Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

[Qawsedf234]

I'll take Beerus' statement and the fact that Kibito can give Base Gohan a challenge as evidence that they cannot defeat 100% Frieza without transforming.

 

[Damage3245]

I just don't think that lifting a sword is enough evidence to say that Base Saiyans in the Buu Saga > 100% Frieza. Especially when Beerus said that Goku would lose to Frieza without transforming

Huh... That is a good point. That would suggest that 100% Frieza > Base Goku as of the end of DBZ at least.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But doesn't base Goku mandhandle Frieza in the RoF saga without transforming?

 

[ByAsura]

He says he doesn't look like he's strong enough, and I'm fairly sure he's just trying to get him a bit angry for the fight.

@Cal

That's Goku's base after Whis training.

 

[Stefano4444]

> He is still a Kaioshin.
A noted inferior one

But Shin never specifiy that those Kaioshins were stronger than Kibito, while it was imply that in general Kaioshins are stronger than the likes of Frieza and nothing suggest Kibito wasn't comparable with the previous Kaioshins.

Hell i doubt the rank directly equal level of power, Zamasu was an attendant but he was far far stronger than Gowasu.

And all Kaioshin are supposed to have enough power to create stars, which means Kibito must be at miminum Star level, which would make him stronger than 100% Frieza which is only Small Star level.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I just don't think that lifting a sword is enough evidence to say that Base Saiyans in the Buu Saga > 100% Frieza. Especially when Beerus said that Goku would lose to Frieza without transforming

I don't know about the other, I'm saying that Base Saiyans Buu Saga > Frieza just cause Goku was stronger than all 3 forms back as the Frieza Saga and he grew MUCH stronger since

 

[Dark649]

But doesn't base Goku mandhandle Frieza in the RoF saga without transforming?

That was Goku after the power of the SSG for was channeled into his Base state.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But doesn't base Goku mandhandle Frieza in the RoF saga without transforming?

That's after he absorbs SSG into his body. Meaning it was after a large power increase.

> He says he doesn't look like he's strong enough, and I'm fairly sure he's just trying to get him a bit angry for the fight.

He wouldn't need to since Goku was always willing to fight. Beerus had no reason to lie

> And all Kaioshin are supposed to have enough power to create stars

Supreme Kai sure. What evidence does Kibito have of this?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

But doesn't base Goku mandhandle Frieza in the RoF saga without transforming?

They fought equally

And both Manga and Anime state that Goku's power was immense even while he was in base

 

[ByAsura]

He wouldn't know that, would he?

Anyway, if Goku isn't stronger, than that is kind of disappointing, as they hype him so much in the Buu saga start.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

@Cal

In the anime he obtained the God Ki in his base

In the manga... He just trained a lot lmao

 

[Kepekley23]

Quick note that Kibito's Daizenshuu entry states he could give Base Gohan a good fight and Base Gohan in the Buu Saga is much stronger than 100% Freeza.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Beerus can sense power levels, knew Goku killed Frieza, checked him out, and said that he couldn't have done that without transforming. Seems pretty straight foreward, espically when there's no contradicting evidence given in the scene.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. I'll still look through the manga though.

 

[Kepekley23]

Beerus is obviously wrong since Babidi implied Base Gohan was >>>> Piccolo.

 

[Qawsedf234]

When does Babidi say that? Plus unlike Babidi Beerus can sense energy.

 

[Kepekley23]

Babidi can measure their strength relative to each other.

Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Krillin were hidden in the cliffside and Babidi said Piccolo and Krillin were trash while Gohan and the others were a threat. That while they were in base.

 

[ByAsura]

Goku could be suppressed. Characters have powered up at times without using an aura, and he could have done it while using SS.

 

[Kepekley23]

Yeah, he was suppressed. Which makes the gap between him and Piccolo even bigger while he is at FP.

And no, he obviously wasn't using Super Saiyan considering we were seeing him with his normal hair the whole time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Babidi can measure their strength relative to each other.

Babidi didn't measure then, Dabura did. He also used potiental which is different from just standard power.

 

[ByAsura]

I took a look at the scene. Beerus sarcastically says he beat Frieza with a slight power increase. So it's pretty obvious he's either holding back or Beerus is trying to get him a bit angrier.

I looked a little further and found some more evidence he was suppressed or he's lying, as Beerus says he now understands how he beat Frieza, and says he thinks it's the best Goku could do.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If we accept their base as Large Star level, I think the explanation should be changed at least. Lifting a sword isn't the best reasoning for attack power.

