Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wrong, suppressed cell no longer downscales from his full power, as his suppressed form doesn't scale to SSJ trunks only his full power does. Which means his suppressed form scales to a different value than his full power. Again cell was enjoying his fight with goku, but in his suppressed state, doesn't impact goku scaling to cells full power at all. Especially since, gohan who is stronger than goku got slapped by the suppressed cell who at full power shook the earth and shocked everyone, cell should be far stronger than goku regardless, he was just holding back when he praised him.

Yes but the mere fact that Cell praised his power, especially with how strong Cell is, means that Goku is somewhat comparable (or in the same general realm) as Cell's full power. Keep in mind that when Cell fought Vegeta, even when he was even more suppressed than he was in the Cell Games, Cell's laughed off Vegeta's power, and even his Final Flash (that actually damaged him, though he regenerated) didn't impressed him. Same goes for Trunks, where he acutally said SSJG3 Trunks surpassed his suppressed form in power, but was still unimpressed and then defeated him with ease

Goku was the only one that was even remotely close to Cell's full power, and the only one who can give Cell an actual fun battle (of course, Gohan is stronger, but Cell didn't knew that before battling him)

Cell easily slapped gohan with a kiai and made everyone think he's dead and he could've killed him by hugging if he wanted but he left him alone so he could let him get angry, which is why gohan wasn't mortally wounded as a SSJ2.

Goku literally a second later tells everyone to just sense Gohan, and that he's fine. And as he said, Gohan emerged from the rubble, and was perfectly fine even after being hit. Also, Gohan did not fight Cell before going SSJ2. Gohan just stood there and either dodged attacks or took hits from Cell

 

[AKM sama]

17's statement as well as others are identical to frieza's

I just explained how the context is different. Both cases are not identical.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

As for why we consider Freeza's statement to mean 50% of his ki, it's because both his speed and power rose when he increased the percentage, not just his power. That and he (power and speed both) scale consistently with Goku's kaioken multiplier.

And why wouldn't it be the same for literally everyone else? Frieza's statement isn't something special

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I just explained how the context is different. Both cases are not identical.

Their statement are literally identical, except Frieza says "50% of my power", while 17 says "half my power"

 

[AKM sama]

Again, context differs. If Freeza's statement didn't have the context of his speed and power both rising proportional to Goku's kaioken/SSJ multipliers, we would have treated Freeza's statement in the same usual way of an increase in strength and not speed.

17's "half my power" by default only means "half his power/strength". If you can show more context of his speed getting doubled as well when he unleases full power, then we can treat 17 the same way as Freeza.

 

[KLOL506]

Speaking of Multipliers, I think we should add that we accept 50x SSJ1 multipliers in the page. Or else it gets a bit contradictory.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yes but the mere fact that Cell praised his power, especially with how strong Cell is, means that Goku is somewhat comparable (or in the same general realm) as Cell's full power. Keep in mind that when Cell fought Vegeta, even when he was even more suppressed than he was in the Cell Games, Cell's laughed off Vegeta's power, and even his Final Flash (that actually damaged him, though he regenerated) didn't impressed him. Same goes for Trunks, where he acutally said SSJG3 Trunks surpassed his suppressed form in power, but was still unimpressed and then defeated him with ease

Goku was the only one that was even remotely close to Cell's full power, and the only one who can give Cell an actual fun battle (of course, Gohan is stronger, but Cell didn't knew that before battling him)

Suppressed Beerus praised SSJ3 Goku's power, does that mean Goku is anywhere near beerus' full power? No.
As for vegeta and trunks, vegeta was so much weaker than suppressed cell which is why cell wasn't impressed at all, SSJG3 Trunks was also unimpressive to cell due to trunks' inexperience due to using a flawed form, though cell did acknowledge trunks' raw power. The only one who came close to cells suppressed power is goku, goku does not have scaling to full power cell.

