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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

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Spinoirr said:
Fpssj_futuretrunks.jpg
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Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Goku and Gohan will scale. There's nothing that suggest Trunks became incomparably stronger since the Cell Games, especially with how easily Trunks killed both of them

Besides, if Trunks would've surpassed Goku when he fought Cell, he would probably mention it
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Noooooo. What would be more accurate is to say Goku and gohan have no reason to scale to trunks, they already have no scaling of their base forms being above the supersaiyans or androids, downscaling from SSJ makes them dwarf star level.
Why don't they scale to trunks? The 3 year timeskip, he is clearly not the same tru ks from the cell games, and his base feat vs cell scales him above gohan and goku, but nobody scales to it.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Noooooo. What would be more accurate is to say Goku and gohan have no reason to scale to trunks, they already have no scaling of their base forms being above the supersaiyans or androids,
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Goku and Gohan are explicably FAR stronger than even Grade 3 SSJ Trunks even at half of their full power, since Vegeta wasn't shocked by Trunks powering up further, as well as him knowing the flaw in his form

Basically: 50% FPSSJ Goku > SSJG3 Trunks > Suppressed Perfect Cell >>> Ascended SSJ Vegeta >> SSJ Vegeta Post HBTC >= SSJ Trunks Post HBTC

As for the feats: This is actually the feat that scales them, as if Trunks was that incomparably stronger, he'd mentioned how his power surpassed even that of Perfect Cell when he fought Imperfect Cell
FluffyCreatureZ said:
downscaling from SSJ makes them dwarf star level.
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Actually no. If we divide present Android Saga SSJ Goku and Vegeta and downscale their base form, it'd be Low 4-C
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Why don't they scale to trunks? The 3 year timeskip, he is clearly not the same tru ks from the cell games, and his base feat vs cell scales him above gohan and goku, but nobody scales to it.
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No. You need to prove his power as a Super Saiyan literally eclipses Perfect Cell and SSJ Goku and Gohan for that to work.

We can't assume that Trunks increases in such a ludicrous degree with nothing to back it up, especially even when Trunks trained for a second time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber with Vegeta for another year, none of them were able to close the gap to SSJ Goku
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Goku and Gohan are explicably FAR stronger than even Grade 3 SSJ Trunks even at half of their full power, since Vegeta wasn't shocked by Trunks powering up further, as well as him knowing the flaw in his form

Basically: 50% FPSSJ Goku > SSJG3 Trunks > Suppressed Perfect Cell >>> Ascended SSJ Vegeta >> SSJ Vegeta Post HBTC >= SSJ Trunks Post HBTC
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Ok, this isn't proof of tbeir base forms scaling above SSJs.

Gilad_Hyperstar said:
No. You need to prove his power as a Super Saiyan literally eclipses Perfect Cell and SSJ Goku and Gohan for that to work.

We can't assume that Trunks increases in such a ludicrous degree with nothing to back it up, especially even when Trunks trained for a second time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber with Vegeta for another year, none of them were able to close the gap to SSJ Goku
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Base trunks performs a feat that puts him above Goku and gohan's base forms, this means his SSJ would be above theirs too.
Nothing to back it up? Do you mean the 3 years of training he would have had and the crystal clear feat? Time spent training has no effect on how strong they get, it's extremely inconsistent and dependant on plot, if you want to prove base Gohan and goku scale to this base trunks then you have to bring actual scaling and not incredulity.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Ok, this isn't proof of tbeir base forms scaling above SSJs.
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They aren't scaling above their SSJ forms. They scale to Future Imperfect Cell, who is stronger than Future 17

However considering that SSJ Vegeta in the present Android Saga should be stronger than Future 17 (as he was almost equal to Present 18, who is much stromger than the Future Androids), that doesn't say much
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Base trunks performs a feat that puts him above Goku and gohan's base forms, this means his SSJ would be above theirs too.
Nothing to back it up? Do you mean the 3 years of training he would have had and the crystal clear feat? Time spent training has no effect on how strong they get, it's extremely inconsistent and dependant on plot, if you want to prove base Gohan and goku scale to this base trunks then you have to bring actual scaling and not incredulity.
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I brought you the scaling. The difference between Cell Games SSJ Trunks and Cell Games SSJ Goku is immense, as even Grade 3 can't hold a candle to 50% of Goku's full power.

