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Found this somewhere on facebook, idk:

Goku can carry that stuff.

Katchin is the hardest material in the universe, making it more dense than Nuclear Pasta. (1e17kg/m³)

AfvN6YI.png

Goku: 173px/175cm
Block: 124 = (124/173)*175 = 125.433526012cm or 1.25433526012m
Volume: 1.97351709259m³
Mass: 1e17*1.97351709259 = 1.9735171e+17kg (Class P)

Is that legit?
Preferably should be put in a blog, but using nuclear pasta is... kinna pushing it?

If it were me, I'd choose osmium as a low-end.
 
Harder and tougher =/= having higher density, and not sure if it's really stated to be the heaviest metal only the strongest.
In that case we can either go with tungsten (Due to it having a history of being used in hard penetrator cores for bullets) or with osmium (Densest singular element humans know of ATM).

Which wouldn't even help exceed 44 tons. Which is even worse than Kid Goku's boulder-moving feat.
 
In that case we can either go with tungsten (Due to it having a history of being used in hard penetrator cores for bullets) or with osmium (Densest singular element humans know of ATM).

Which wouldn't even help exceed 44 tons. Which is even worse than Kid Goku's boulder-moving feat.
Hmmm, DDM has a fair point, and as you said, it wouldn't be a relevant feat.
 
Harder and tougher =/= having higher density, and not sure if it's really stated to be the heaviest metal only the strongest.
Technically, Nuclear Pasta is actually both. It's the densest material known in the universe, anf thus is also the hardest material in the universe, as it's virtually indestructable and probably couldn't be penetrated without objects made of nuclear pasta as well
 
Also remember ssj2 future trunks one shot dabura
Yeah but he still was pretty outmatched as SSJ against Dabura. He needed SSJ2 to do it, and that was a Trunks that had training with the Z sword, as well as being several years older than the Trunks who fought Cell
 
So what's the difference? Keep in mind both Cell and Dabura scale massively above SSJ Trunks' value when he fought Imperfect Cell, Goku was actually strong enough to push Cell for a slight challange (which Cell even comments on Goku's power)

Dabura = Perfect Cell > SSJ Trunks (Post Z-Sword Training) (which are pretty potent in themselves) >>> SSJ Trunks (Pre-Z Sword Training) > SSJ Trunks (VS Cell) = 50 * Base Trunks >= Future Imperfect Cell > Future Android 17

Meanwhile: Perfect Cell >> Suppressed Cell > SSJ Gohan > SSJ Goku
I wanna make sure, was trunks training with the Z sword and struggling against dabura canon in both the manga and anime of super? That's because we can't back scale stuff from super back to DBZ because DBZ is the canon while super has 2 different canons.
Also you're down playing perfect cell, Cell (shocked goku and the others with his full power) >> Suppressed cell (easily defeated SSJ Gohan and almost killed him by hugging him) >>> SSJ gohan > SSJ goku.
 
I wanna make sure, was trunks training with the Z sword and struggling against dabura canon in both the manga and anime of super?
Yes. It's canon to both versions
That's because we can't back scale stuff from super back to DBZ because DBZ is the canon while super has 2 different canons.
Also you're down playing perfect cell, Cell (shocked goku and the others with his full power) >> Suppressed cell (easily defeated SSJ Gohan and almost killed him by hugging him) >>> SSJ gohan > SSJ goku.
That fight between Cell and Dabura is the same in both versions. In both the anime and the manga Trunks needs SSJ2 to beat Dabura, and couldn't do it with just SSJ

Also, Gohan actually lasted much better against Perfect Cell than any other fighter. Even after the bear hug, Gohan was relatively fine, though he refused to fight back until turning SSJ2. And while yes, Perfect Cell is much more powerful than Gohan and Goku, even Goku's power was enough to make Cell impressed with his strength and not consider him a total waste of time
 
Yes. It's canon to both versions

That fight between Cell and Dabura is the same in both versions. In both the anime and the manga Trunks needs SSJ2 to beat Dabura, and couldn't do it with just SSJ

