Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

[Stefano4444]

Does nobody find it odd that Piccolo jumps up from something like Massively Hypersonic to 14.37% light speed with a seemingly ordinary Ki blast attack?

And having Piccolo jumps from Small Country level+ to Planet level its somehow more believable?

If DBverse get to have massive jumps of AP because people get so much stronger, having massive jumps of Speed should not be a big deal since people get also much faster as well.

 

[Damage3245]

@ByAsura, this is the page I was talking about earlier with Piccolo.

Piccolo is able to percieve the flash of Frieza's attack but not the attack itself. Suggesting Frieza's final form has FTL attack speed but Piccolo doesn't scale to it.

 

[Kaltias]

He was already MHS+ I think.

Plus it isn't an outlier because the version of Piccolo who is MHS+ feat is leagues below the Relativistic one.

Most of the various speed feats posted by ByAsura support Relativistic as well, that's why it isn't an outlier

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. I thought you were suggesting it was literally light. So we'd use Madara's light speed attack logic (which wasn't accepted. Not saying this won't though).

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Damage3245 Site uses Mach 1784.88 for EoDB Piccolo's speed.which is about 71 times slower than BoDBZ Piccolo's attack speed. Although considering the AP difference is an even larger and extreme gap its not like the jump is impossible.

 

[Stefano4444]

@ByAsura, this is the page I was talking about earlier with Piccolo.
Piccolo is able to percieve the flash of Frieza's attack but not the attack itself. Suggesting Frieza's final form has FTL attack speed but Piccolo doesn't scale to it.

Piccolo stated that the Death Beam looked like a flash of light from his perspective, it doesn't mean it was just moving at FTL speed, it only means the Death Beam was faster than his eyes, but for what we know it could have been travel at MFTL speed and it wouldn't contradict Piccolo's statement.

And this show what i have say before, that higher Ki/Power level means not only stronger, but also faster Ki Attacks.

As Piccolo who should had far higher speed than Raditz, who is able to react and dodge Ki Attacks, wasn't able to even see Frieza's Death Beam, another Ki Attack. Which only suggest one thing, that Ki Attacks get faster along with the characters.

 

[Antvasima]

So are the conclusions here that applying the Kaioken multipliers to the AP is fine, but not to the speed levels?

 

[LightinAnt]

Apparently people seem to be miffed about MFTL in the Frieza saga, when the AP gap between DB and early DBZ was even more massive

 

[Dark649]

So are the conclusions here that applying the Kaioken multipliers to the AP is fine, but not to the speed levels?

Not accepting speed would not accepting ap and dura, what is rejected is the KKx10 being factored. If we use 0.56c for Base Frieza Saga Goku, it would end up at FTL 5,6c for KKx10, FTL+ 11,2c for KKx20 and 22,4c for Frieza 100% which is FTL+ what they are current rated.

 

[Stefano4444]

I fee like it would be better to just shut down this entire thread and just leave as it is.

Its clear there is not going to be a majority agreement (or disagreement) about the KKx20.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dark649

Okay. That does not seem to be a big problem then, especially with the extremely high MFTL+ speed statistics of Dragon Ball Super.

 

[AstralKing7]

Wasn't it also suggested to just disregard the KK multipliers as well tho

 

[Kepekley23]

Not applying Kaioken to speed is cherrypicking to get the results we want. Either we throw Kaioken multipliers out or we scale them to speed.

Disregarding the hypothetical Kaioken x10 in Ginyu Saga is fine, I think.

 

[Dark649]

At this point i think would be better to just shut down this entire thread and any future revisions and just leave as it is.

It's better to wait, all the characters starting from Base Trunks to Perfect Cell would be downgraded since Base Trunks is much weaker to 100% Frieza.

 

[Kaltias]

Wasn't it also suggested to just disregard the KK multipliers as well tho

Yes

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that it would be best to use the Kaioken multipliers, in lack of better options. My apologies Kaltias.

 

[Dark649]

I agree with Ant, also there would likely be more users/admins in favour than in disagrement.

 

[ByAsura]

I fee like it would be better to just shut down this entire thread and just leave as it is.
Its clear there is not going to be a majority agreement (or disagreement) about the KKx20.

There's also the issue of Frieza becoming Small Star level isn't there?

 

[Stefano4444]

Are you talking about Mirai Trunks? Why it would downgrade everyone from him to Perfect Cell?

 

[Stefano4444]

There's also the issue of Frieza becoming Small Star level isn't there?

I'm pretty sure that is something that everyone would agree on.

 

[ByAsura]

There's actually some evidence that could put Base Trunks above Frieza after the Cell games. I have the volume on it (19) with me.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> There's actually some evidence that could put Base Trunks above Frieza after the Cell games.

What evidence is there of that?

 

[ByAsura]

Actually, nevermind, it wouldn't be evidence for him being superior to Frieza, but I'll post it anyway to get your thoughts.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Could it be possible that SSJ Grade 3 to be stronger than ssj3? Or at least SSJ 2?

