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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

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Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Oh right. Didn't Android 16 basically begged for Vegeta and Trunks to spare him and not kill him even though they couldn't turn SSJ anymore after battling Perfect Cell?
Click to expand...
Who said they couldn't transform? Trunks was fine he just dropped out willingly, and vegeta had just eatem a senzu.
 
Where does it say he'd be over a 100 Foe in SSJ? I only recall getting to 2 Foe with SSJ. Though, I do need to correct details yeah as Gohan being above Shin in base doesn't really happen till well after his fight with Dabura + Z Sword training.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Great Ape Form also increase the user's speed as well, it isn't limited to just power/strength, there is no reason to assume that he didn't get 10x faster too.


Don't know where did you get that form doesn't affect speed, but nearly all super forms/transformations in the series always the user faster, not just stronger.

The only exception its 3rd Grade SSj1 Form.
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Because if Vegeta was 10x faster than he was before, he would have blitzed the absolute **** of a tired kaioken Goku.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Because if Vegeta was 10x faster than he was before, he would have blitzed the absolute **** of a tired kaioken Goku.
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Sure, and by the same logic Oozaru Vegeta should have oneshotted/killed Goku with a single attack, yet this didn't happen.

Please don't try to nitpick, nothing indicate that Oozaru Vegeta's speed didn't get the same multiplier as his power/strength.
 
Yeah PIS happens all the time in DB, such as another example: Piccolo distracting/hurting Final Form Frieza at 50%, when just Third Form Frieza completely outclassed him
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yeah PIS happens all the time in DB, such as another example: Piccolo distracting/hurting Final Form Frieza at 50%, when just Third Form Frieza completely outclassed him
Click to expand...
If you're gonna use PIS as an excuse, do it to something that happens once, not CONSISTENTLY throughout the fight.

Ozaru Vegeta said he was 10x STRONGER, not faster.
Ozaru Vegeta is not portrayed as being 10x as fast
Ozaru Vegeta can't react to Base Goku's Ki Blast and Taiyoken
Therefore Ozaru Vegeta has zero reasons to be 10x faster.

That should be the end of it, because you don't have an argument here.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Ozaru Vegeta can't react to Base Goku's Ki Blast and Taiyoken
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Goku literally caught him off guard here. And he had no idea of the Solar Flare, or that Goku knew it, so he certainly couldn't anticipate this
GodlyCharmander said:
Therefore Ozaru Vegeta has zero reasons to be 10x faster.

That should be the end of it, because you don't have an argument here.
Click to expand...
What's your argument aside from semnatics and nitpickings?
 
Stefano4444 said:
Sure, and by the same logic Oozaru Vegeta should have oneshotted/killed Goku with a single attack, yet this didn't happen.
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"by the same logic"
We calculated you need to be 7x stronger to one shot, this doesn't necessarily apply to fiction, that's why we don't multiply one's AP by 7 times when they one shot someone in their verse.


Kaioken x2 blitzed Nappa, however.
Stefano4444 said:
Please don't try to nitpick, nothing indicate that Oozaru Vegeta's speed didn't get the same multiplier as his power/strength.
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"Oh nothing didn't"
Since when do I need to prove a negative? Tell me, since WHEN it's not your job to prove to me he also got 10x faster when LITERALLY NOTHING indicates so. And I already showed indications that Oozaru Vegeta is NOT nearly 10x faster.

But hey, "those doesn't count", "Oh, this is PIS", "Oh, he should have one shot by that logic"
All you're doing is applying a multiplier where it doesn't exist in the narrative itself, never once was Oozaru portrayed as being 10x faster in the story, literally NEVER.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Goku literally caught him off guard here. And he had no idea of the Solar Flare, or that Goku knew it, so he certainly couldn't anticipate this
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That's not a thing if you're 10x faster than the individual. He was looking directly at him.
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
What's your argument aside from semnatics and nitpickings?
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My argument is, first, that you have zero reasons to belie-
Wait, I don't need to have an argument. I literally don't have to prove a negative

"nitpickings"? We got a tired Base Goku CONSISTENTLY dodging his attacks, consistently getting his attacks in, reacting to that thing's ki blasts, and you're going to tell be the Oozaru is +10x faster than him? No, YOU don't have an argument, I do. You're dismissing it because "eeeeh , it's not enough" is not a point.