Also, Gohan actually lasted much better against Perfect Cell than any other fighter. Even after the bear hug, Gohan was relatively fine, though he refused to fight back until turning SSJ2. And while yes, Perfect Cell is much more powerful than Gohan and Goku, even Goku's power was enough to make Cell impressed with his strength and not consider him a total waste of time
Okay.
I want to make myself clear, gohan and goku downscale from holding back perfect cell, full power cell scales above SSJ trunks, goku and gohan have no scaling to trunks or perfect cell, so I think they don't scale. And the gap between suppressed and full power perfect cell is unknown but very large, so trunks would be somewhere there, which full power cell scales to, while his holding back form scales abive gohan and goku.
 
Okay.
I want to make myself clear, gohan and goku downscale from holding back perfect cell, full power cell scales above SSJ trunks, goku and gohan have no scaling to trunks or perfect cell, so I think they don't scale.
Why wouldn't they downscale as wel? Keep in mind that the Trunks that fought Cell doesn't scale to Dabura at all, especially since he both got a few years of training beforehand, as well as getting training from the Z Sword before he fought Dabura, and just to defeat Dabura Trunks needed SSJ2 so SSJ Trunks also doesn't scale at all to Dabura's full power
And the gap between suppressed and full power perfect cell is unknown but very large,
Says who? We don't know by how much he powered up when finally using his full power
so trunks would be somewhere there, which full power cell scales to, while his holding back form scales abive gohan and goku.
Yes, but even Goku fought relatively well against this held back Cell. Enough to seriously damage him with his instant kamehameha, and Gohan was able to dodge his death beams and survive Cell's attack with not that much damage. Even after the bear hug he was pretty much fine as he was not hindered at all when he turned SSJ2 against Cell. And again, even Goku's power impressed Cell, and he noted that he's on a completely different level than anyone else (aside from Gohan)

Also, Buu Saga Gohan, who is equal or inferior to his Cell Games self, fought pretty equally against Dabura with SSJ2, so SSJ Gohan should also scale to Trunks as well, as well as Goku since while Gohan is undeniably stronger, the gap isn't enough that they're completely incomparable to each other
 
It might be HC but Cell was probably thinking Goku was holding back during his fight with him much like Gohan was, so he thought he had more power to pull out, plus it could be a compliment to his skill.

The Instant Kamehameha was done when Cell was holding back and taken by surprise so his defenses wouldn't have been as strong.

And when Cell powered up to Full Power everyone but Gohan shat their pants and were shocked by how much power he had implying he's way stronger than they initially thought of.
 
It might be HC but Cell was probably thinking Goku was holding back during his fight with him much like Gohan was, so he thought he had more power to pull out,
Yeah this is headcanon unless you can prove that this is what Cell thought. Cell also said that Goku is the first one to give him some fun and not be a complete waste of time for him.

Hell, Cell destroyed his own arena so he couldn't disqualify Goku by ring out just so that they won't stop battling, meaning Cell actually thought Goku is actually strong enough to see him as a worthy opponent
plus it could be a compliment to his skill.
More headcanon
The Instant Kamehameha was done when Cell was holding back and taken by surprise so his defenses wouldn't have been as strong.
I'm not so sure. Cell purposely let himself be hit by Vegeta's final flash, and was completely fine afterwards (even faking his pain to fool Vegeta that he can win), but with Goku, Cell actually was hurt and tired from the attack, and while he was strong enough to easily beat Goku afterwards, he was still pretty tired, which is why Goku gave him a senzu bean
 
I wasn't talking about Nuclear Pasta, but just Katchin specifically. Katchin is only specifically stated to be the most durable material in the universe, not the heaviest. I'm fine with comparing it's durability to Nuclear Pasta but I'm iffy about the mass part. I don't think there's a realistically plausible way to measure the exact weight.
 
Found this somewhere on facebook, idk:

Goku can carry that stuff.

