Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]

[Omnificence]

Okay but why would we assume they're bigger than that without evidence of them being bigger than that?

Because nothing implies they're the size of galaxies. We don't even know how big the time and dimensions are in these dreams, so to say they're only the size of galaxies without direct evidence for that is just an assumption. Time doesn't have size to it because it's a metaphysical concept that we can't interact or see.

i don't really care for the outcome of this thread but i noticed while lurking you keep bringing up time like it means something here.

i don't think anyone is in disagreement with dreams being separated-space times.

the key argument for any separate space-time continuum to be Low 2-C is to be spatially equal to or bigger than our own observable universe.

the size of the time dimension/axis (which, by nature of being a space-time continuum, is uncountably infinite) is not a factor.

if the space isn't universal in scope then that's it.

Isn't the OP suggesting that all the dreams in the Dream World are galaxies? Didn't you or anyone else play Mario and Luigi: Dream Team and notice that the locations in the Dream World had galaxy-like backgrounds? Why do you keep ignoring the time and space in the Dream World as well as the galaxies? If the Dream World has its own locations/dreams that are the galaxies as well as its own time and space, how does that not make it a universe? All the other dreams in Mario Party 5 were shown to be comparable in size to the Future Dream which is stated to be a universe by the game and manual.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Because nothing implies they're the size of galaxies. We don't even know how big the time and dimensions are in these dreams, so to say they're only the size of galaxies without direct evidence for that is just an assumption. Time doesn't have size to it because it's a metaphysical concept that we can't interact or see.

Is the OP not suggesting that all the dreams are galaxies? Of the Dream World has its own locations/dreams galaxies as well as its own time and space, how does that not make it a universe? All the other dreams in Mario Party 5 were shown to be comparable in size to the Future Dream which is stated to be a universe by the game and manual.

The dimensions that can be created within dreams aren't shown to be of any demonstrably notable sizes. They're either depicted as somewhat small or just a vague void of indeterminate size. That can't really grant anything worthwhile without further evidence, of which there is none. If we "do not know" the size of something, we cannot assume some random massive size without evidence.

OP is suggesting dreams would get knocked down to Multi Solar System, as that's all they've been shown to contain, with maybe feats such as Dream Stone being galaxy due to having a large amount of dreams at play.

If a dream has its own space-time and contains a starry sky, then its a Multi Solar System sized pocket dimension with its own spacetime, and thus not universal. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this. I could name multiple verses which have feats like this that are not granted universal due to lack of evidence and only 4A presentation.

The other dreams in MP5 are NOT shown to be comparable in size at all, every other MP5 dream is a relatively small location, like the side of a mountain, a kingdom in the clouds, a large castle, etc. Nothing at all cosmic in scope BESIDES Future Dream, which is a space station in space. The manual does not state Future Dream to be a universe, as discussed in OP, and OP also goes over the issues with how the game refers to Future Dream as well.

 

[Armorchompy]

I've read the OP- I find it agreeable overall but I would like to hear a summary of the counterarguments before I cast my opinion.

One nitpick

Future Dream would no longer be a universe, instead becoming Multi-Solar System due to the moderately large amount of stars visible within its background, and scaling to the size of dreams in Dream Team.

Is that if it's assumed to be the sum combined of every other dream, Future Dream would probably be High 3-A given that it's composed of the dreams of infinite dreamers.

 

[Omnificence]

The dimensions that can be created within dreams aren't shown to be of any demonstrably notable sizes. They're either depicted as somewhat small or just a vague void of indeterminate size. That can't really grant anything worthwhile without further evidence, of which there is none.

OP is suggesting dreams would get knocked down to Multi Solar System, as that's all they've been shown to contain, with maybe feats such as Dream Stone being galaxy due to having a large amount of dreams at play.

If a dream has its own space-time and contains a starry sky, then its a Multi Solar System sized pocket dimension with its own spacetime, and thus not universal. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this. I could name multiple verses which have feats like this that are not granted universal due to lack of evidence and only 4A presentation.

Did I not suggest that the locations in the Dream World are the size of galaxies and have its own space and time several times? Haven't we been over multiple times that the locations are galaxies?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I've read the OP- I find it agreeable overall but I would like to hear a summary of the counterarguments before I cast my opinion.

One nitpick

Is that if it's assumed to be the sum combined of every other dream, Future Dream would probably be High 3-A given that it's composed of the dreams of infinite dreamers.

I wouldn't be against this as a compromise if its deemed that an infinite quantity of dreamers results in just specifically Future Dream being H3A due to it being a cumulative dream about space. It would simply add one more universe to the count of the Void's destruction then.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Did I not suggest that the locations in the Dream World are the size of galaxies and have its own space and time several times? Haven't we been over multiple times that the locations are galaxies?