 

[Qawsedf234]

SS1 Grade 3 Trunks/Goku were stronger than Cell in terms of total AP, but their speed was pretty crippled. The most I would give it, is that it might be around SS2s power boost, but isn't as good.

 

[ByAsura]

Context: Future Trunks has been revived and the Cell Games have ended. He has returned to the past in order to fufil his original goal — killing Android 17 and 18. After completing this he states he has one more thing to do (kill Future Cell), then talks to Future Bulma. Trunks is in base during this conversation, and remember that the 18 and 17 are different and much weaker than their alternate timeline counterparts, but still stronger than Frieza, as they could beat Trunks (by his own admition) at the time he killed Mecha Frieza.

The highlighted sections of the text, aside from the people, are actually highlighted in the manga I'm using. I didn't do that to draw attention to specific scenes.

Future Cell: "Of course... You've gone to the past! No wonder you know so much. But do you honestly think that will allow you to defeat me? Trunks... the spy bots have calculated how strong you are. You can't even defeat 18 or 17, much less me."

Trunks: "Oh? Then where are they now?"

Future Cell: "...You don't mean... you destroyed them?

Trunks: "I don't want to fight in Western City... we've rebuilt so much... we'll go somewhere else." HAH'!!!" *Trunks uses a a Kiai.

SFX: DOOM *Cell has a shocked expression and is launched out of the city (which was shown as a jagged version of !!), being unable to break out of the Kiai, or even move until he after he's several kilometers out*

Cell: "Ggrrr! (after having been launched by the Kiai)... I guess you have gotten stronger."

Trunks: *Turns Super Saiyan after Cell says this*

So what does this mean? Cell calculated his strength before, but Trunks was stronger than expected and launched Cell with a Kiai he couldn't break out of until he was already launched many kilometers, and he seemed to have a shocked, angry, and possibly pained expression. Trunks also curbstomped Cell with basic Super Saiyan.

 

[Stefano4444]

SS1 Grade 3 Trunks/Goku were stronger than Cell in terms of total AP, but their speed was pretty crippled. The most I would give it, is that it might be around SS2s power boost, but isn't as good.

Personally i don't think either of them are around SSj2 Teen Gohan.

In fact Perfect Cell put to that point he hasn't used his full power, as it was reveal in Chapter 410.

SSj Grade 3 would be at most comparable if not slightly weaker than SSj Full Power.

 

[ByAsura]

I thought SSJ Full Power was comparable to regular Super Saiyan but had only as much problems as his base did (in the Manga).

 

[Damage3245]

Imperfect Cell without absorbing thousands of people is inferior to Kami-Fused Piccolo, right?

So Future Trunks dominating Imperfect Cell with just basic Super Saiyan isn't super impressive. And if he were around 40 to 50 times weaker in base, would he be stronger than 100% Frieza or not? I'm not sure.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, but he's still far stronger than the Future Androids who are > Mecha Frieza, or 50% Mecha Frieza, not sure.

Trunks is far far stronger than the Androids already, as he's slightly weaker than Vegeta after training in the HTC once. But it's him doing this in base.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Here's the fight. Imo considering how terrible DB character's durability is while not "readied" its likely Imperfect Cell was just caught by surprise.

> Personally i don't think either of them are around SSj2 Teen Gohan.

Course not. I wasn't saying that they were > SS2 Gohan, but that Grade 3 might give a similar attack power boost as SS2. Just with a lot more negative side effects.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> Imperfect Cell without absorbing thousands of people is inferior to Kami-Fused Piccolo, right?

Yeah. He had to run away or risk getting killed.

 

[ByAsura]

Still wouldn't explain him not breaking out of the Kiai, which is shown what has to happe when Frieza fought Goku. Also he was mostly on guard, looking at the attack, and likely had most defences up.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Frieza was also sent flying for awhile to my memory.

 

[ByAsura]

But the point is they're still being hit and have to break out.

It doesn't matter anyway, it's not enough proof to be > Mecha Frieza, especially since Buu Saga Goku is surprised at the kind of power it takes to oneshot him.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Cell was underestmating him and escaped. I don't think it would support a upgrade for base Trunks.

 

[Dark649]

I was referring Base Trunks from the Mecha Frieza Saga, not the one from the end of the Cell Saga.

 

[ByAsura]

He didn't really escape and wouldn't have underestimated Trunks after the fact, but it probably wouldn't support an upgrade like you say, so I'll drop this.

@Dark

Ok.

 

[ByAsura]

Just to ask, why is Buu saga Base Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, etc, Large Star level? I can sort of understand Small Star level, as they should be superior to Frieza's Final Form in base alone by statements.

 

[Stefano4444]

Just to ask, why is Buu saga Base Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, etc, Large Star level? I can sort of understand Small Star level, as they should be superior to Frieza's Final Form in base alone by statements.

Because Base Goku was able to lift and swing the Z Sword, the same happen with Base Gohan but with more effort from his part.

While neither Supreme Kai or Kibito could even lift it from the ground, the same Supreme Kai which was stated to be stronger than Buu Saga Piccolo.