Minamoto no Raikou vs Siegfried

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I mean she had a son called Kintoki so I dunno what you saying there

Correction: Technically a son

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Just to help out; Raikou FRA.

 

[Kflare63]

raiko fra

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

And grace

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Grace ended, this can be added now

 

[Makenai]

Suzuka was constantly dodging and using her three sword simultaneously while stalling to survive against Raikou (on top of her Blessing of Wisdom and the high calculation power it grant). You do know how the + of abilities and NP work right? Because having + only mean that under certain circunstances the ability or NP have a output above its rank, in Balmung case the increase from + activate when facing dragon related beings (like when he faced Mordred and matched her Clarent Blood Arthur) while Ox-King ++ activate when facing mystical beings, reason of why Ox-King isn't going to get overpowered.

Where you get that Raikou need a chant to use clones? Because I don't remember that. Balmung take some time to activate which is noted by the profile itself and the clip I saw of Siegfried vs Mordred support that (I also sort of remember in the manga that he needed some time to use it against Fafnir, though could remember wrong).


The rest of the comment have so many things wrong that I honestly don't think that anything I say will change your opinion, so I will not respond to that part (to begin with is derailment to center and talk so much about Lancelot and Raikou when the fight is with Siegfried). You already said what you had to say and I already said what I had to say, let the rest decide to which side they want to vote.

Forgot this existed, anyway i will just answer this since it would left me a bad taste if I don't answer this.

Ox-King hit Suzuka and failed to kill her despite Raikou has mystical slayer skill so what makes you think Ox-King could do any significant damage to Siegfried?

No, Ox-King has no advantage against a Mystical where did you get that? Please cite the source, also the + modifier for Balmung is not for Dragon but for Army as it is an anti-army NP the same with Ox-King, then tell me about Karna's Brahmastra Kundala an A+ anti-country NP, under what circumstances the + modifier proc?

"Perhaps because Balmung was owned by a king, it specializes in fighting against armies, shooting off a semi-circular slash wave.

- Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Phantasmal Greatsword, Felling of the Sky Demon [Noble Phantasm], p.179

Every NP need true name release so of course to summon her clone Raikou need a true name release too and you misunderstood something, Servant Siegfried being slower than both Sieg with Galvanism and living Siegfried doesn't make his activation slow compared to other NPs in fact it was stated as fast among other beam NP like Ox-King. Sieg vs Mordred with Sieg has yet to have Galvanism so it was false argument.


"Balmung does have a fast activation rate for a so-called beam weapon, but in a comparison of speed, Siegfried when he was alive was the fastest in activating it, with Sieg being the next fastest and the Servant Siegfried being the slowest out of them"

- Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Phantasmal Greatsword, Felling of the Sky Demon [Noble Phantasm], p.179

Also it is very out of Character for a servant to immediately use their NP in a 1v1 fight, so of course they would start with CQC and if it comes to CQC Siegfried would turned Raikou into minced meat and also Raikou didn't know about Siegfried's weakness so it is very unlikely that she will aim for his back.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

This already ended long ago so will only answer (quoting the type moon wiki since they have the references of their info and is easier to just use it) and then ask this to be closed since there is no more point in debate this.

Ox-King hit Suzuka and failed to kill her despite Raikou has mystical slayer skill so what makes you think Ox-King could do any significant damage to Siegfried?

1) Suzuka specifically said to use all the swords she had left as shield to protect herself, so that's why she could lessen the damage enough to survive and even then she still was left in a bad state.
2) I didn't claimed in any point of the thread, as far I remember at least, that she will do significant damage with Ox-King to Siegfried, I said that she would null/cancel Balmung in case Siegfried used it, which is something completely different.

No, Ox-King has no advantage against a Mystical where did you get that? Please cite the source, also the + modifier for Balmung is not for Dragon but for Army as it is an anti-army NP the same with Ox-King, then tell me about Karna's Brahmastra Kundala an A+ anti-country NP, under what circumstances the + modifier proc?

"Perhaps because Balmung was owned by a king, it specializes in fighting against armies, shooting off a semi-circular slash wave.

- Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Phantasmal Greatsword, Felling of the Sky Demon [Noble Phantasm], p.179

You don't know how NP classification work right?