Katchin is the hardest material in the universe, making it more dense than Nuclear Pasta. (1e17kg/m³)

AfvN6YI.png

Goku: 173px/175cm
Block: 124 = (124/173)*175 = 125.433526012cm or 1.25433526012m
Volume: 1.97351709259m³
Mass: 1e17*1.97351709259 = 1.9735171e+17kg (Class P)
I find iffy to use Nuclear Pasta when most people don't even know what it is, also i think it would be better if we focus to the scaling for the moment.

Anyway, what was the conclusion for Cell Saga Base Saiyans having surpassed Frieza 100%? It is legit or it is not?

And by the way, do we still accept Buu Saga Goku and Buu Saga Vegeta be above Shin?

Since that would then make them fully Massively FTL+ via scaling, even without their SSj Forms.
 
The reason he huffed and puffed afterward and needed a Senzu Bean before going into battle with Gohan was because Regeneration is a painful and taxing process.
Yes, but there's no denying Goku seriously hurted him in that blast. Sure he regenerated from it, but it was still a very powerful attack
 
Thank you for helping out Medeus.

Do you have this thread under control/is it fine if I unsubscribe to it?
 
I think it is under control, there's some discussions here and there but seems relatively calm.
 
Why wouldn't they downscale as wel? Keep in mind that the Trunks that fought Cell doesn't scale to Dabura at all, especially since he both got a few years of training beforehand, as well as getting training from the Z Sword before he fought Dabura, and just to defeat Dabura Trunks needed SSJ2 so SSJ Trunks also doesn't scale at all to Dabura's full power
Because goku and gohan have no scaling to either full power cell, SSJ trunks or base trunks, all their scaling is to suppressed cell, wven dabura said he'd easily clap gohan if they fought again.
Says who? We don't know by how much he powered up when finally using his full power
We are creating the gap right now by knowing the gap between ssj trunks and cell. Also it may be unknown but everyone including Goku was shocked at how much cell was holding back.
Yes, but even Goku fought relatively well against this held back Cell. Enough to seriously damage him with his instant kamehameha, and Gohan was able to dodge his death beams and survive Cell's attack with not that much damage. Even after the bear hug he was pretty much fine as he was not hindered at all when he turned SSJ2 against Cell. And again, even Goku's power impressed Cell, and he noted that he's on a completely different level than anyone else (aside from Gohan)

Also, Buu Saga Gohan, who is equal or inferior to his Cell Games self, fought pretty equally against Dabura with SSJ2, so SSJ Gohan should also scale to Trunks as well, as well as Goku since while Gohan is undeniably stronger, the gap isn't enough that they're completely incomparable to each other
It does not matter how well they did, all their scaling is to a suppressed cell and he still clapped all of them easily.
Gohan used SSJ against dabura. If he used SSJ2, he would've destroyed him.
What exactly is being discussed at the moment—just a summary?
Base cell saga saiyans, ginyu scaling hasn't been resolved and gotten derailed, nobody mentioned gotenks yet but noone disagreed either.
 
I find iffy to use Nuclear Pasta when most people don't even know what it is, also i think it would be better if we focus to the scaling for the moment.

Anyway, what was the conclusion for Cell Saga Base Saiyans having surpassed Frieza 100%? It is legit or it is not?

And by the way, do we still accept Buu Saga Goku and Buu Saga Vegeta be above Shin?

Since that would then make them fully Massively FTL+ via scaling, even without their SSj Forms.
Buu Saga Base Goku and Vegeta scaling to Shin is still applicable.

For Cell Saga Base Saiyans though, if Multiplier backscaling isn't applicable and they don't have any feats or statements, than either they upscale even more from Frieza's feat, or they upscale into baseline Low 4-C.
 
