Dragonslayers - Siegfried vs Natsu

[Monarch_Laciel]

Just pointing out that votes based off assumptions such as "the explosions from Natsu's flames will get his weak point" and "Natsu bypasses Armour of Fafnir entirely" are incorrect and any votes based entirely on incorrect assumptions are invalid

 

[DragonEmperor23]

What makes you say that? Why would being attacked by flames on his back not do damage to him? His weakness doesn't specify that he needs to be punched in the back or hit with a special weapon.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I dunno. I may be the OP but I just wanna weigh in my headcanon. It requires sufficient force, and hitting him with an aoe attack from the front won't have the oomph needed to damage his back, kinda like this:

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No

But two clips have been provided of him standing in the area of effect of giant flaming explosions exactly like what Natsu can put out, and not having his weak point affected.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yeah but those explosions aren't Anti Dragon and Natsu hits harder.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Anti-Dragon explosions mean nothing. Dragon Slaying only bypasses the bonus defense against Noble Phantasms, not the passive rank down effect.

Natsu might hit twice as hard as Karna, but that only means the scratches he leaves are two millimetres deep instead of one.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Natsu's explosion is bigger though and would atleast push back Sieg.Okay so looking at his weaknesses Sieg likes to prolong battles and he doesn't use dishonorable tactics. He's also extremely unlucky. This would help Natsu land a blow on his back during the battle.

The dots are people.

What is the ether that Balmung uses?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The size of Natsu's explosion is irrelevant though. If the explosion is completely around you, it doesn't matter how much extra area outside of you it covers.

Also, despite fighting people with better luck than him, and them having AoE attacks as well, none of them were able to hit his back.

Ether is just a sort of magical energy.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Does the armor negate the damage and the force or just the damage? Like if he were hit by some heavy wind would the wind still be able to move him back even when he isn't hurt by it?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Force and damage.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Natsu would eat be able to eat the Balmung Blast then.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

once again Natsu not only has a higher AP, but Dragon Slayer Advantage, the armor isn't useless, but Siegfrieds gonna be fealing a lot more damage from Natsu's Regular attacks then from Karna's Regular Attacks, and Natsu's gonna go for the weak point, which Siegfried won't be expecting Natsu to know

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

once again Natsu not only has a higher AP, but Dragon Slayer Advantage, the armor isn't useless, but Siegfrieds gonna be fealing a lot more damage from Natsu's Regular attacks then from Karna's Regular Attacks, and Natsu's gonna go for the weak point, which Siegfried won't be expecting Natsu to know

No. He won't.

Karna's regular attacks and Natsu's regular attacks are affected exactly the same by the rank down effect. Dragon slaying only removes the bonus defense, not the basic rank down to all attacks.

@DragonEmperor, unlikely. He's not eating an at least High 7-A attack dealing two layers of bonus damage hitting him in the face. He also needs a small bit of time to eat things. Which he won't have when the attack instantly splatters him.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Instantly splatters? How many megatons is it? Natsu scales to being above 578 megatons.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It's at least on the higher end of High 7-A, and that's without the significant bonuses against Dragonkin. That's at least 8 times more powerful than Natsu, and that's without the bonuses

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Just to review the situation, Natsu is fighting someone that can walk through all of his attacks unscathed, none of Natsu's attacks will leave more than a slight scratch on Sieg, and Sieg can oneshot Natsu. Where's the stomp qualifications thread when you need it

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Karna who is 385 megatons, can damage Siegfried even though he has armor, Natsu who is 578 megatons, and has Dragon Slayer Advantage which should Damage Siegfried because his body is that of a Dragon's Skin, even with the Armor, not to mention, that Natsu is a human and isn't a character who has Ranks, therefore he wouldn't be affected by Rank Down, Natsu WILL be laying out Damage, not to mention he knows about Siegfrieds Weakness, but Siegfried doesn't know that he knows, which will catch him off guard, as well Natsu's Rage Power, and the ability to possibly devour Balmungs energy blast, Natsu has eaten Magic far above his tier before, so he should be able to do it here, as well Siegfried doesn't always start out with Balmung and it takes time for him to charge it as a servant, Natsu Takes this with extreme difficulty, but he does take it

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Ranks are just a method of determining how powerful an attack is. At 585 megatons, he'd be about A+ rank. Which means he's only going to be hitting at E+ rank. So not much at all. Siegfried would regenerate from scratches like those in a few seconds.

Balmung also really doesn't take much time to charge. The only reason he can't spam it is because of the cool down.

Siegfreid is also a much more skilled combatant, and would notice if Natsu keeps trying to go for his back.

There is also nothing on Natsu's page about his dragon slayer magic actually explicitly being more effective against dragons.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Natsu also can't devour Balmung. Even if he could actually swallow the whole thing before it obliterates him on impact, he'd literally explode. True Ether is too powerful. When Merlin's uses Garden of Avalon, mages would literally explode simply from breathing its air, simply because the mana of the garden is too powerful.