Anti-Unit Noble Phantasms are those specialized against defeating other people in single combat.[6] Compared to stronger weapons, a majority of Anti-Unit Noble Phantasms will not go beyond defeating other beings, no matter how strong the magical energy or curse they wield. Saber's Invisible Air wouldn't increase the speed of an action like chopping wood, and Lancer's Gáe Bolg, which strikes the opponent's heart, would just be a strong lance if the target is a rock or a house. The advantage over stronger weapons is that they can be compared to guns with unlimited ammo while Anti-Army Noble Phantasms are one-time missiles. Missiles are more powerful, but an Anti-Unit can be continuous like Invisible Air. There are also those that are very cost effective like Gáe Bolg, so it can be called a sure-hit arrow that is better at killing single people than a cannonball.

Anti-Army Noble Phantasms are those with a wide enough range to be specialized against armies.[6] They are more powerful weapons than Anti-Unit Noble Phantasms, capable of easily blowing them away, but they must be used more wisely because of their larger cost. Using an A Rank Noble Phantasm takes a great deal of mana, so they must wait before they can use it again.

The difference between anti-unit and anti-army is a matter of range, base power and special power, do to their range and superior base power anti-army NP are said to be specialized to face armies while anti-unit are better in personal combat and have special effects (like the causality shit of Gae Bolg), the only times when the type of a NP actually have a increase of power when used against a specific thing is with more specific types like anti-divine and in those case is because the NP itself have anti-divine properties do to legends that give a boost (like Enkidu chains that do to legends have anti-divine properties).

It is the holy sword of the Nibelungs, used to slay the dragon, Fafnir. It is a cursed holy blade possessing the attributes of Gram, the demonic blade of its origin, so it will change attributes between holy sword and demonic sword depending on who wields it. Having accomplished the feat of dragon slaying, those with the blood of dragons will take additional damage from it.[1][5] Perhaps because it was owned by a king, it specializes in fighting against armies, shooting off a semi-circular slash wave.[5]

Balmung is stronger against dragon related, the specialized against armies only refer to its great range and ability to eliminate an army as literally any anti-army NP, something that anti-unit can't do.

■ Brahmastra Kundala: O Brahma, Curse Me
Rank: A+
Type: Anti-Country Noble Phantasm
Range: 2~90
Maximum Targets: 600 People
The Anti-Country Noble Phantasm Karna got from the Brahman Parashurama.
It is a bow if his class is Archer, in other classes it manifests as a projectile.
Granted Karna's fiery attribute, one blow is likened to a nuclear weapon.

The anti-country classification of Brahmastra Kundala is just because is compared with a nuclear weapon, which is the way in how its immense destructive power is represented.

Every NP need true name release so of course to summon her clone Raikou need a true name release too and you misunderstood something, Servant Siegfried being slower than both Sieg with Galvanism and living Siegfried doesn't make his activation slow compared to other NPs in fact it was stated as fast among other beam NP like Ox-King. Sieg vs Mordred with Sieg has yet to have Galvanism so it was false argument.


"Balmung does have a fast activation rate for a so-called beam weapon, but in a comparison of speed, Siegfried when he was alive was the fastest in activating it, with Sieg being the next fastest and the Servant Siegfried being the slowest out of them"

- Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Phantasmal Greatsword, Felling of the Sky Demon [Noble Phantasm], p.179

Also it is very out of Character for a servant to immediately use their NP in a 1v1 fight, so of course they would start with CQC and if it comes to CQC Siegfried would turned Raikou into minced meat and also Raikou didn't know about Siegfried's weakness so it is very unlikely that she will aim for his back.

You are the one who misunderstood, Raikou don't need to release her true name to summon her clones, as show in her battle against Suzuka when she just summoned the clones the moment she got permission of her master while Suzuka was chanting the true name of her NP.

I said they would begin with their NP? And why would Siegfried turn Raikou in minced meat in CQC if she have comparable skill (she is considerable more skilled but just for argument sake I say they are comparable) to him, have the ability to hurt him and have a far greater versatility? Siegfried is actually a really famous servant so it wouldn't be surprising that she know about him, Siegfried himself could present himself and she could recognize his name, other possibility is she noticing how he protect specially strongly and thus deduce that his weakness is his back which is something realistically possible considering her skill.

Edit: Just noticed but both have prior knowledge so the argument that she don't know to target his back is completely null.