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Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]

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Based on nothing? The Dream World has its own space, time, endless abysses, and dimensions; it doesn't just contain a bunch of nebulae or starry skies and it has more than just 2,500 stars. And you still think that's 4-A? Yeah, I don't think you're getting the size of them at all.
Space, time, and dimensions can be 4-A if they aren't big enough. Having more than 2500 stars is meaningless, since the gap between 4-A and higher tiers is astronomical; You could have millions of stars and it still wouldn't be a fraction of a percent of the universe.

And about that endless abyss... that's literally just a hole. Nothing says it's endless. You made that up lol
 
Space, time, and dimensions can be 4-A if they aren't big enough. Having more than 2500 stars is meaningless, since the gap between 4-A and higher tiers is astronomical; You could have millions of stars and it still wouldn't be a fraction of a percent of the universe.

And about that endless abyss... that's literally just a hole. Nothing says it's endless. You made that up lol
Nothing in the scan proves the dimensions or time are the size of starry skies, though. In fact, I don't even see any stars in the scan with the dimensions. Even if you were to assume that all of the things in each location of the Dream World were the size of starry skies, combined it'd still make it bigger than that.
 
One major argument would be that, In Dream Team, multiple locations can be seen with full starry skies or nebulae in the sky, implying they have some sort of large cosmic scope to them. However, simple starry skies or nebulae aren’t enough to denote universal size. Galaxies can contain tens of thousands of nebulae and over a hundred billion stars within them, and the universe contains upwards of 20 trillion galaxies within it. It would take an astronomical amount of dreams of the currently shown size in Dream Team, in order to reach universal size. So no, just because dreams appear to contain space, starry skies, or nebulae within, does not justifiably mean they’re universal in scope.
The Dream Depot goes on ad infinitum, so at worst, it's universe level, tier 3-A, based on the logic in the quoted paragraph.
Dreams containing entire dimensions is notable, but not particularly relevant. As per our universe standards, dimensions can qualify as universes but only if they possess sufficient size; As in, a dimension with size comparable to our own universe would, of course, be a universe, but would not be a universe if it was only shown to contain a starry sky. It’s a similar case for the space-time argument; Being a space-time continuum is all well and good, but it ultimately means nothing if the space in question is not demonstrably universe sized.
As many dreams use real life as a basis, which takes place in the universe, a dreamer dreams of real life and then it gets converted into a dream world, so the "dimension" is universal in scope.
 
1. Where is it stated that the Dream Depot goes on ad infinitum?

2. We cannot rate dreams any higher than what is shown or stated in the series. Saying "dreams are based on reality, therefore they have to be universes" is completely unfounded, so please bring evidence of this or drop the point.
 
1. Where is it stated that the Dream Depot goes on ad infinitum?

2. We cannot rate dreams any higher than what is shown or stated in the series. Saying "dreams are based on reality, therefore they have to be universes" is completely unfounded, so please bring evidence of this or drop the point.
The Dream Depot is where all dreams go, meaning that many dreams continuously and regularly get added to it.

If a story shows our universe and acknowledges it as this, then shows a parallel "world" without specifying that the parallel world is a universe, then to my standards, unless "world" means "planet", that parallel world should probably be considered as a universe, because the word "parallel" in this case means "a thing that is similar or analogous to another", and the word "world" in this case refers to the thing being a reality like our own, which is a universe. The dream worlds weren't precisely described as parallel worlds, but we know that a lot of them are.
 
If a story shows our universe and acknowledges it as this, then shows a parallel "world" without specifying that the parallel world is a universe, then to my standards, unless "world" means "planet", that parallel world should probably be considered as a universe, because the word "parallel" in this case means "a thing that is similar or analogous to another", and the word "world" in this case refers to the thing being a reality like our own, which is a universe. The dream worlds weren't precisely described as parallel worlds, but we know that they are.
"Even if nothing says they're parallel, we should treat them like they are anyways". No?? That's not how that works at all; The games give zero indication that there exists trillions of times more space in a dream than we ever actually see, and so we have no reason to assume that. Even though dreams do reflect reality to some extent via recreating specific real-world locations, that doesn't mean they reflect all of existence all at once. They're likely just recreating that lone location.
 