Your argument relys purely on headcanon, as while yes Trunks did this feat in Base, there's nothing else to back it up. The Base Saiyans are featless in the Cell Saga, so we have to rely on scaling, and considering that the gap between SSJ Trunks and Goku is massive in the Cell games, we cannot assume such a massive jump with nothing to back it up
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
They aren't scaling above their SSJ forms. They scale to Future Imperfect Cell, who is stronger than Future 17

However considering that SSJ Vegeta in the present Android Saga should be stronger than Future 17 (as he was almost equal to Present 18, who is much stromger than the Future Androids), that doesn't say much
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I don't understand, how can you claim that base goku and gohan scale above imperfect cell when the gap in value between namek ssj goku and cell ssj goku is 4x in the value and the rest is unquantifiable?

Gilad_Hyperstar said:
I brought you the scaling. The difference between Cell Games SSJ Trunks and Cell Games SSJ Goku is immense, as even Grade 3 can't hold a candle to 50% of Goku's full power.

Your argument relys purely on headcanon, as while yes Trunks did this feat in Base, there's nothing else to back it up. The Base Saiyans are featless in the Cell Saga, so we have to rely on scaling, and considering that the gap between SSJ Trunks and Goku is massive in the Cell games, we cannot assume such a massive jump with nothing to back it up
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How does the gap being massive mean their base forms scale to trunks'? That just means trunks grew that strong.
I am not using any head canon, in fact you are. You are trying to scale the featless base saiyans to a base saiyan post 3 years training who has actual feats. If you could prove that that SSJ trunks is weaker than SSJ Goku or gohan then sure but you can't.
 
Kulf_Boba said:
At what point do the characters reach High 4-C and why?
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by the end of the Cell Saga where Imperfect Cell claims that Trunks couldn't stand a chance against him if he couldn't even hold his own against the Androids, not realizing just how much Trunks has buffed up since then having fought even tougher counterparts of the Androids in the past.

Each Android is at least twice as strong as SSJ Future Gohan (Since 17 in his own words in the scan above only used about 50% of his power to blast Future Gohan's arm off), with SSJ level characters in the Android Saga being roughly 244.5 tenatons via the SSJ 50x multiplier (Frieza Saga Base Goku scales far, far above First Form Frieza, who is 4.89 tenatons for destroying Planet Vegeta).
 
KLOL506 said:
by the end of the Cell Saga where Imperfect Cell claims that Trunks couldn't stand a chance against him if he couldn't even hold his own against the Androids, not realizing just how much Trunks has buffed up since then having fought even tougher counterparts of the Androids in the past.

Each Android is at least twice as strong as SSJ Future Gohan (Since 17 in his own words in the scan above only used about 50% of his power to blast Future Gohan's arm off), with SSJ level characters in the Android Saga being roughly 244.5 tenatons via the SSJ 50x multiplier (Frieza Saga Base Goku scales far, far above First Form Frieza, who is 4.89 tenatons for destroying Planet Vegeta).
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They're only star+ with that scaling. They reach large star level with everyone who scales above semi perfect cell.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
They're only star+ with that scaling. They reach large star level with everyone who scales above semi perfect cell.
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The Androids on their lonesome are Star level+. Future Imperfect Cell literally blurts out being superior to the Androids without realizing just how powerful Trunks is in front of him, so it's really more of an argument for making Cell Saga Base level Future Trunks to be Star level+.
 
KLOL506 said:
The Androids on their lonesome are Star level+. Future Imperfect Cell literally blurts out being superior to the Androids without realizing just how powerful Trunks is in front of him, so it's really more of an argument for making Cell Saga Base level Future Trunks to be Star level+.
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Okay, no characters scale to that trunks, it's 3 years after the cell saga, I was just debating gilad about this.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Okay, no characters scale to that trunks, it's 3 years after the cell saga, I was just debating gilad about this.
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Also, another point to consider is that Trunks had a hard time dealing with Dabura in his timeline in both versions of DBS, who was stated to have power equal to that of Perfect Cell, and Trunks actually needed SSJ2 to beat Dabura and kill him, so if Base Trunks when he fought Cell would be that much stronger than anyone else, his SSJ form would vastly surpass Perfect Cell and he wouldn't have any problem defeating Dabura, but that's not what happened

Besides, Trunks still noted that Perfect Cell's power is very strong, despite the fact that if he would be as strong as you say he is after all that time, his SSJ form would've vastly outclassed Cell by this point, meaning that Trunks wouldn't call him strong, but he does, and says that since that Cell isn't Perfect, he can easily manage him on his own
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Also, another point to consider is that Trunks had a hard time dealing with Dabura in his timeline in both versions of DBS, who was stated to have power equal to that of Perfect Cell, and Trunks actually needed SSJ2 to beat Dabura and kill him, so if Base Trunks when he fought Cell would be that much stronger than anyone else, his SSJ form would vastly surpass Perfect Cell and he wouldn't have any problem defeating Dabura, but that's not what happened