 

[Kepekley23]

Babidi didn't measure then, Dabura did. He also used potiental which is different from just standard power.

Not in Herms's translation.

Dabra: "Seems they're trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can't use Kaioshin and Kibito's energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…"

 

[Dark649]

Krillin is indeed far weaker than the others, but Piccolo was hiding his power and was with weightened clothes, i don't think that he is any weaker than Base Goku since he never stopped training and was able to somewhat resist the Cell Jr. attack, Dabura said only that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are interesting because of their MSS to SS2 boosts that surpasses Piccolo, the kili quotes should be not taken literally since are mostly used to display a huge gap between powers and not as literal powerscale, so i agree with Buu Saga Base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta being 4-C.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Like I said earlier. If we keep them as Large Star level, the reasoning needs to be better explained than what was previously offered.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

If we accept their base as Large Star level, I think the explanation should be changed at least. Lifting a sword isn't the best reasoning for attack power.

Well, in the other thread I was suggesting to make them Star level

 

[Stefano4444]

So everyone agree on putting Buu Saga Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan at 4-C, other than agree that they are indeed stronger than 100% Frieza even in Base?

 

[ByAsura]

I found what I was talking about before.

Vegeta has been training for 7 years and states that he'd closed the gap between him and Gohan, which was previously so massive that just half Goku's FPSS ki made Vegeta cry himself to sleep, despite having significantly surpassed Semi-P Cell as Grade 2. This is confirmed later, as Majin Vegeta is much stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games.

Vegeta with this level of power is confident he's more powerful than the others, which include Piccolo and 18 [except Goku in this case, as he doesn't know his true power]. A boast? Probably, but it could be supporting evidence.

 

[Dark649]

Vegeta was boosting since he later said that there was a gap with him and Goku, this is why he let himself being boosted by Babidi M power in order to match Goku.

 

[ByAsura]

I found something even better. Supreme Kai states they surpass him.

@Dark

As I explained, Vegeta states himself he doesn't know Goku's true power and wants to fight him last.

 

[AKM sama]

So what is the conclusion regarding the OP? We disregarded the hypothetical kaioken x10, right? Because everything makes sense now. (Sorry, I did not read the whole thread)

 

[Damage3245]

I found something even better. Supreme Kai states they surpass him.

Surpass him... as Super Saiyans, right?

 

[Qawsedf234]

> This is confirmed later, as Majin Vegeta is much stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games.

While true, it should be noted that Gohan had gotten weaker after the 7 year timeskip. So while Vegeta got stronger, Gohan's max was actively decreasing. Either way according to Majin Vegeta SS2 Goku > Vegeta's standard SS2 form.

 

[ByAsura]

He was talking about the Cell Games Gohan in both cases.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> Surpass him... as Super Saiyans, right?

Yeah. That was right after Goku went SS2 to kill Yakon.

 

[ByAsura]

@Damage

Given the context was Goku and Vegeta having fought beings that Shin was scared of a little, it's probably base.

Edit: I forgot about SS2 like Qaw said, disregard this.

 

[Stefano4444]

> This is confirmed later, as Majin Vegeta is much stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games.
While true, it should be noted that Gohan had gotten weaker after the 7 year timeskip. So while Vegeta got stronger, Gohan's max was actively decreasing. Either way according to Majin Vegeta SS2 Goku > Vegeta's standard SS2 form.

Wait, if Base Gohan has grown weaker since the time of Cell Games but he had still enough power to match Kibito, wouldn't that means that Base Teen Gohan was already reach a power comparable with Kibito?

That would mean that even Cell Games Base Goku was already too stronger than 100% Frieza, making the gap in the Buu Saga even larger than before since he never stop training unlike Gohan.

 

[Dark649]

Reminder that the Mastered Super Saiyan boost power possessed by Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Goku and Vegeta is higher than a Regular SS [that Goku became against Frieza], Grade 2 and 3, Goku, Gohan [Vegeta points out that he is weaker since the Cell Games] and Vegeta also had access to SS2 in the Buu Saga.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> Wait, if a Base Gohan has grown weaker since the time of Cell Games

Its constantly mentioned that Adult Gohan is far weaker than he was 7 years ago

> wouldn't that means that Base Teen Gohan was already stronger than Kibito?

Depends of if the Rage Boost he got in conjuction with the SS2 form was a permant power upgrade is included. Either way Teen Gohan was so strong that he thought Goku was just holding back against Cell, which likely means his base form was pretty strong.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Actually never mind. Rage boost wasn't permanent . But Gohan's base form should be pretty strong either way.