"Even if nothing says they're parallel, we should treat them like they are anyways". No?? That's not how that works at all; The games give zero indication that there exists trillions of times more space in a dream than we ever actually see, and so we have no reason to assume that. Even though dreams do reflect reality to some extent via recreating specific real-world locations, that doesn't mean they reflect all of existence all at once. They're likely just recreating that lone location.
Your response suggests that statements as evidence are a prerequisite, even though evidence can be in other forms. I wrote that we know that the worlds are parallel even though they haven't been plainly described in that way, not that "nothing says" it as in "there's no indication" of it.
 
Your response suggests that statements as evidence are a prerequisite, even though evidence can be in other forms. I wrote that we know that the worlds are parallel even though they haven't been plainly described in that way, not that "nothing says" it as in "there's no indication" of it.
Let me rephrase that; There is no indication, visual or otherwise, that would suggest that dreams are reflections of the entirety of reality, rather than just the small sections we see in game.
 
Let me rephrase that; There is no indication, visual or otherwise, that would suggest that dreams are reflections of the entirety of reality, rather than just the small sections we see in game.
That's more reasonable. I have taken a lot more than what I wrote into consideration though, so I have some more explaining to do.
 
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Kirbonic_Pikmin @Swordsaint456 @SuperStar

And even if everything in a dream from the time, space, and dimensions are the size of galaxies or starry skies, so what? That doesn't mean the dream itself IS the size of a galaxy/starry sky or anything smaller than that. If anything, all the galaxy/starry sky-sized contents of the dream combined would make it even larger than that. And it's only the background, space, and skies that are galaxy/starry sky-sized, not including the time and dimensions.
 
I meaaaaan it does looks like there's something akin to galaxies there. If they're called worlds/dimensions, if they have space and time and if they have galaxies n loads of stars, is there any actual reason to argue for low tiers? We don't need to prove a universe is universal in size every time there's a feat of destroying the world within our universe right?
We kind of do, yes. OP tackles this but people here are really underestimating the gargantuan size of the universe compared to a simple starry sky, nebulae, or even galaxy.

Then why not settle for a Low 2-C for the Dream Stone?
Dream Stone doesn’t contain all dreams, just the ones provably on Pill’o Island. It would apply to exclusively Dream Depot.

If that approach is taken, it'd be Low 2-C at best without further context I think, and that's just for the totality of all dreams
I did discuss this idea with Fuji about if the infinite dreamers interpretation was taken resulting in a single low 2-c space, but I honestly couldn’t think of a single instance on this site where that was allowed and she was pretty sure the standards just didn’t allow for it so we left it out.
 
Dream Stone doesn’t contain all dreams, just the ones provably on Pill’o Island. It would apply to exclusively Dream Depot.
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Kirbonic_Pikmin @Swordsaint456 @SuperStar

And even if everything in a dream from the time, space, and dimensions are the size of galaxies or starry skies, so what? That doesn't mean the dream itself IS the size of a galaxy/starry sky or anything smaller than that. If anything, all the galaxy/starry sky-sized contents of the dream combined would make it even larger than that. And it's only the background, space, and skies that are galaxy/starry sky-sized, not including the time and dimensions.
 
I strongly disagree and no offense; the OP is bringing up a bunch of dreadful points that either contradict each other or focused on less than stellar tactics than trying to argue a point. As well as an over obsession with beating a dead horse.

First of all, what's with the inconsistency of going back and forth between being "Pro English localization" and "Pro Japanese guide"? That in itself is contradictory as there are clearly universal statement regardless of which version one uses. Saying "Some statements are more reliable in English while others have the Japanese statement more reliable" with the only part of the pattern being consistent with the OP is merely downgrade for the sake of downgrade does not sit right. Especially since it clearly says universe in the same version that said galaxy earlier. And before someone tries to knit pick what "Dream of the Universe" means, all statements Misstar mentions are referring to what each universe contains.