Oozaru Vegeta is not 10x faster unless proven otherwise.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Sure, Oozaru Goku can't react to Goku's attack, while Base Vegeta blitzes Goku with the Kaioken. Yeah that totally makes sense and definitely not PIS or that Vegeta was caught off guard
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Giants are usually slower than Human Forms, since that's how proportional size works.


PIS isn't an argument, Goku dodging and hitting his attacks is consistent. PIS is only an argument if you have consistent portrays that show the contrary. You DON'T.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Sure, Oozaru Goku can't react to Goku's attack, while Base Vegeta blitzes Goku with the Kaioken. Yeah that totally makes sense and definitely not PIS or that Vegeta was caught off guard
Click to expand...
Oh this is a PIS? That means the narrative disagrees with that notion right?

Show me the plot portraying Oozaru as being 10x faster, otherwise, you don't have an argumetn.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
All you're doing is applying a multiplier where it doesn't exist in the narrative itself, never once was Oozaru portrayed as being 10x faster in the story, literally NEVER.
Click to expand...
And yet the ******* SAME could be apply to strength/power, seeing how Vegeta couldn't instantly kill Goku the moment he turned in his Oozaru Form.

If you think Oozaru Vegeta cannot be 10x faster because he wasn't "potrayed" to be that fast, you would have to also accept that Oozaru Vegeta didn't get 10x stronger too considering that he wasn't "potrayed" to got that strong too.

There cannot be a middle end here, either Oozaru Form increase all the user's stats by 10 times, or it doesn't increase any stats by 10 times.

GodlyCharmander said:
Ozaru Vegeta said he was 10x STRONGER, not faster.
Click to expand...
You know DAMN WELL that the statement was referring to Vegeta's power in general, and not just in terms of physical strength.

And since it was proven over and over again that higher power level/ki = higher speed, then it means that Oozaru Vegeta got 10x FASTER too, at worst he become less agile due of the larger size which doesn't make him necessarely slower.

This is also proven by the fact the Broly's Wrath Form give the same power multiplier of the Oozaru Form, which clearly apply to his speed too as Broly could keep up with and surpass SSjG Vegeta when before he couldn't.
 
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Stefano4444 said:
There cannot be a middle end here, either Oozaru Form increase all the user's stats by 10 times, or it doesn't increase any stats by 10 times.
Click to expand...
Bullshit, the statement literally says POWER. Again, we're not authority on that matter. Oozaru Vegeta was portrayed as being massively stronger than Goku, and we have NO IDEA if Oozaru Vegeta was going for the kill, nor do we know if being 10x stronger is enough to one shot. (Our standards =/= the story's standards)
Stefano4444 said:
You know DAMN WELL that the statement was referring to Vegeta's power in general, and not just in terms of physical strength.
Click to expand...
Says who?
Who are you to decide that? We haven't seem ANY indication that this goes beyond physical power and blasts.
Stefano4444 said:
And since it was proven over and over again that higher power level/ki = higher speed, then it means that Oozaru Vegeta got 10x FASTER too, at worst he become less agile due of the larger size which doesn't make him necessarely slower.
Click to expand...
No, because that wasn't shown. This is NOT accepted as a rule. Never was. Oozaru Vegeta is also hundreds of times heavier too, so that explains why he wasn't 10x as fast, despise being supposed to be.
Stefano4444 said:
This is also proven by the fact the Broly's Wrath Form give the same power multiplier of the Oozaru Form, which clearly apply to his speed too as Broly could keep up with and surpass SSjG Vegeta when before he couldn't.
Click to expand...
You cannot use a FUTURE FEAT and a FUTURE INTERPRETATION and apply it to the past. Are you that desperate?

Are we scaling Kid Buu to Beerus now? No we aren't.

Now, first of all, Broly's Wrath Form is not the Oozaru, it uses the same multiplier, but it was SHOWN to apply to speed. UNLIKE THE OOZARU. Second, YEAAAH, like we're using something from 2019 and applying to the 1990's manga, lmfao, get out of my face.
 
The rule is simple here.

Provide substantial evidence that the statement applies to speed, otherwise it doesn't. That's the end of requirements.

Don't use a different manga/anime from over 30 years in the future.
Don't use other multipliers as a linear consistent rule.
Don't use anything other than what I asked for.