No we haven't actually, nobody has provided proof of anything that's actually galaxy-sized for dreams, only MSS.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Did I not suggest that the locations in the Dream World are the size of galaxies and have its own space and time several times? Haven't we been over multiple times that the locations are galaxies?

having its own space-time and being big enough to contain galaxies ≠ Low 2-C
having its own space-time and being equal to or larger than our observable universe = Low 2-C

you are repeating yourself. a lot.

 

[Omnificence]

having its own space-time and being big enough to contain galaxies ≠ Low 2-C
having its own space-time and being equal to or larger than our observable universe = Low 2-C

you are repeating yourself. a lot.

If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.

 

[Omnificence]

And btw, didn't Fuji say 4-A to 3-C here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dream-stone-re-upgrade-crt.158752/post-6052503

 

[Omnificence]

See? Here's the size of a galaxy in Dreamy Neo Bowser's Castle and here's another one.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

you failed to highlight the part where it says “countless galaxies”. Not just “a Galaxy”, a countless amount. An amount that literally cannot be properly counted.

And btw, didn't Fuji say 4-A to 3-C here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dream-stone-re-upgrade-crt.158752/post-6052503

She said 3C being generous, because that’s the absolute highest that the evidence you mentioned could realistically get, and even then, there isn’t really enough evidence for 3C.

See? Here's the size of a galaxy in Dreamy Neo Bowser's Castle and here's another one.

There’s no galaxy in either of these videos, just a shitload of stars in the first and a constellation in the second… both of which are 4B to 4A

 

[Omnificence]

There’s no galaxy in either of these videos, just a shitload of stars in the first and a constellation in the second… both of which are 4B to 4A

How do you even know that they're 4-B to 4-A? Based on what? Just because they have 2,500 stars or several planets in the background? Because there sure seems a lot more than that.

Why should the size of a space-time continuum or evidence of it being a universe matter, anyway? When I worked on the Spawn franchise, I provided scans of there being infinite space-time continuums, but that doesn't mean there was proof of them being the size of actual universes. When Spawn recreated the universe as the Mother, there wasn't any proof of it being the size of a universe. And don't even think about using that whataboutism excuse with me; it doesn't address my point when you do that.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

How do you even know that they're 4-B to 4-A? Based on what? Just because they have 2,500 stars or several planets in the background? Because there sure seems a lot more than that.

Why should the size of a space-time continuum or evidence of it being a universe matter, anyway? When I worked on the Spawn franchise, I provided scans of there being infinite space-time continuums, but that doesn't mean there was proof of them being the size of actual universes. When Spawn recreated the universe as the Mother, there wasn't any proof of it being the size of a universe. And don't even think about using that whataboutism excuse with me; it doesn't address my point when you do that.

You can tell it’s 4B to 4A generally by eyeballing, star or nebula quantity, yes. There’s about 100 billion stars in a single galaxy so if you can prove there’s 100 billion stars in one of those cutscenes that’s probably galaxy sized.

The size of a space time continuum should matter because it is literally the difference between a feat being like island level to a feat being universe level.

You just said to me that it was said “Spawn recreated the universe, but there’s no proof the universe was universe sized”. That literally doesn’t make sense and I don’t know what I should be making sense of here. This Spawn fest seems to have radically different contexts.

If we want to name other verses, I’ll give more relevant examples. In Touhou, Hermit characters can create a separate dimension with its own space time. Without statements of infinite expansion, the largest size we see is that of a starry sky, so it’s treated as a 4A pocket dimension. Final Fantasy has multiple characters who create an alternate dimension for their attacks, with said dimension containing a starry sky, with these characters getting a 4A rating because of this. Soul Calibur characters can be rated 4A due to an alternate dimension containing a starry sky and nebulae, so in and so forth. Mario’s dream feats would be no different to any of the above mentioned feats.

 

[Omnificence]

An amount that literally cannot be properly counted.

So, if I created two galaxies, it can't be counted?

You can tell it’s 4B to 4A generally by eyeballing, star or nebula quantity, yes. There’s about 100 billion stars in a single galaxy so if you can prove there’s 100 billion stars in one of those cutscenes that’s probably galaxy sized.

Then why don't you calculate or count the number of stars in the entire Dream World?

Okay but why would we assume they're bigger than that without evidence of them being bigger than that?

Well, if these dimensions are the size of starry skies, why don't you and the rest of the staff tell us how many dimensions there should be?

 

[Omnificence]

There’s about 100 billion stars in a single galaxy so if you can prove there’s 100 billion stars in one of those cutscenes that’s probably galaxy sized.

100 billion stars, eh? So, what you're saying is everyone's dream which is the size of the Dream World is nothing but a starry sky and all the locations in the Dream World are nothing but starry skies as well. However...