Goku literally a second later tells everyone to just sense Gohan, and that he's fine. And as he said, Gohan emerged from the rubble, and was perfectly fine even after being hit. Also, Gohan did not fight Cell before going SSJ2. Gohan just stood there and either dodged attacks or took hits from Cell

Yeah gohan was not okay, that man was bleeding, though those kinds of wounds are superficial for super saiyans and db characters in general. But, gohan was about to die by hugging, that is the whole reason why goku decided to step in. Gohan is much weaker than even suppressed cell.

17's "half my power" by default only means "half his power/strength". If you can show more context of his speed getting doubled as well when he unleases full power, then we can treat 17 the same way as

Why does it apply for frieza but not for 17 despite the statements being identical?
Also when a character uses a percentage or a portion of their power, it doesn't mean they are pulling punches at 100% power, it means they are suppressing themselves/ ki to that level.
That assumption may be true for other verses but db is an exception I guess.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It doesn't help that we can't use the TV adaptation to justify anything.

In the TV Special, Gohan keeps up with Android 17 on their first encounter, by is ultimately speedblitzed by him after the statement.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why does it apply for frieza but not for 17 despite the statements being identical?
Also when a character uses a percentage or a portion of their power, it doesn't mean they are pulling punches at 100% power, it means they are suppressing themselves/ ki to that level.
That assumption may be true for other verses but db is an exception I guess.

I mean... It's getting a little circular, AKM said it was because of the context surround the lines, meaning it wouldn't apply to Freeza just by the statement alone.

 

[Stefano4444]

We consider Freeza's statement to mean that he was only at 50% of the total level of ki.

Actually everytime he mention this he always refer to half his power/strength, he never specify to or even refer to his Ki in general.

Someone saying "I'm only using half my power" doesn't mean "I'm only at 50% of my total ki" because you can use half your power despite being at 100% power by holding back your punches.

Android 17 using half of his power by simply holding back don't disprove anything, him holding back would means that his speed was affected too.

17's "half my power" by default only means "half his power/strength". If you can show more context of his speed getting doubled as well when he unleases full power, then we can treat 17 the same way as Freeza.

Considering that higher ki/power = higher stats, then yes it does means "half his speed" too, not just power/strength.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I mean... It's getting a little circular, AKM said it was because of the context surround the lines, meaning it wouldn't apply to Freeza just by the statement alone.

I understand, my point is that frieza's statement applied to speed too and frieza's statement is almost identical to 17's then 17's should apply to speed too. Meaning that statements with characters using a portion of their power do not scale only to AP but to speed as well.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I understand, my point is that frieza's statement applied to speed too and frieza's statement is almost identical to 17's then 17's should apply to speed too. Meaning that statements with characters using a portion of their power do not scale only to AP but to speed as well.

But it's not a linear rule. Freeza statement was not the determining factor that allowed him to get that speed boost in the first place, it needed the extra context to be usable. If Freeza's statement needs further context why wouldn't the others statements need the exact same thing?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Suppressed Beerus praised SSJ3 Goku's power, does that mean Goku is anywhere near beerus' full power? No.

Cell isn't Beerus though. And Cell definitely implied that Goku gave him a good enough match to actually enjoy the Cell Games

As for vegeta and trunks, vegeta was so much weaker than suppressed cell which is why cell wasn't impressed at all, SSJG3 Trunks was also unimpressive to cell due to trunks' inexperience due to using a flawed form, though cell did acknowledge trunks' raw power. The only one who came close to cells suppressed power is goku, goku does not have scaling to full power cell.

Cell was still not impressed with Trunks' power despite the latter surpassing him, as it's still nothing compared to his true power, and, that he used a flawed form that kills his speed so Cell could easily win by outlasting Trunks and avoiding his attacks. This was not the case with Goku, as Cell says that his battle with Goku is in his words: "how a battle should be", as well as Cell being forced to use his forcefield against Goku's attack, which Cell applaud Goku for pushing him to do that, as well as calling his power "destructive"

Yeah gohan was not okay, that man was bleeding, though those kinds of wounds are superficial for super saiyans and db characters in general. But, gohan was about to die by hugging, that is the whole reason why goku decided to step in. Gohan is much weaker than even suppressed cell.