  • Future Dream: The fascinating dream of the universe continues
  • Toy Dream: The fun and exciting dream of toys continues
  • Sweet Dream: We can still savor the sweet delicious dream of candy
So in other words, Dream of the Universe clearly refers to the dream itself being the universe or containing the universe. Keep in mind, that the Japanese kanji 銀河 (ginga) can refer to galaxy or universe given the word was first coined back when Ancient Shintoism/Taoism thought the Milky Way Galaxy was infinite in size aka a Universe. If the sentence where they said galaxy said Endless/Infinite in Japanese. What does "Dream of the Universe" say in Japanese? But either way, both versions mention criteria to be considered universes in the universe page.

Also, I don't need to go over Dream Worlds being parallel. Or that all dreams in dream team have starry skies and their own space-time. But nobody mentioned Subcon being brought up in the previous thread that there are as many Subcons as their are dreamers and that a single Subcon also had it's own description of being a universe.
 
I'll be able to respond to this more thoroughly in a few hours, but I will respond to Subcon since we did have a response prepared for that (we just chose not to include it since we wanted to keep the CRT focused on Future Dream and Dream Team).
 
Although the original post makes plenty of sense, I have other thoughts...

People can dream and have those dreams use real life as a basis, meaning that they had a dream that took place in a parallel and fictional version of the universe. The Dream Depot converts that fiction into a "world", meant in the context of "reality", which should be universal in scope based on the logic of the previous sentence, and the logic that I provided in a few previous messages. Obviously, zero characters are literally simulating an entire universe in their dreams, so one could argue that it's possible that, even if a dream is stated to be a universe, a dream world made from it still wouldn't qualify as a universe. However, as the Dream Depot turns fiction into reality and must account for the fictional narrative of dreams of real life taking place within the real life as the dreamers know it, being a universe, it's likely that the dream worlds are universes anyway.

As a counter to the previous paragraph, one could argue that there isn't evidence that the Dream Depot fully converts the dreams of universes into the full universes, and it could instead only convert what's most relevant to the dream. My answer is... Instead of exclusively factoring in the blatantly provided facts, why not look at author intention and the circumstances as a whole? Who except for analyzers like us would give the slightest bother about thinking of the Dream Depot this way? The next paragraph elaborates on this.

The name "Future Dream" implies that the dreamer conceived what the future of their real life would be like, which goes beyond Earth, and "time" beyond Earth in real life, referring to the entire concept of the future rather than a specific net of space-time or just the Earth's rotation relative to the Sun, is on a universal scale. Most people would think of time this way, rather than specifically being on a galactic scale because a dream took place in a galaxy. The Dream Depot already defies most of science, proved that it operates on a cosmic scale, is intended to be a means of wish fulfillment for big dreamers like Mario, as well as being intended to amaze the players of the game with its wonders. Additionally, it's highly likely that the Dream Depot creates separate temporal dimensions for each of the dream worlds, so that one person's potential time manipulation in one dream wouldn't interfere with every other dream. With that being established, I prefer to believe that the creators of Mario Party 5 didn't go against the fantastical nature of the Dream Depot being only limited by imagination, and that they intended for there to be more than meets the eye at the Dream Depot. I doubt that the creators of the game thought that the reality that is Future Dream ended at being a galaxy just because that's the extent of .

I should clarify that, although it's true that a "world" can mean as little as a biome in the Super Mario series, in this case, it doesn't refer to a level in a video game, so it's not like the galactic clusters being worlds in the Super Mario Galaxy games. In most cases, most people don't define "world" as a cluster of stars or a galaxy. It's usually either a planet, a universe, a society, or something political. Technically, by definition of the word "world", the burden on proof is on the downgrade side to prove that there is an unconventional usage of the word "world", being referred to as many stars or galaxies that don't have inhabitants. We know that the dream worlds are beyond planets, so by definition, with there not being societies and politics in the stars, the word "world" likely refers to a universe. I understand that the VS Battles Wiki values statements being specific about this though, so I don't expect this idea to make the biggest difference.