 

[KaiserReinhardt]

"There is also nothing on Natsu's page about his dragon slayer magic actually explicitly being more effective against dragons."

???

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Nothing in his powers and abilities says "deals more damage against dragons".

Nothing in his "dragon slayer magic" section of his notable techniques says "deals more damage to dragons"

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

No, ranks are an actual thing, Good luck is an actual thing in Fate, and the ranks do matter, Natsu doesn't have these, cause he is human, not a Servant, as for Dragon Slaying Magic, WHAT

Thing is, Natsu's Dragon Slayer Magic is really a huge Boost, someone equal to Natsu in strength used a huge strong attack against a Dragon and it did Nothing, Natsu who was 7-C, used a Casual Punch with his magic against a Dragon who was 7-A the Dragon felt the pain hard, the bonus from Dragon Slaying Magic is like several times greater against Dragons, Not to mention Natsu has Rage Power that has nulled Mid-High Regen, so Siegfrieds Regen could be stopped

 

[KaiserReinhardt]

Dragon slayer magic was made so that humans were able to fight dragons, without dragon slayer magic it would be near impossibal to harm a dragon. It does have a greater effect when used against dragons, that is why it's called "dragon slayer magic".

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Ranks are subject to verse equalisation in a match. Unless you want me to say that Natsu straight up can't damage Siegfreid because, due to not having a rank, his attacks aren't A rank, and thus would be negated entirely.

Then it should be added to his page, because there is nothing saying that right now.

How does the regen negation work? Explain its mechanics to me. Or if they aren't given, who did he negate the regen of?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Natsu's been able to eat Etherion Lacrima which is literally just pure magic, it would be the same for him.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Mana is pure magic. Od is pure magic. Normal Ether is pure magic. True Ether isn't "just pure magic". It's more than that.

Also, the etherion lacrima was literally poisoning him

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Could you explain what's more about it?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

https://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Magical_Energy#Mana

That is "pure magic" like what you would see in Fairy Tale.

https://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Elements#True_Ether

That is True Ether. Something more powerful than basic magical energy, the stuff that gods are made of. Gods in this case being Divine Spirits existing outside the time axis and controlling concepts and causality.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This is going nowhere, none of us are gonna change our minds, let's just wait for others votes

 

[KaiserReinhardt]

I give my vote to natsu for the reason stated above, it will be a hard fought match but natsu knowing about sieg's weakness will give him the edge in this fight.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No it wouldn't.

Siegfried's skill is easily enough to keep Natsu from hitting his back. Even if he doesn't know that Natsu knows his weakness, an enemy trying to get behind you and hit you is hardly an uncommon tactic that he's not going to be watching out for.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I don't think Natsu negated any regen til his High 6-A key.

Also DS Magic properties not being on the file is.....striking to say the least....

I will fix that tomorrow, although I could careless about this match.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

How is back attack a uncommon fighting tactic, people always use it when attacking someone's blind spot.

That's what I said.

"Hardly an uncommon tactic"

As in, "it is not an uncommon tactic".

As in "it is a common tactic."

Knowing that Siegfried has a weakness on his back will do shit-all if he can't ever hit Siegfried's back.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I'm not switching my vote or anything, but according to your argument what makes this fight not a stomp if Sieg negs all of Natsu's attacks and can oneshot Natsu?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

That Natsu has a chance.

A much smaller chance than the chance of Siegfried beating Natsu, but still a chance.

 

[KaiserReinhardt]

Siegfried: 7 (AnonymousBlank, Veloxt1r0kore, Reinhardthrowhisspear, Promestein, Everything12, Monarch Laciel, Homu Sweet Homu)

Natsu: 7 (DemonGodAubin, Captain Scorch, DragonEmperor23, Gargolye One, ZephyrosOmega, ZackMoon1234,KaiserReinhardt)

"Armor of Fafnir has a weakness, a leaf-shaped mark on his back that cannot be covered, allowing even minor attacks to deal severe damage to him." Also it doesn't look like sieg has any fire resistance, how is he gonna deal with natsu's flames burning his back.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

A leaf shaped mark that Natsu is incredibly unlikely to ever actually hit.

Videos have been provided of explosions completely washing over Sieg/fried without hitting his weakness. He could also simply cut through the flames, as he did with Karna repeatedly.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Also, I'm going to point out that in none of Gargoyle's comments has he actually voted for anyone, so I don't know why you are saying he's voting for Natsu

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

To be fair, Natsu has shown to be clever in exploiting his opponent's weakness. Against this thing, he used a huge chuck of rock to finish him off because the things can absorb soul and magic. Against this mofo who can read his mind, Natsu charged at him without thinking....literally and also yells really really loud to beat him since the dude has very sensitive ears.

I still think Sieg win this, but Natsu isn't as pushover as everyone tends to believe when it comes to combat.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I see some people are talking about if ranks equalise between verses. I would say they do not. This is because even through out the Nasuverse, with its many different power systems and entities, the characters from outside the servant system do not have ranks. They may have ranking systems of their own, but it is in no way attributed as an equivolent to the servant ranks out right.