While that is true, Gohan's injuries were not that bad compared to other fights they had such as against Frieza, or Goku's fight with Piccolo Jr.
And while yes Gohan is much weaker, he is still strong enough to dodge some of Cell's attacks and even

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Freeza's statement: "約50パーセントつまりマックスパワーの半分も出せばキミを宇宙のチリにすることができるんだ…"

... I was going to compare both japanese versions but I just can't find 17's statement in japanese. So yeah, if anyone can help me...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Freeza's statement: "約50パーセントつまりマックスパワーの半分も出せばキミを宇宙のチリにすることができるんだ…"

Can you translate it? or post the translation?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Can you translate it? or post the translation?

My Translation: "About 50% of my total power would be enough to turn you into space dust..."
Google: "I can turn you into space dust with about 50 percent, or half my max power..."
DeepL: "About 50 percent, or half of my maximum power, is enough to turn you into cosmic dust..."
Official: "I estimate half of my maximum power will suffice to grind you into cosmic dust..."

Again, I wanted to focus on the word used for "power" here, if it's different from 17's (which was translated to strength in some places), then AKM might have a better point here. If it's the same, it's a better argument against them

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

My Translation: "About 50% of my total power would be enough to turn you into space dust..."
Google: "I can turn you into space dust with about 50 percent, or half my max power..."
DeepL: "About 50 percent, or half of my maximum power, is enough to turn you into cosmic dust..."
Official: "I estimate half of my maximum power will suffice to grind you into cosmic dust..."

Again, I wanted to focus on the word used for "power" here, if it's different from 17's (which was translated to strength in some places), then AKM might have a better point here. If it's the same, it's a better argument against them

It's literally identical to Android 17's statement, who said that he didn't even used half of his power against Gohan. There's literally zero difference between the statement, so the argument of cherry-picking one but ignoring the other wouldn't work

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Cell isn't Beerus though. And Cell definitely implied that Goku gave him a good enough match to actually enjoy the Cell Games

The analogy still works. Goku gave a good time to a suppressed cell, not full power.

Cell was still not impressed with Trunks' power despite the latter surpassing him, as it's still nothing compared to his true power, and, that he used a flawed form that kills his speed so Cell could easily win by outlasting Trunks and avoiding his attacks. This was not the case with Goku, as Cell says that his battle with Goku is in his words: "how a battle should be", as well as Cell being forced to use his forcefield against Goku's attack, which Cell applaud Goku for pushing him to do that, as well as calling his power "destructive"

Cell was impressed with trunks' power actually, but suppressed cell's power actually surpasses SSJG3 trunks because Goku was stronger than him in g4, I think you said that yourself. Yeah again this all applies to suppressed cell, Full power cell is simply too strong for goku to scale to and it still makes sense. Look this is using your scaling, Goku < gohan ~ Trunks < trunks again <<< post z sword trunks << dabura = cell and I'm supposed to believe cell and Goku are comparable.

While that is true, Gohan's injuries were not that bad compared to other fights they had such as against Frieza, or Goku's fight with Piccolo Jr.
And while yes Gohan is much weaker, he is still strong enough to dodge some of Cell's attacks and even

Yeah that's because cell cut the fight short.

My Translation: "About 50% of my total power would be enough to turn you into space dust..."
Google: "I can turn you into space dust with about 50 percent, or half my max power..."
DeepL: "About 50 percent, or half of my maximum power, is enough to turn you into cosmic dust..."
Official: "I estimate half of my maximum power will suffice to grind you into cosmic dust..."

Again, I wanted to focus on the word used for "power" here, if it's different from 17's (which was translated to strength in some places), then AKM might have a better point here. If it's the same, it's a better argument against them

17 said power in the official translation.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

17 said power in the official translation.