If you take the 100,000 we used for the lowest population in the re-upgrade for the Dream Stone thread, and multiplied it by 2,500 stars which is the number we use for our starry sky feats, along with the ten locations in the Dream World which contains starry skies, you'd get 2,500,000,000 stars, making it the size of 2½ galaxies, making the Dream Stone 3-B. Isn't that right, Fuji and Kirb?

 

[Luckyfun]

Can i use Mario party 5 instruction booklet?

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Can i use Mario party 5 instruction booklet?

Yeah ion see an issue there

 

[Omnificence]

No character ever refers to Future Dream as a universe in size. In the English translation of the game, it's pretty explicitly referred to as a galaxy, which is why the Japanese text is used

And didn't you say right here that the Future Dream is a galaxy? Speaking of which, hey DDM...

Didn't you say "And yeah, Future Dream is just one dream and all the other dreams you enter in Mario Party 5 are mirror dimensions of equal size; the ending credits clearly just shows you Future Dream multiple times and/or has multiple Future Dreams if we see it more than once; more likely the former though" in the Dream Stone Re-upgrade thread?

Doesn't that prove these dreams are galaxy-sized?

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Kirbonic_Pikmin

 

[Omnificence]

Okay but why would we assume they're bigger than that without evidence of them being bigger than that?

Well, if these dimensions are the size of starry skies, why don't you and the rest of the staff tell us how many dimensions there should be?

And if you're about to tell me that there could be infinite or countless of these 4-A dimensions in this Dream World, then by definition it's High 3-A due to possessing infinite matter.

 

[SeijiSetto]

And didn't you say right here that the Future Dream is a galaxy? Speaking of which, hey DDM...

Didn't you say "And yeah, Future Dream is just one dream and all the other dreams you enter in Mario Party 5 are mirror dimensions of equal size; the ending credits clearly just shows you Future Dream multiple times and/or has multiple Future Dreams if we see it more than once; more likely the former though" in the Dream Stone Re-upgrade thread?

Doesn't that prove these dreams are galaxy-sized?

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Kirbonic_Pikmin

non-staff don't have the ability to ping other people, it's not actually doing anything.

If you take the 100,000 we used for the lowest population in the re-upgrade for the Dream Stone thread, and multiplied it by 2,500 stars which is the number we use for our starry sky feats, along with the ten locations in the Dream World which contains starry skies, you'd get 2,500,000,000 stars, making it the size of 2½ galaxies, making the Dream Stone 3-B. Isn't that right, Fuji and Kirb?

do remember that 3-B also includes the space between galaxies. a single galaxy with 2.5 galaxies worth of stars is just that - a galaxy, albeit very dense.

 

[Omnificence]

do remember that 3-B also includes the space between galaxies. a single galaxy with 2.5 galaxies worth of stars is just that - a galaxy, albeit very dense.

Is this really your reason for not supporting a 3-B? Just because two things in one isn't equally spaced out means it can't be larger in size?

Read what I said again...

And didn't you say right here that the Future Dream is a galaxy? Speaking of which, hey DDM...

Didn't you say "And yeah, Future Dream is just one dream and all the other dreams you enter in Mario Party 5 are mirror dimensions of equal size; the ending credits clearly just shows you Future Dream multiple times and/or has multiple Future Dreams if we see it more than once; more likely the former though" in the Dream Stone Re-upgrade thread?

Doesn't that prove these dreams are galaxy-sized?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I thought of some advice. If you take my advice, the results should be recorded somewhere where they can be accessed conveniently instead of letting them get drowned in this thread.

Sorry if this was already done and I hadn't seen it, but it would be a good idea to check the Japanese version Mario & Luigi: Dream Team when Dreambert said that the Zeekeeper traveled dimensions. Maybe this can give us insight on the nature of those dimensions. During Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, Professor E. Gadd used the word "dimension" to describe King Boo having the potential to destroy the universe, which is currently accepted by the VS Battles Wiki as universal environmental destruction over time by King Boo. Perhaps the Japanese version of this statement and the Japanese version of Dreambert's statement have a similarity or difference that can give us insight on what Dreambert meant by "dimension". Professor E. Gadd is a super scientist and Dreambert is very knowledgeable about dream worlds, so they are both reliable sources. Perhaps analyzing the aforementioned information will help us determine once and for all whether or not dream worlds are universes.

 

[Omnificence]

What tier are you arguing for then?

Because if they’re not Universes then Fuji’s proposal would be correct.

Is it not obvious what I'm proposing?

It would take 25, using the same formula used to calc destroying 2 starry skies and 3-C's 1.053e66 baseline.



Other than that, I do vote for dreams being 3-B, as some kind of actual (though small) contribution to this thread instead of waltzing in and being "ummm, ackthually" to some guesstimate.