Because goku and gohan have no scaling to either full power cell, SSJ trunks or base trunks, all their scaling is to suppressed cell, wven dabura said he'd easily clap gohan if they fought again.
And Trunks in the fight against Cell doesn't scale to Dabura either, who is equal to Perfect Cell, as he needed SSJ2 to even beat him. SSJ Trunks was no match for Dabura even after several years he trained after he killed Cell, and training with the Z Sword too, so Goku and Gohan should scale to this Trunks, as both of them downscale from characters with the same powers (Dabura and Cell)
We are creating the gap right now by knowing the gap between ssj trunks and cell. Also it may be unknown but everyone including Goku was shocked at how much cell was holding back.
Goku actually knew Perfect Cell's strength the entire time. Even during the 10 days before the Cell Games, Goku just relaxed as he knew Gohan's hidden power (SSJ2) would be able to defeat Cell easily. And also reading the chapter again, Goku wasn't really shocked by Cell's power, as he knew all along that Cell is weaker than SSJ2 Gohan, and he himself never intended to be the one that will beat Cell
It does not matter how well they did, all their scaling is to a suppressed cell and he still clapped all of them easily.
Yes it does, because that means that Goku and Gohan downscales from Perfect Cell. And while yes they're obviously much weaker than Perfect Cell, the reason why I mentioning this is to show that they're not totally incomparable, as even SSJ Goku could fight suppressed Cell well enough that Cell would actually be impressed with his power (and if he would be that much stronger than Goku to the point they cannot even be compared, then Cell will certainly not enjoy his battle with Goku or Gohan and defeat them with ease like he did with Vegeta before to finish the Cell Games)
Gohan used SSJ against dabura. If he used SSJ2, he would've destroyed him.
If so, then Gohan scales too, since he fought well enough against Dabura to have a relatively equal battle, and Gohan's power either stagnated or weakened in those 7 years between the Cell and Buu Saga.
 
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Heck, even if we use multiplier backscaling, no matter what Cell Saga AP value you use (489, 978, or 1956 Tenatons, [I'm excluding Trunks 1 Foe+ AP scaling]), they all land in Low 4-C (9.78, 19.56, and 39.12 Tenatons respectively), not even +. So if Base Goku and Base Gohan can't scale to Base Trunks (the one that scales to 489 Tenatons), then I think the base saiyans scaling to Low 4-C might be fine.
 
Heck, even if we use multiplier backscaling, no matter what Cell Saga AP value you use (489, 978, or 1956 Tenatons, [I'm excluding Trunks 1 Foe+ AP scaling]), they all land in Low 4-C (9.78, 19.56, and 39.12 Tenatons respectively), not even +. So if Base Goku and Base Gohan can't scale to Base Trunks (the one that scales to 489 Tenatons), then I think the base saiyans scaling to Low 4-C might be fine.
Sorta makes no sense because we still have base Kamiccolo being right up there in Android 17 territory, it'd be ludicrous to assume that Goku and co. wouldn't have trained hard enough to be at least stronger than Kamiccolo in base mode alone.

Remember, canon timeline Android 17 and 18 are much more powerful than their Future counterparts, whom Trunks could decently hold his own against in his own words. And canon Imperfect Cell casually stomped both Piccolo and Android 17 before matching 16 in combat, 16 also having previously overwhelmed both Piccolo and 17.
 
Sorta makes no sense because we still have base Kamiccolo being right up there in Android 17 territory, it'd be ludicrous to assume that Goku and co. wouldn't have trained hard enough to be at least stronger than Kamiccolo in base mode alone.

Remember, canon timeline Android 17 and 18 are much more powerful than their Future counterparts, whom Trunks could decently hold his own against in his own words. And canon Imperfect Cell casually stomped both Piccolo and Android 17 before matching 16 in combat, 16 also having previously overwhelmed both Piccolo and 17.
If they have feats and/or Statements that supports then boom, we can scale the Base Saiyans there, I was just saying that if there was no statements or feats, then we don't have much going for the base Saiyans.
 
And Trunks in the fight against Cell doesn't scale to Dabura either, who is equal to Perfect Cell, as he needed SSJ2 to even beat him. SSJ Trunks was no match for Dabura even after several years he trained after he killed Cell, and training with the Z Sword too, so Goku and Gohan should scale to this Trunks, as both of them downscale from characters with the same powers (Dabura and Cell)
No. Dabura and cell upscale from trunks, goku and gohan downscale from suppressed cell. It doesn't matter how much weaker trunks is than perfect cell, it just means the gap between suppressed cell and full power cell is just thst much larger, which it was implied to be.