There are multiple words for power in japanese, each with a different meaning. That's why I wanted to use the original japanese quote

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It's literally identical to Android 17's statement, who said that he didn't even used half of his power against Gohan. There's literally zero difference between the statement, so the argument of cherry-picking one but ignoring the other wouldn't work

But it's not a linear rule. Freeza statement was not the determining factor that allowed him to get that speed boost in the first place, it needed the extra context to be usable. If Freeza's statement needs further context why wouldn't the others statements need the exact same thing?

Already replied to that ^
Being the same statement is not relevant, Freeza's statement alone wouldn't give him a speed boost.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The analogy still works. Goku gave a good time to a suppressed cell, not full power.

Well yeah, but Goku is still close enough to full power Cell (although he is obviously far weaker) to make Cell enjoy the battle, something that Trunks could not do with Grade 3 even though he surpassed Cell's strength in his suppressed state

Cell was impressed with trunks' power actually, but suppressed cell's power actually surpasses SSJG3 trunks because Goku was stronger than him in g4, I think you said that yourself. Yeah again this all applies to suppressed cell, Full power cell is simply too strong for goku to scale to and it still makes sense. Look this is using your scaling, Goku < gohan ~ Trunks < trunks again <<< post z sword trunks << dabura = cell and I'm supposed to believe cell and Goku are comparable.

Yes but Full Power Dabura, who is equal to Cell, was also way too strong for Trunks to face either, so it's not like Trunks don't scale wither. Also, because of their feats against Suppressed Cell, and how Trunks is far weaker than Dabura when he fought Cell, I think that Goku and Gohan can downscale from Trunks

I also never said that they should be equal. Not even close, but Goku would still be close enough to Cell's full power that it will be possible to downscale him given his feats against Cell and Cell being impressed by Goku's power

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Already replied to that ^
Being the same statement is not relevant, Freeza's statement alone wouldn't give him a speed boost.

Yes it would because an increase in ki would raise BOTH speed and power, as noted by Goku as he used the Kaioken for the first time

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes it would because an increase in ki would raise BOTH speed and power, as noted by Goku as he used the Kaioken for the first time

We consider Freeza's statement to mean that he was only at 50% of the total level of ki.

Someone saying "I'm only using half my power" doesn't mean "I'm only at 50% of my total ki" because you can use half your power despite being at 100% power by holding back your punches. If you put me in a boxing ring with a kid, my total power level will not drop (my durability will not drop), but I can pull my punches back and not go for the overkill on that kid. All I have to do is not put my entire might in those punches.

If you think Freeza's statement is the same as 17's then we are looking at a downgrade because statements like these are explicitly mentioned in our multipliers page and will only scale to power, as in strength.

AKM responded to that.^

The only reason why Freeza's statement is usable is due to the surrounding evidence that everything including his durability increased as he used more percentage.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

AKM responded to that.^

The only reason why Freeza's statement is usable is due to the surrounding evidence that everything including his durability increased as he used more percentage.

That is false. They literally suppress their ki when they fight not at full power. Not somehow being at full power yet pulling their punches for some reason

 

[Nierre]

Semantics.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That is false. They literally suppress their ki when they fight not at full power. Not somehow being at full power yet pulling their punches for some reason

Oookay, prove so. 17 went for a physical attack, he didn't power up like Freeza did, or anyone for that matter.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Oookay, prove so. 17 went for a physical attack, he didn't power up like Freeza did, or anyone for that matter.

17 did not need his full power to kill Gohan... even half power was more than enough to stomp Gohan who had both his arms then

And as I said, an increase in ki would increase both AP and speed as noted by Goku in the Saoyan Saga

Also, Android 18 did not had a power up scene when she used her full power to battle SSJ Vegeta after both of them held back

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well yeah, but Goku is still close enough to full power Cell (although he is obviously far weaker) to make Cell enjoy the battle, something that Trunks could not do with Grade 3 even though he surpassed Cell's strength in his suppressed state

No he is not even flose to cell, it's contradicted by tour own scaling chain, he's being compared to a suppressed cell.