I should clarify that the Dream Depot was also described merely as a land where everyone's dreams come together, which isn't a multiverse. However, with everything I wrote factored in on top of that, the Dream Depot should be a tier Low 2-C structure at the very least. Due to the way that the Dream Depot was depicted during the credits of Mario Party 5, mixed with how the dream worlds of Mario & Luigi: Dream Team are treated as separate, it's likely that the Dream Depot is more than just a "land" anyway.
 
Based on nothing? The Dream World has its own space, time, endless abysses, and dimensions; it doesn't just contain a bunch of nebulae or starry skies and it has more than just 2,500 stars. And you still think that's the size of a 4-A structure? Yeah, I don't think you're getting the size of them at all.
Nothing you said here proves universal size lol. The endless abyss point is also a massive extrapolation, for one the abyss literally ends because Mario falls out of it, and there’s no statement about its size at any point, it’s just an attack visual.

Please re-read the part of OP where we discuss the absurdity of cosmic size and how even billions of stars would not be uni.

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Kirbonic_Pikmin @Swordsaint456 @SuperStar

And even if everything in a dream from the time, space, and dimensions are the size of galaxies or starry skies, so what? That doesn't mean the dream itself IS the size of a galaxy/starry sky or anything smaller than that. If anything, all the galaxy/starry sky-sized contents of the dream combined would make it even larger than that. And it's only the background, space, and skies that are galaxy/starry sky-sized, not including the time and dimensions.
Again literally nothing here proves universal size even when combined together. Dreams haven’t shown anything uni in size. Several verses are stuck at 4A when they only have feats of starry skies being affected.

And to be frank, we’ve only seen a handful of dreams that actually contain cosmic scope, all the ones we’ve seen with cosmic scope together combined, would not add up to anything more than MSS either lol.

First of all, what's with the inconsistency of going back and forth between being "Pro English localization" and "Pro Japanese guide"? That in itself is contradictory as there are clearly universal statement regardless of which version one uses. Saying "Some statements are more reliable in English while others have the Japanese statement more reliable" with the only part of the pattern being consistent with the OP is merely downgrade for the sake of downgrade does not sit right. Especially since it clearly says universe in the same version that said galaxy earlier. And before someone tries to knit pick what "Dream of the Universe" means, all statements Misstar mentions are referring to what each universe contains.

  • Future Dream: The fascinating dream of the universe continues
  • Toy Dream: The fun and exciting dream of toys continues
  • Sweet Dream: We can still savor the sweet delicious dream of candy
Uh, we pretty consistently rely on the Japanese translations. The only stuff we bring up for the English translations are evidence in favor of dreams being uni that is currently accepted, and one line about the English translating something one way and the likely reason it was done.

Otherwise the entirety of this CRT Is using JPN text as the foundation. The main reason we even mentioned the ENG manual instead of the JPN one is, because to my knowledge and research, the Japanese Mario Party 5 manual isn’t available online and would have to be purchased lol. I already went through the process of purchasing and importing the Japanese guide since it wasn’t available online, and couldn’t waste the time and money to buy a Japanese copy of the game for it either, so I had to use the Eng version. Also yes my translator is working on scanning the guide so it can be made fully public as well.

I also didn’t bring this up in OP as it wasn’t relevant, but in the JP text every single dream in MP5 except Bowsers is stated to be a collective dream. Dreams of toys, dreams of sweets, dreams of space, etc. it’s another thing the ENG translation fumbled on that annoyed the shit out of my translator lol.


Although the original post makes plenty of sense, I have other thoughts...

People can dream and have those dreams use real life as a basis, meaning that they had a dream that took place in a parallel and fictional version of the universe. The Dream Depot converts that fiction into a "world", meant in the context of "reality", which should be universal in scope based on the logic of the previous sentence, and the logic that I provided in a few previous messages. Obviously, zero characters are literally simulating an entire universe in their dreams, so one could argue that it's possible that, even if a dream is stated to be a universe, a dream world made from it still wouldn't qualify as a universe. However, as the Dream Depot turns fiction into reality and must account for the fictional narrative of dreams of real life taking place within the real life as the dreamers know it, being a universe, it's likely that the dream worlds are universes anyway.