100 billion stars, eh? So, what you're saying is everyone's dream which is the size of the Dream World is nothing but a starry sky and all the locations in the Dream World are nothing but starry skies as well. However...

If you take the 100,000 we used for the lowest population in the re-upgrade for the Dream Stone thread, and multiplied it by 2,500 stars which is the number we use for our starry sky feats, along with the ten locations in the Dream World which contains starry skies, you'd get 2,500,000,000 stars, making it the size of 2½ galaxies, making the Dream Stone 3-B. Isn't that right, Fuji and Kirb?

And didn't you say right here that the Future Dream is a galaxy? Speaking of which, hey DDM...

Didn't you say "And yeah, Future Dream is just one dream and all the other dreams you enter in Mario Party 5 are mirror dimensions of equal size; the ending credits clearly just shows you Future Dream multiple times and/or has multiple Future Dreams if we see it more than once; more likely the former though" in the Dream Stone Re-upgrade thread?

Doesn't that prove these dreams are galaxy-sized?

I'm proposing 3-B for the Dream Stone. I mean, I van understand there may be vague evidence to prove these dreams are universes, but based on what the OP stated along with what was brought up from the re-upgrade thread and the math I provided, I believe at the very least it should be 3-B.

Well, if these dimensions are the size of starry skies, why don't you and the rest of the staff tell us how many dimensions there should be?

And if we assumed that there were infinite 4-A dimensions in these dreams since nobody know exactly how many there are, then it should reach up to possibly High 3-A.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Is that if it's assumed to be the sum combined of every other dream, Future Dream would probably be High 3-A given that it's composed of the dreams of infinite dreamers.

I'd be fine with that, yeah.

 

[Omnificence]

I'd be fine with that, yeah.

Thank you. Now, can we PLEASE settle with "At least 3-B, possibly High 3-A" for the Dream Stone? Let's put this ordeal behind us.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still have other strong disagreements, but I need to go to work soon.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Thank you. Now, can we PLEASE settle with "At least 3-B, possibly High 3-A" for the Dream Stone? Let's put this ordeal behind us.

I thought it is the Dream Depot that's infinite, not the Dream Stone. In accordance with the original post of the thread, the Dream Stone would probably be multi-galaxy level without the additional higher possibility.

 

[Omnificence]

I thought it is the Dream Depot that's infinite, not the Dream Stone. In accordance with the original post of the thread, the Dream Stone would probably be multi-galaxy level without the additional higher possibility.

I'm arguing for High 3-A because of the unknown number of dimensions in these dreams.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm arguing for High 3-A because of the unknown number of dimensions in these dreams.

If there's an unknown number of dimensions, then it wouldn't be High 3-A. It'd just be unknown (or 4-A because that's the upper limit of what we see in a dream).

 

[Omnificence]

If there's an unknown number of dimensions, then it wouldn't be High 3-A. It'd just be unknown (or 4-A because that's the upper limit of what we see in a dream).

Then why not just scale the Dream Stone to the Dream Depot?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I'm arguing for High 3-A because of the unknown number of dimensions in these dreams.

I think that you'd have better luck arguing for possibly tier 3-A instead of possibly tier High 3-A.

Then just scale the Dream Stone to the Dream Depot.

Why?

 

[Omnificence]

I think you'd have better luck arguing for possibly tier 3-A instead of possibly tier High 3-A.

Okay, then; "At least 3-B, possibly 3-A" for the Dream Stone. Take it or leave it, people.

 

[Kellex]

It it's unknown, wouldn't it just be Likely far higher?

 

[Omnificence]

It it's unknown, wouldn't it just be Likely far higher?

Final nail in the coffin. "At least 3-B, possibly 3-A, likely far higher". Do we got a deal, everyone?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

It it's unknown, wouldn't it just be Likely far higher?

I think that's a good way to phrase it. "Multi-Galaxy level, likely far higher".

 

[Omnificence]

I think that's a good way to phrase it. "Multi-Galaxy level, likely far higher".

We got a deal, everyone? Last and final offer; take it or leave it.

 

[JJSliderman]

Even if the DT dreams are Multi-Galaxy, they’re still composed of multiple dreams coalescing together. 4 Pi’illos have their dream realms within 20 feet of each other in the Pajamaja Dream area.

 

[Omnificence]

Can somebody ping some staff so we can reach an agreement on "3-B, likely far higher"

 

[Omnificence]

Even if the DT dreams are Multi-Galaxy, they’re still composed of multiple dreams coalescing together. 4 Pi’illos have their dream realms within 20 feet of each other in the Pajamaja Dream area.

True, but that's why we're giving it a "likely far higher"

 

[Omnificence]

I still have other strong disagreements, but I need to go to work soon.

You still wanna list them?