Yes but Full Power Dabura, who is equal to Cell, was also way too strong for Trunks to face either, so it's not like Trunks don't scale wither. Also, because of their feats against Suppressed Cell, and how Trunks is far weaker than Dabura when he fought Cell, I think that Goku and Gohan can downscale from Trunks

I also never said that they should be equal. Not even close, but Goku would still be close enough to Cell's full power that it will be possible to downscale him given his feats against Cell and Cell being impressed by Goku's power

Trunks doesn't scale to dabura and cell, cell and dabura scale to him, he is the one with the value. Goku and gohan do not have scaling to either trunks or full power cell. So they don't just arbitrarily downscale like that.
Man that's the only thing that supports your view right now, that cell was inpressed with goku, but it doesn't work because 1 he is being compared to a cell that is suppressed. 2 Goku is not even close to full power cells power, that even a trunks who is relative to gohan by YOUR SCALE NOT MINE would get shit stomped by full power cell let alone goku.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

17 did not need his full power to kill Gohan... even half power was more than enough to stomp Gohan who had both his arms then

"I used half my strength last time"
And he continued to use half his strength in a 1-on-1 against Gohan who survived last time... Yeah, that checks out.

And as I said, an increase in ki would increase both AP and speed as noted by Goku in the Saoyan Saga

Why would "half my strength" be related to ki again?

Also, Android 18 did not had a power up scene when she used her full power to battle SSJ Vegeta after both of them held back

"after both of them held back", uhh, okay, I don't remember this, when was it said she started to hold back? Also, why would "holding back" be equal to "using half my ki"?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

"I used half my strength last time"
And he continued to use half his strength in a 1-on-1 against Gohan who survived last time... Yeah, that checks out.

Yeah, because Gohan already lost one arm he's obviously not as strong as the Gohan who still had both remaining

Why would "half my strength" be related to ki again?

Because ki in Dragon Ball is what gives the characters their strength, speed and durability. Scouters also measure the amount of ki in someone to measure their strnegth and speed, so when people refer to other character as having "huge ki", they refer to their strength being huge.

For example: Saiyan Saga Goku had a PL of 8000, while Vegeta had PL of 18000. It is clear that Vegeta is more than twice as strong as Goku and we see that by Vegeta outmatching Goku with Kaioken times 2, which fits with character with bigger ki (and PL as a result) being stronger AND faster than people with less ki. That is obviously not the only example, as evidences to this being the case is all around the series, from OG DB, to Z, and even Super, GT and Heroes

"after both of them held back", uhh, okay, I don't remember this, when was it said she started to hold back? Also, why would "holding back" be equal to "using half my ki"?

You first said that it doesn't count becuse he didn't powered up

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah, because Gohan already lost one arm he's obviously not as strong as the Gohan who still had both remaining

That doesn't mean he kept using half of his strength, he said it in the "past"
"Last time I used-"

Why would he keep using it if he went out of his way to announce that? It implies he won't be using 50% of his power anymore

Because ki in Dragon Ball is what gives the characters their strength, speed and durability. Scouters also measure the amount of ki in someone to measure their strnegth and speed, so when people refer to other character as having "huge ki", they refer to their strength being huge.