As a counter to the previous paragraph, one could argue that there isn't evidence that the Dream Depot fully converts the dreams of universes into the full universes, and it could instead only convert what's most relevant to the dream. My answer is... Instead of exclusively factoring in the blatantly provided facts, why not look at author intention and the circumstances as a whole? Who except for analyzers like us would give the slightest bother about thinking of the Dream Depot this way? The next paragraph elaborates on this.
I think a lot of this is just massive amounts of extrapolation and not really how dream feats are viewed, otherwise damn near every dream feat ever would end up being uni. Considering most dreams in MP5 are very innocuous things that amount to house or island sized spaces, with Future Dream just being a space station in space, I don’t think it was exactly the developers intention to have people analyzing about the exact sizes of the physical space of dreams, I seriously doubt they intended for them to be entire universes in size either.
 
Also there’s a lot of messages coming at once and I didn’t even get to cover everything I need to. I have to go to work soon but I still have things I want to reply to, with DDMs post esp, but I have to talk with my translator for it specifically.
 
Again literally nothing here proves universal size even when combined together. Dreams haven’t shown anything uni in size. Several verses are stuck at 4A when they only have feats of starry skies being affected.
You still just don't get. Even if all the contents in the dreams such as the dimensions, space, and time were galaxy/starry sky-sized like Fuji said, it doesn't make the dream the size of a galaxy or starry sky. If anything, when you combined the three, it would make the dream bigger than that. I'm not saying the dreams are universes; I'm going over the size of them. Pay attention.

Again, nothing in the game shows the dimensions or time being the size of galaxies or starry skies. Time doesn't have a shape because we can't physically see the concept and nobody even knows how big these dimensions are in the dreams. So, you can't assume the time and dimensions are simply galaxies or starry skies without evidence otherwise. And you certainly can't leave out those two contents in the dreams.
 
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I think a lot of this is just massive amounts of extrapolation and not really how dream feats are viewed, otherwise damn near every dream feat ever would end up being uni. Considering most dreams in MP5 are very innocuous things that amount to house or island sized spaces, with Future Dream just being a space station in space, I don’t think it was exactly the developers intention to have people analyzing about the exact sizes of the physical space of dreams, I seriously doubt they intended for them to be entire universes in size either.
It's true that I used some extrapolation, but it can be a useful tool to discover possible truths, rather than just an excuse for making baseless assumptions. Based on the reasoning I provided, I think there's a good chance, albeit not a certainty, that "world" was meant as in "universe".

I agree that the developers didn't intend for us to think about this deeply, but the reason why we think about fiction deeply is to be careful with how we rank characters on the VS Battles Wiki. My idea came naturally to me, but it took some time to put it into words and account for how other people think, since that's part of the process of justifying rankings on the VS Battles Wiki.
 
So in other words, Dream of the Universe clearly refers to the dream itself being the universe or containing the universe. Keep in mind, that the Japanese kanji 銀河 (ginga) can refer to galaxy or universe given the word was first coined back when Ancient Shintoism/Taoism thought the Milky Way Galaxy was infinite in size aka a Universe. If the sentence where they said galaxy said Endless/Infinite in Japanese. What does "Dream of the Universe" say in Japanese? But either way, both versions mention criteria to be considered universes in the universe page.
There is no point I’ve found in the original JPN text that uses the word ginga when describing future dream, so this point ultimately wouldn’t affect Future Dream in the end, as it uses just exclusively uchuu and uchuu kuukan. My entire point of the English translation using galaxy was that they likely did it just out of confusion, as uchuu isn’t really clarified in cosmic scope outside of “space”, so they likely just slapped galaxy onto it.