Besides, Trunks still noted that Perfect Cell's power is very strong, despite the fact that if he would be as strong as you say he is after all that time, his SSJ form would've vastly outclassed Cell by this point, meaning that Trunks wouldn't call him strong, but he does, and says that since that Cell isn't Perfect, he can easily manage him on his own
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Good point about dabura. Did trunks say that perfect cell is stronger than himself or imply that? Scans? If he did then that would upgrade perfect cell and dabura only.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Good point about dabura. Did trunks say that perfect cell is stronger than himself or imply that? Scans?
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Trunks did implied that Perfect Cell is very strong, but that since he's fighting Imperfect Cell, Trunks can easily handle him by himself
FluffyCreatureZ said:
If he did then that would upgrade perfect cell and dabura only.
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The thing is that SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan in the Buu Saga is also able to fight Dabura in a pretty equal battle, and this is talking about a Gohan that did not trained since the Cell Games and actually was weaker than his Cell Saga self in Base. There's also no rage boost to elevate Gohan's power here so we can't say he was comparable to his original SSJ2 appearance. Considering Base Gohan's power remained the same or got weaker, that is more evidence to scale Cell Saga Gohan and Goku as well
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Trunks did implied that Perfect Cell is very strong, but that since he's fighting Imperfect Cell, Trunks can easily handle him by himself

The thing is that SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan in the Buu Saga is also able to fight Dabura in a pretty equal battle, and this is talking about a Gohan that did not trained since the Cell Games and actually was weaker than his Cell Saga self in Base. There's also no rage boost to elevate Gohan's power here so we can't say he was comparable to his original SSJ2 appearance. Considering Base Gohan's power remained the same or got weaker, that is more evidence to scale Cell Saga Gohan and Goku as well
Click to expand...
That would only upgrade Gohan since he was vastly above Goku during the Cell Saga (and it's said his power stagnated since then, so Cell Saga and Buu Saga are even except that the later is rusty and weaker at SS2).
 
So if base Goten and Trunks were already matching 18, wouldn't that make their ssj forms scale to a little above 1 FOE? Or is it their ssj forms that scale to 18 and their base forms just surprised 18 for being stronger than she expected?
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Trunks did implied that Perfect Cell is very strong, but that since he's fighting Imperfect Cell, Trunks can easily handle him by himself

The thing is that SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan in the Buu Saga is also able to fight Dabura in a pretty equal battle, and this is talking about a Gohan that did not trained since the Cell Games and actually was weaker than his Cell Saga self in Base. There's also no rage boost to elevate Gohan's power here so we can't say he was comparable to his original SSJ2 appearance. Considering Base Gohan's power remained the same or got weaker, that is more evidence to scale Cell Saga Gohan and Goku as well
Click to expand...
That doesn't necessarily mean that he is weaker than perfect cell, but fine I guess this is good enough to upgrade perfect cell and dabura. I'll calculate their values in a little bit.
Dabura was holding back, cell and dabura are way stronger than cell and buu saga SSJ gohans.
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Also, Android 18 comments that Might Mask (who are Goten and Trunks) in Base is pretty strong, so that is another supporting feat for the Cell Games cast, including Goku

Goten and Trunks are also fighting pretty sloppily due to the masks limitations (as Goten can't see through the clothes)
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She commended him because she thought he was your average joe before he started to fight. I'm pretty sure she was stronger than them anyway until they went SSJ.
 
Mr.Cinos15 said:
So if base Goten and Trunks were already matching 18, wouldn't that make their ssj forms scale to a little above 1 FOE? Or is it their ssj forms that scale to 18 and their base forms just surprised 18 for being stronger than she expected?
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No, when they did a blast to her as Super Saiyans, Android 18 was barely even able to dodge, and was shocked by the power of the blast. They definitely scale way above her in SSJ
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
She commended him because she thought he was your average joe before he started to fight. I'm pretty sure she was stronger than them anyway until they went SSJ.
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Actually, Android 18 is well aware of Goten and Trunks, as well as their ability to turn Super Saiyan. And to push Android 18 like that even in Base is no joke
 