Yes it does, because that means that Goku and Gohan downscales from Perfect Cell. And while yes they're obviously much weaker than Perfect Cell, the reason why I mentioning this is to show that they're not totally incomparable, as even SSJ Goku could fight suppressed Cell well enough that Cell would actually be impressed with his power (and if he would be that much stronger than Goku to the point they cannot even be compared, then Cell will certainly not enjoy his battle with Goku or Gohan and defeat them with ease like he did with Vegeta before to finish the Cell Games)
They don't downscale from full power, but from suppressed cell. They may be kind of close to suppressed cell, but cell was ultimately still suppressed. Goku was impressive to him when he was in that suppressed state.

If so, then Gohan scales too, since he fought well enough against Dabura to have a relatively equal battle, and Gohan's power either stagnated or weakened in those 7 years between the Cell and Buu Saga.
Nooooo, dabura was holding back massively against gohan, he himself said he'd easily slap gohan in their second encounter, oh and this gap would be comparable to full power cell and SSJ gohan which is huge. SSJ2 Gohan in the buu saga scales above SSJ goku in the buu saga who slaps eveyone we've talked about before.


If you mods are reading this, I'd appreciate your input on gotenks' scaling. It impacts the solar system levels heavily and it's the last main point we need to talk about in this thread.
 
No. Dabura and cell upscale from trunks, goku and gohan downscale from suppressed cell. It doesn't matter how much weaker trunks is than perfect cell, it just means the gap between suppressed cell and full power cell is just thst much larger, which it was implied to be.
No it doesn't, since Trunks has no scaling to suppressed Perfect Cell, and while everyone (but Goku and Gohan) were shocked by Cell's power, there's nothing that implies how big the gap is.
They don't downscale from full power, but from suppressed cell. They may be kind of close to suppressed cell, but cell was ultimately still suppressed. Goku was impressive to him when he was in that suppressed state.
Suppressed Cell downscale from full power, and Goku and Gohan are close to the level of suppressed Perfect Cell. Cell being impressed with Goku's power means he should be way inferior to Cell's full power, but still on the same general league as him (as in, they're not completely incomparable to him). Cell actually enjoyed the battle with Goku to the point that he destroyed his own arena just so Goku will not be eliminated by ring out, unlike with Vegeta or Trunks, who Cell did not enjoyed the battle with them even when Trunks surpassed his initial suppressed state, and found their performances lacking, prompting him to give them time to improve so they'll be worth something in terms of power
Nooooo, dabura was holding back massively against gohan, he himself said he'd easily slap gohan in their second encounter, oh and this gap would be comparable to full power cell and SSJ gohan which is huge. SSJ2 Gohan in the buu saga scales above SSJ goku in the buu saga who slaps eveyone we've talked about before.
Can you show the scan for it? And Gohan was lasting pretty well against Perfect Cell even after hitting him many times and bear hugging him, as he wasn't hindered as SSJ2 against him
 
I remember things like 2x o creases in power for example don't apply to speed for some reason, they said speed does increase but not the same amount as power so it's unquantifiable, but it's weird that frieza's speed does increase when using higher percentages just the same as his power, good point.
Saying "I used half my power" doesn't apply to speed because the character could just be holding back the punches despite being at 100%. Freeza's case is different because he gave an explicit percentage and said he was not using his energy beyond that.
 
Saying "I used half my power" doesn't apply to speed because the character could just be holding back the punches despite being at 100%. Freeza's case is different because he gave an explicit percentage and said he was not using his energy beyond that.
Again, we just concluded a CRT where we proved that higher ki= higher speed, power, durability and aerial capabilities, etc.

Also what you just said, makes no sense, just like Stefano said. Why would it apply to Frieza only but not to Android 18 where the statements are borderline identical in their meaning and intent?
 