However, that aside, even if it did use ginga, your point here doesn’t make any sense. The etymology of the word here isn’t relevant, and its origin hundreds of years ago within Buddhist belief doesn’t reflect what the word means nowadays in modern dictionaries, which solely mean galaxy / the Milky Way. Not even referring to it as infinite, just as the galaxy. A lot of words have different contexts within Buddhism, and Mario clearly isn’t using the Buddhist meaning of words like ginga, considering that a couple years after MP5 it went on to make Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, which use ginga and showcase pretty clear modern depictions of the modern meaning and understanding of galaxy.
 
There is no point I’ve found in the original JPN text that uses the word ginga when describing future dream, so this point ultimately wouldn’t affect Future Dream in the end, as it uses just exclusively uchuu and uchuu kuukan. My entire point of the English translation using galaxy was that they likely did it just out of confusion, as uchuu isn’t really clarified in cosmic scope outside of “space”, so they likely just slapped galaxy onto it.

However, that aside, even if it did use ginga, your point here doesn’t make any sense. The etymology of the word here isn’t relevant, and its origin hundreds of years ago within Buddhist belief doesn’t reflect what the word means nowadays in modern dictionaries, which solely mean galaxy / the Milky Way. Not even referring to it as infinite, just as the galaxy. A lot of words have different contexts within Buddhism, and Mario clearly isn’t using the Buddhist meaning of words like ginga, considering that a couple years after MP5 it went on to make Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, which use ginga and showcase pretty clear modern depictions of the modern meaning and understanding of galaxy.
That only weakens the counterargument since Uchu means universe. And the Endless/Infinite statements exist still in the Japanese version.
 
That only weakens the counterargument since Uchu means universe. And the Endless/Infinite statements exist still in the Japanese version.
Think OP addressed the Endless/Infinite stuff being more about the dream lasting forever rather than being physically infinite, pretty well.
Agnaa (here and here) has pointed out that while Future Dream is called “endless/unending”, it doesn't necessarily mean that in a spatial sense. While most initially believed this statement implied infinite spatial size, upon looking further into the context, he agrees that Eldstar is likely referring to Future Dream in the sense that it will last forever. Hakanai has also specified that it uses the phrase “endless/unending dream”, which uses the term “Hatenai yume (はてないユメ)”.

Hatenai yume isn’t the most frequently used phrase, and interpretation wise its usage for unending / endless dreams can be meant both in terms of it going on eternally, the dream never stopping to exist because people always dream of space, or the dream being spatially infinite. However, considering the context of what Eldstar is speaking of, the former makes much more sense. He’s speaking about a dream that’s created from many dreams, and that EVERYONE holds a yearning for space. The sentence reads much better as him saying that they’ll have a great time within the dreams that will never end, as people are always dreaming of space. If they wanted to be more clear with the interpretation of this being an infinite space spatially, it would be more clear to refer to it as an infinite world, or even infinite space. But instead he calls them unending dreams.
 
Think OP addressed the Endless/Infinite stuff being more about the dream lasting forever rather than being physically infinite, pretty well.
Are you really just gonna ignore the size of the contents of the dreams? Have you even seen the arguments addressed here?
Space, time, and dimensions can be 4-A if they aren't big enough. Having more than 2500 stars is meaningless, since the gap between 4-A and higher tiers is astronomical; You could have millions of stars and it still wouldn't be a fraction of a percent of the universe.
There is no point I’ve found in the original JPN text that uses the word ginga when describing future dream, so this point ultimately wouldn’t affect Future Dream in the end, as it uses just exclusively uchuu and uchuu kuukan. My entire point of the English translation using galaxy was that they likely did it just out of confusion, as uchuu isn’t really clarified in cosmic scope outside of “space”, so they likely just slapped galaxy onto it.

However, that aside, even if it did use ginga, your point here doesn’t make any sense. The etymology of the word here isn’t relevant, and its origin hundreds of years ago within Buddhist belief doesn’t reflect what the word means nowadays in modern dictionaries, which solely mean galaxy / the Milky Way. Not even referring to it as infinite, just as the galaxy. A lot of words have different contexts within Buddhism, and Mario clearly isn’t using the Buddhist meaning of words like ginga, considering that a couple years after MP5 it went on to make Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, which use ginga and showcase pretty clear modern depictions of the modern meaning and understanding of galaxy.
I ask you again, where's the proof that these dimensions and time are 4-A? What scans show that they're starry sky-sized or galaxy-sized? And even if they are, everything else that's galaxy or starry sky-sized like the space, sky, and background should make the dream as a whole bigger than the size of galaxies or starry skies?
 
