (Universe+) as: "Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting,[1] creating, and/or destroying an area of space qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:
  A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.
  B) Portrayed as completely transcending lower-dimensional objects and spaces in the setting of a given work of fiction.

This has already been discussed and established in numerous threads, but even by the admission of this initial post:

Dreams contain space and time in this verse.

This immediately means any given dream is an entire spacetime, making it more than just any 'observable universe' and at the very least High Universe sized by the rules of the wiki. But we're talking about more than one dream. Lots of dreams, even. The cosmology isn't one 'big dream' or something. No amount of 'well we only see x amount' changes this fact.

Tl;dr: Thread starter is unsound: Founded upon an inherently fallacious argument from ignorance. Literally using the wiki's primary example of this fallacy as its structure: "There is no evidence of A, so A cannot possibly be true." But there is evidence, provided within this thread starter of all places, and that can be found otherwise discussed on this wiki. We're literally running so far back in terms of what's seemingly acceptable evidence from the series and concepts within it that we're stagnating at pre-Super Mario Bros 2 and it's dreamworld with its own distinct spacetime in it in terms of the information this post is suggesting we can know, accept, or use for a series that's been around for 40+ years.

Disagree. Don't call boiling water while stoned on thc cough syrup 'cooking. '

 

[Deagonx]

I saw that too. A spatiotemporal realm isn't automatically a specific tier depending on how large it is, which is the subject of the discussion at hand.

 

[Omnificence]

Those are just amounts of stars. Nothing to suggest billions, so I am not convinced personally. 3-C should he fine for this.

You're still not taking into account the time, space and dimensions. That should make it bigger than 3-C combined with all the galaxy-sized locations.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You're still not taking into account the time, space and dimensions. That should make it bigger than 3-C combined with all the galaxy-sized locations.

He literally did, though...

I saw that too. A spatiotemporal realm isn't automatically a specific tier depending on how large it is, which is the subject of the discussion at hand.

 

[Omnificence]

He literally did, though...

Where, then? Where did he take into account the contents of it? Cuz I don't see him saying anything about the time, space, and dimensions in that reply. And again, seeing as how the Dream World has a galaxy in each location, paired with space and time, how does that not prove its a universe?

 

[StretchSebe]

I saw that too. A spatiotemporal realm isn't automatically a specific tier depending on how large it is, which is the subject of the discussion at hand.

So again: We're changing language now.

I know the initial argument was that dreams are not uni sized, but now you and Mad seem to also be adding and/or suggesting they are actually instead 'pocket dimensions.' Or 'realms.' Or something that isn't it's own spacetime despite the initial post explicitly conceding they were even as arguing they were lesser in size because..?

 

[Deagonx]

Or 'realms.' Or something that isn't it's own spacetime

A realm or a pocket dimension is its own spacetime.

 

[Omnificence]

A realm or a pocket dimension is its own spacetime.

Then every pocket dimension containing a starry sky or a galaxy or so on would be a space-time continuum, no?

 

[Deagonx]

Then every pocket dimension containing a starry sky or a galaxy would be a space-time continuum.

A starry sky sized space time continuum wouldn't be universe level just for being an independent space time continuum. That's the point being made.

 

[Omnificence]

A starry sky sized space time continuum wouldn't be universe level just for being an independent space time continuum. That's the point being made.

Again, NOTHING suggests time in the dreams are starry sky-sized. How many times have I told you that? You have any proof that the time in it is actually a starry sky?

 

[Deagonx]

Again, NOTHING suggests time in the dreams are starry sky-sized. How many times have I told you that? You have any proof that the time in it is actually a starry sky?

Well I asked for proof of them being galaxy sized and everything you sent was just pictures of stars, so.

 

[Omnificence]

Well I asked for proof of them being galaxy sized and everything you sent was just pictures of stars, so.

And I asked for proof of the dimensions and time being galaxy-sized, and all you and your friends said they were 4-A without proof.

 

[Deagonx]

And I asked for proof of the dimensions and time being galaxy-sized, and all you and your friends said they were 4-A without proof.

Okay but why would we assume they're bigger than that without evidence of them being bigger than that?

 

[omegabronic]

And? Even if you were to assume that all the locations in the Dream World were galaxy-sized, it doesn't mean the Dream World itself is only the size of a galaxy. The Dream World would be the size of multiple galaxies in that case. And you'd still have to account for the dimensions in these locations.

not picking a horse in this race, but if that i the logic you are using, wouldn't it be better to just grab the visuals and try to calc the size of them yourself based on the elements you are saying?

 

[StretchSebe]

A realm or a pocket dimension is its own spacetime.

A spacetime, you say?

I wonder how much of that spacetime needs to be literally observed for us to know it's there. Like maybe with our own observable universe. I mean, we only observe so many galaxies. How much is here to know we live in a spacetime, let alone a universe?

This is a fallacy: An argument from ignorance. We're also ignoring the literal standards of the wiki to be continuing this debate with this specific point that's already been conceded...

Also on ignorance, gonna repost this cosmology thread covering way may of the actual structuring and sizing of the cosmology for this verse from... oh, only a month ago.

Loooooot there we discussed before that just isn't mentioned or discussed here. For whatever reason.

 

[Deagonx]

This is a fallacy: An argument from ignorance. We're also ignoring the literal standards of the wiki to be continuing this debate with this specific point that's already been concede

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I might be misunderstanding your argument so I want to clarify.

Are you saying that I am committing this fallacy "argument from ignorance" in that I agree with the downgrade due to the lack of the evidence, characterizing that stance as assuming it can't be true because there isn't evidence for it?

 

[Omnificence]

Well I asked for proof of them being galaxy sized and everything you sent was just pictures of stars, so.

Btw, that was one of the locations containing it.

 

[SeijiSetto]

And I asked for proof of the dimensions and time being galaxy-sized, and all you and your friends said they were 4-A without proof.

i don't really care for the outcome of this thread but i noticed while lurking you keep bringing up time like it means something here.

i don't think anyone is in disagreement with dreams being separated-space times.

the key argument for any separate space-time continuum to be Low 2-C is to be spatially equal to or bigger than our own observable universe.

the size of the time dimension/axis (which, by nature of being a space-time continuum, is uncountably infinite) is not a factor.

if the space isn't universal in scope then that's it.