Mr.Cinos15 said:
So Goten and Trunks in SSJ scale above 1 Foe?
Click to expand...
Yeah, as well as SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan, as while they were obviously much weaker than Perfect Cell, even Goku had enough power for Cell to be impressed with him, and was actually fearing when Goku's instant Kamehameha hit him
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Actually, Android 18 is well aware of Goten and Trunks, as well as their ability to turn Super Saiyan. And to push Android 18 like that even in Base is no joke
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I reread the fight, she was not aware of their identity until they turned super saiyan, before that they weren't able to keep up and she slapped them easily and they needed super saiyan which they were way stronger than her then, this is not good evidence.
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yeah, as well as SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan, as while they were obviously much weaker than Perfect Cell, even Goku had enough power for Cell to be impressed with him, and was actually fearing when Goku's instant Kamehameha hit him
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Goku and gohan do not scale to cell, cell was massively hokding back against both if them, he slapped gohan's ass while suppressed. He only went full power against SSJ2 gohan. Oy cell dabura and trunks scale to that.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Goku and gohan do not scale to cell, cell was massively hokding back against both if them, he slapped gohan's ass while suppressed. He only went full power against SSJ2 gohan. Oy cell dabura and trunks scale to that.
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Trunks still doesn't scale to Perfect Cell or Dabura with just SSJ. He needed SSJ2 to kill Dabura well after he defeated Cell. However even Goku managed to bring Cell (though he was suppressed) to a good enough portion of his power for Cell to comment on Goku actually being strong and give Cell a run for his money, as Goku actually gave him some fun challange (though not much still), but considering that Trunks don't scale to Perfect Celll or Dabura either, that would be enough for Goku and Gohan to scale as well, as both heavily downscale from the same characters
 
Heck even after Trunks pulled the Z Sword out and trained with it (which should make him stronger than when was against Imperfect Cell) still wasn't as strong as Dabura.
 
Mr.Cinos15 said:
Heck even after Trunks pulled the Z Sword out and trained with it (which should make him stronger than when was against Imperfect Cell) still wasn't as strong as Dabura.
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Yes, and we don't even know how much time passed between Cell's arrival and Dabura's arrival in the Future, so:

SSJ2 Future Trunks (Against Dabura) > Dabura = Perfect Cell > SSJ Trunks (Against Dabura) > SSJ Trunks (Pre-Z Sword Training) >> SSJ Trunks (Against Cell) = 50 * Base Trunks >= Future Imperfect Cell

Meanwhile: Perfect Cell >> Suppressed Cell > SSJ Gohan > SSJ Goku
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Trunks still doesn't scale to Perfect Cell or Dabura with just SSJ. He needed SSJ2 to kill Dabura well after he defeated Cell. However even Goku managed to bring Cell (though he was suppressed) to a good enough portion of his power for Cell to comment on Goku actually being strong and give Cell a run for his money, as Goku actually gave him some fun challange (though not much still), but considering that Trunks don't scale to Perfect Celll or Dabura either, that would be enough for Goku and Gohan to scale as well, as both heavily downscale from the same characters
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Base trunks is 489 tenatons, as a super saiyan he's 24450 tenatons, cell scales above that. A suppressed cell does not scale to his full power but instead scales up from 1956 tenatons of SSJ Goku and gohan, and even then he could still stomp them while suppressed. Trunks has the advantage in value and there's no reason for goku or gohan to scale to him.
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yes, and we don't even know how much time passed between Cell's arrival and Dabura's arrival in the Future, so:

SSJ2 Future Trunks (Against Dabura) > Dabura = Perfect Cell > SSJ Trunks (Against Dabura) > SSJ Trunks (Pre-Z Sword Training) >> SSJ Trunks (Against Cell) = 50 * Base Trunks >= Future Imperfect Cell

Meanwhile: Perfect Cell >> Suppressed Cell > SSJ Gohan > SSJ Goku
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Did trunks actually train with the z sword before fighting dabura I can't remember, another important thing, is z sword trunks canon to both the dbs anime AND manga?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Base trunks is 489 tenatons, as a super saiyan he's 24450 tenatons, cell scales above that. A suppressed cell does not scale to his full power but instead scales up from 1956 tenatons of SSJ Goku and gohan, and even then he could still stomp them while suppressed. Trunks has the advantage in value and there's no reason for goku or gohan to scale to him.
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So what's the difference? Keep in mind both Cell and Dabura scale massively above SSJ Trunks' value when he fought Imperfect Cell, Goku was actually strong enough to push Cell for a slight challange (which Cell even comments on Goku's power)

Dabura = Perfect Cell > SSJ Trunks (Post Z-Sword Training) (which are pretty potent in themselves) >>> SSJ Trunks (Pre-Z Sword Training) > SSJ Trunks (VS Cell) = 50 * Base Trunks >= Future Imperfect Cell > Future Android 17

Meanwhile: Perfect Cell >> Suppressed Cell > SSJ Gohan > SSJ Goku
 
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