Are you really just gonna ignore the size of the contents of the dreams?
Just saying that the Endless statement probably ain't usable
I ask you again, where's the proof that these dimensions and time are 4-A? What scans show that they're starry sky-sized or galaxy-sized? And even if they are, everything else that's galaxy or starry sky-sized like the space, sky, and background should make the dream as a whole bigger than the size of galaxies or starry skies?
We haven't been shown explicit proof that they're larger than 4-A, assuming a larger size would be speculative. Can't prove a negative lol
 
We haven't been shown explicit proof that they're larger than 4-A, assuming a larger size would be speculative. Can't prove a negative lol
You don't even have any proof that the dimensions or time are only 4-A, and even if you did, when you combined everything else that's 4-A like the space, and background, it'd still make the Dream World larger than 4-A or 3-C. What don't you understand about that? Even if everything in a dream is 4-A, from the dimensions to the time as well as anything else, it'd still make it larger than a damn starry sky.
 
You don't even have any proof that the dimensions or time are only 4-A, and even if you did, when you combined everything else that's 4-A like the space, and background, it'd still make the Dream World larger than 4-A or 3-C. What don't you understand about that?
The universe kinda exceeds these scales, like millions of times bigger.
 
That only weakens the counterargument since Uchu means universe. And the Endless/Infinite statements exist still in the Japanese version.
I tackled this in the original post, but no, Uchuu doesn’t mean exclusively universe, it has multiple meanings, with the main one being a blanket statement of “space”, and Uchuu kuukan is even used, which is explicitly just “outer space”, not universe. “Universe” and “cosmos” are other meanings of Uchuu, it’s a multi meaning word, and “space” is the most applicable meaning here.

Not to mention, there’s a word explicitly FOR “universe” in Japanese, being “Zenuchuu (全宇宙)”, which means universe / all of space. Bowser himself even uses this term in Galaxy 1 to refer to the entire universe and his takeover of it. Meaning that if they truly wanted to entail Future Dream as universal in size and scope, a term like that would have been more appropriate to refer to it as. Instead, Uchuu and Uchuu Kuukan are used, much more general phrases meaning space or outer space. Considering that the Dream is about a space station and the exploration of space, that lines up.

And again, the word infinite is never used in JPN, just Hatenai Yume, which is unending/endless dream, with everyone who has reviewed the sentence’s meaning saying it aligns best with it being a dream that just lasts forever, not one that’s spatially infinite, which would not support infinite size arguments.

The evidence presented in these sentences alone just isn’t enough to qualify as universal in size, nor spatially infinite.

I think one thing that should be made clear with all of this is that if Mario’s entire basis for dream cosmology being Multi/Multi+ is based off of two sentences with vague and unclear wording, it’s probably not a very solid basis

Are you really just gonna ignore the size of the contents of the dreams? Have you even seen the arguments addressed here?


I ask you again, where's the proof that these dimensions and time are 4-A? What scans show that they're starry sky-sized or galaxy-sized? And even if they are, everything else that's galaxy or starry sky-sized like the space, sky, and background should make the dream as a whole bigger than the size of galaxies or starry skies?
Click to expand...
Once again, please read the part of OP labeled “Conclusion” until the end, it’s covered with scans exhaustively there.

Dimensions aren’t inherently universal either. They have to be probably so. Pocket dimensions with their own space time are very common in fiction and exist, often getting 4A ratings.

The universe kinda exceeds these scales, like millions of times bigger.
Backing up Adem further, The universe contains at least 20 trillion galaxies so the scale difference is massive, yes.
 
Once again, please read the part of OP labeled “Conclusion” until the end, it’s covered with scans exhaustively there.