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Saying "I used half my power" doesn't apply to speed because the character could just be holding back the punches despite being at 100%. Freeza's case is different because he gave an explicit percentage and said he was not using his energy beyond that.
Are you telling me that Android 17 was at his top speed when he has fought Future Gohan while also using only half of his strength?

Why he would do that? Where it was ever indicate this to be the case? It seen to me instead that Android 17's holding back was in general, not just physical strength.

Sorry AKM but this its a really questionable reason to don't apply the statement to his speed aswell.
 
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No it doesn't, since Trunks has no scaling to suppressed Perfect Cell, and while everyone (but Goku and Gohan) were shocked by Cell's power,
Yes there is, it's trunks' scaling to dabura with the z sword, that is how big the gap that cell upscales from that trunks is. And you're right trunks has no scaling to suppressed cell, he scales above him and cells full power upscales from trunks.

Suppressed Cell downscale from full power, and Goku and Gohan are close to the level of suppressed Perfect Cell. Cell being impressed with Goku's power means he should be way inferior to Cell's full power, but still on the same general league as him (as in, they're not completely incomparable to him). Cell actually enjoyed the battle with Goku to the point that he destroyed his own arena just so Goku will not be eliminated by ring out, unlike with Vegeta or Trunks, who Cell did not enjoyed the battle with them even when Trunks surpassed his initial suppressed state, and found their performances lacking, prompting him to give them time to improve so they'll be worth something in terms of power
Wrong, suppressed cell no longer downscales from his full power, as his suppressed form doesn't scale to SSJ trunks only his full power does. Which means his suppressed form scales to a different value than his full power. Again cell was enjoying his fight with goku, but in his suppressed state, doesn't impact goku scaling to cells full power at all. Especially since, gohan who is stronger than goku got slapped by the suppressed cell who at full power shook the earth and shocked everyone, cell should be far stronger than goku regardless, he was just holding back when he praised him.

Can you show the scan for it? And Gohan was lasting pretty well against Perfect Cell even after hitting him many times and bear hugging him, as he wasn't hindered as SSJ2 against him
Scan for what? Dabura saying he'll clap gohan? Or cell bullying gohan? Dabura scan is this. ( chapter 459 page 2)
Cell easily slapped gohan with a kiai and made everyone think he's dead and he could've killed him by hugging if he wanted but he left him alone so he could let him get angry, which is why gohan wasn't mortally wounded as a SSJ2.
Saying "I used half my power" doesn't apply to speed because the character could just be holding back the punches despite being at 100%. Freeza's case is different because he gave an explicit percentage and said he was not using his energy beyond that.
Usually power means ki, so I'm only using 50% power would be ki, just like what frieza said, so it would be all his stats halved. Also, what even is the difference between 17's 50% statement and frieza's?
 
Usually power means ki, so I'm only using 50% power would be ki, just like what frieza said, so it would be all his stats halved. Also, what even is the difference between 17's 50% statement and frieza's?
Freeza: "I only need 50% of my power to turn you into spatial dust"
Android 17: "Sorry, I only used half my power last time"

I'm not stating any differences, I'm just presenting both lines.
 
We consider Freeza's statement to mean that he was only at 50% of the total level of ki.

Someone saying "I'm only using half my power" doesn't mean "I'm only at 50% of my total ki" because you can use half your power despite being at 100% power by holding back your punches. If you put me in a boxing ring with a kid, my total power level will not drop (my durability will not drop), but I can pull my punches back and not go for the overkill on that kid. All I have to do is not put my entire might in those punches.

If you think Freeza's statement is the same as 17's then we are looking at a downgrade because statements like these are explicitly mentioned in our multipliers page and will only scale to power, as in strength.
 
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As for why we consider Freeza's statement to mean 50% of his ki, it's because both his speed and power rose when he increased the percentage, not just his power. That and he (power and speed both) scale consistently with Goku's kaioken multiplier and then SSJ multiplier.
 
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Alright if we know for a fact that frieza's speed and power rose when he was using 50% of his power, and 17's statement as well as others are identical to frieza's, then wouldn't that apply to the other statements too? Ignoring the way ki scales to all stats.
 
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