For example: Saiyan Saga Goku had a PL of 8000, while Vegeta had PL of 18000. It is clear that Vegeta is more than twice as strong as Goku and we see that by Vegeta outmatching Goku with Kaioken times 2, which fits with character with bigger ki (and PL as a result) being stronger AND faster than people with less ki. That is obviously not the only example, as evidences to this being the case is all around the series, from OG DB, to Z, and even Super, GT and Heroes

You first said that it doesn't count becuse he didn't powered up

Well, first, we don't consider ki to be 1-on-1 with all stats, that's why we don't consider statements like "I'm 10x more powerful" to automatically mean they're 10x as fast, like with Great Ape Vegeta for example. So yeah, a statement alone isn't enough for this.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah, because Gohan already lost one arm he's obviously not as strong as the Gohan who still had both remaining

Gohan said he was stronger

To which 17 replies he only used half his strength last time, which implies Gohan being stronger is irrelevant, as he can just use more power

 

[Kulf_Boba]

The Dragon Ball stats blog says that Goku Base in the Buu Saga scales to 2.05 Foe, which means that in Ssj he would have an AP of 102.5 Foe (4-B).

Gohan also got stronger due to a zenkai boost from Majin Buu and healing, and was strong enough to lift the Z Sword in base form while Shin implied he himself couldn't. Gohan further grew much stronger upon training with the Z Sword. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 29820c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 74550c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.05 Foe. Scales to the base forms of Buu saga Goku and Vegeta. Goku tanked a point blank sword strike from the Z Sword. Everyone who can break Katchin or Kajuu Katchin is also much stronger given the Z Sword couldn't even scratch it.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The Dragon Ball stats blog says that Goku Base in the Buu Saga scales to 2.05 Foe, which means that in Ssj he would have an AP of 102.5 Foe (4-B).

Yes, that's wrong.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, that's wrong.

yeah that's most likely wrong, assuming adjustments were made, Goku shouldn't be High 4-C in base, but rather he should be anywhere from Low 4-C to 4-C+ depending on if Cell Saga base Goku is accepted to be as strong as base Trunks or Androind 16 down the line.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

yeah that's most likely wrong, assuming adjustments were made, Goku shouldn't be High 4-C in base, but rather he should be anywhere from Low 4-C to 4-C+ depending on if Cell Saga base Goku is accepted to be as strong as base Trunks or Androind 16 down the line.

I explained everything perfectly in the OP. Dark dagon man should edit the blog with what's been accepted.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, first, we don't consider ki to be 1-on-1 with all stats, that's why we don't consider statements like "I'm 10x more powerful" to automatically mean they're 10x as fast, like with Great Ape Vegeta for example. So yeah, a statement alone isn't enough for this.

You might wanna check this. And this.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

yeah that's most likely wrong, assuming adjustments were made, Goku shouldn't be High 4-C in base, but rather he should be anywhere from Low 4-C to 4-C+ depending on if Cell Saga base Goku is accepted to be as strong as base Trunks or Androind 16 down the line.

Oh right. Didn't Android 16 basically begged for Vegeta and Trunks to spare him and not kill him even though they couldn't turn SSJ anymore after battling Perfect Cell?

 

[Stefano4444]

Well, first, we don't consider ki to be 1-on-1 with all stats, that's why we don't consider statements like "I'm 10x more powerful" to automatically mean they're 10x as fast, like with Great Ape Vegeta for example. So yeah, a statement alone isn't enough for this.

Great Ape Form also increase the user's speed as well, it isn't limited to just power/strength, there is no reason to assume that he didn't get 10x faster too.

https://manga1st.online/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/2506/d5fb3744b8fd0b55c3059371ec83e0c2/9.jpg

https://manga1st.online/wp-content/.../2506/d5fb3744b8fd0b55c3059371ec83e0c2/10.jpg

https://manga1st.online/wp-content/.../2506/d5fb3744b8fd0b55c3059371ec83e0c2/11.jpg

https://manga1st.online/wp-content/.../2506/d5fb3744b8fd0b55c3059371ec83e0c2/12.jpg

Don't know where did you get that form doesn't affect speed, but nearly all super forms/transformations in the series always the user faster, not just stronger.

The only exception its 3rd Grade SSj1 Form.

 

[BlastX]

Vegeta could perfectly do that because the senzu bean he ate earlier and Trunks just wasted energy in his fight with Cell so he wasn't incapable either.

16 was also immensely damaged.