Dimensions aren’t inherently universal either. They have to be probably so. Pocket dimensions with their own space time are very common in fiction and exist, often getting 4A ratings.
You never once proved that the dimensions or time are anywhere close to Multi-Solar System level. There's no place in Dream Team that implies or shows that they are, and like I said for the last and final time, even if all that stuff was Multi-Solar System level combined with all the supposed starry sky/galaxy-sized space, skies, and background, it doesn't make the dream itself the size of a galaxy or starry sky. All that starry sky or galaxy-sized stuff in the dream combined would have to imply the dream is larger than a mere galaxy or starry sky. Why can't you understand this? Why are you not taking into account the space these starry sky or galaxy-sized contents in these dreams combined could make the dream itself potentially bigger? It may not make them universal, but it certainly doesn't just make them the size of a galaxy.

Quit simply calling these dreams measly starry skies/galaxies without looking at the contents of them. You're just not getting the point.
 
You never once proved that the dimensions or time are anywhere close to Multi-Solar System level. There's no place in Dream Team that implies or shows that they are, and like I said for the last and final time, even if all that stuff was Multi-Solar System level combined with all the supposed starry sky/galaxy-sized space, skies, and background, it doesn't make the dream itself the size of a galaxy or starry sky. All that starry sky or galaxy-sized stuff in the dream combined would have to imply the dream is larger than a mere galaxy or starry sky. Why can't you understand this? Why are you not taking into account the space these starry sky or galaxy-sized contents in these dreams combined could make the dream itself potentially bigger? It may not make them universal, but it certainly doesn't just make them the size of a galaxy.
I don’t want to be rude, but you’re the one who’s not really understanding anything. There is no proof that these dimensions/dreams are universal in size. All that there is is the visual proof we are given, said proof is only 4A in size, therefore, dreams are 4A in size. If we cannot prove the dream is larger than the space we see within it, we cannot say it is larger than the space within it.
 
@JTGamer96 A giant space filled with stars in the background is 4-A. The contents of these dreams that are constantly stated by you are 4-A to 3-C at best.

Starry sky? 4-A
Galaxy-sized space? 3-C if true
Skies and background? Means nothing without context (and in context, this is 4-A to 3-C at best)

You're basically saying "This shouldn't only be 4-A, look at these 4-A things it has"
 
I don’t want to be rude, but you’re the one who’s not really understanding anything. There is no proof that these dimensions/dreams are universal in size. All that there is is the visual proof we are given, said proof is only 4A in size, therefore, dreams are 4A in size. If we cannot prove the dream is larger than the space we see within it, we cannot say it is larger than the space within it.
No, you're not understanding anything. You keep saying the dreams are only 4-A but you're not taking into account the contents they can contain and instead are assuming they're only 4-A or 3-C.
 
@JTGamer96 A giant space filled with stars in the background is 4-A. The contents of these dreams that are constantly stated by you are 4-A to 3-C at best.

Starry sky? 4-A
Galaxy-sized space? 3-C if true
Skies and background? Means nothing without context (and in context, this is 4-A to 3-C at best)

You're basically saying "This shouldn't only be 4-A, look at these 4-A things it has"
4-A backgrounds just means 4-A at minimum and can be supporting evidence for Universes when other details are taken into account.

I tackled this in the original post, but no, Uchuu doesn’t mean exclusively universe, it has multiple meanings, with the main one being a blanket statement of “space”, and Uchuu kuukan is even used, which is explicitly just “outer space”, not universe. “Universe” and “cosmos” are other meanings of Uchuu, it’s a multi meaning word, and “space” is the most applicable meaning here.
I know it has multiple synonyms, but its default definition is a universal body of space. Plenty of multilinguistic members and especially Executor N0 have said it numerous times iirc.
Think OP addressed the Endless/Infinite stuff being more about the dream lasting forever rather than being physically infinite, pretty well.
That is another assumption. But it's supporting evidence of Future Dream being a timeline if that is the case. But either way, it says in the universe page that whether or not Endless/Infinite is hyperbolic or not or referring to its time rather than size, it is still supporting evidence of being universe.
 
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