The only thing that will prove definitely that Oozaru Vegeta is 10 times faster than he was before is showing me Oozaru's are far faster than their former selves. Blitzing those who are comparable to their human forms.

We already HAVE Oozaru Vegeta being portrayed as being far stronger than his human form, he can cripple Goku with four or five attacks which Vegeta could do. So the statement already applies to strength.
 
Also, using the movie scaling is...... not recommended. This would also imply that the Vegeta SSJG is less than 10x faster/stronger than his SSJ form.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yes you can. This is what retcons are. You may not like it but you're gonna have to deal with it
Click to expand...
That's not a retcon, it's not the same form. Retcons are new information that directly contradicts older one. This is not the case. Vegetto is a contradiction, and therefore a retcon.
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
It's literally using the Oozaru power in humanoid form
Click to expand...
It's still no the Oozaru form
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Well, first, we don't consider ki to be 1-on-1 with all stats
Click to expand...
we... we do, though?
GodlyCharmander said:
Because if Vegeta was 10x faster than he was before, he would have blitzed the absolute **** of a tired kaioken Goku.
Click to expand...
If he was ten-times stronger than before, he would have one-shot him, but guess what he did not do.
"Wanna hear something good?... When Saiyans become Oozaru, their battle power becomes 10 times what it is as a human!!!!"
Click to expand...
Battle Power encompasses all stats, not just strength.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Says who?
Who are you to decide that? We haven't seem ANY indication that this goes beyond physical power and blasts.
Click to expand...
And who are YOU to decide that Vegeta's statement was only referring to his physical strength and destructive power.

Statements involving characters getting stronger/more powerful always reference the characters power levels/ki, which affect all their stats, INCLUDING speed.

Show me once in the series where such statement was limited to just a character's physical strength and destructive power, rather than all its stats.

GodlyCharmander said:
No, because that wasn't shown. This is NOT accepted as a rule. Never was. Oozaru Vegeta is also hundreds of times heavier too, so that explains why he wasn't 10x as fast, despise being supposed to be.
Click to expand...
And when becoming bigger would necessarely make him slower by default? Anilaza was larger than anyone else yet he could still kept up with Team Universe 7.

Broly in his Super Saiyan Berserker got larger too but it didn't seen like he got slower by default.

The only exception where a super form make the user slower was with the SSj1 3rd Grade, no other forms have been show to have the same side effect.

Even Master Roshi wasn't show to get slower in his Max Power, despire becoming larger/heavier.

GodlyCharmander said:
Now, first of all, Broly's Wrath Form is not the Oozaru, it uses the same multiplier, but it was SHOWN to apply to speed. UNLIKE THE OOZARU.
Click to expand...
If both are suppost to get the same ******* multiplier and Broly was show to have become faster too, WHY THE **** THIS CANNOT APPLY TO OOZARU VEGETA?!

And, it was SHOW to make him faster too, otherwise Oozaru Vegeta wouldn't had be able to target and hit Kaioken Goku.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Not necessarily, we do have exception of equal power levels and different power and speed (Ginyu Force), it's still not linear, therefore 10x battle power is not 10x power and speed.
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Scans? Also, exception to the rules means that there's a rule in the first place...

And if all you could come with is a singular outlier compared to everyone else who follows the rules straight, then it's them who are the special case
 
Stefano4444 said:
And who are YOU to decide that Vegeta's statement was only referring to his physical strength and destructive power.
Click to expand...
I'm a guy who actually uses what the manga has shown us, and don't just consider contradictions "pis" to make my argument more solid.

Oozru Vegeta is not 10x faster than before.
Stefano4444 said:
Statements involving characters getting stronger/more powerful always reference the characters power levels/ki, which affect all their stats, INCLUDING speed.
Click to expand...
Weight is playing a factor here.
Stefano4444 said:
Show me once in the series where such statement was limited to just a character's physical strength and destructive power, rather than all its stats.
Click to expand...
You already did
Stefano4444 said:
The only exception where a super form make the user slower was with the SSj1 3rd Grade, no other forms have been show to have the same side effect.
Click to expand...
^
There's also Oozaru Vegeta.
Stefano4444 said:
And when becoming bigger would necessarely make him slower by default? Anilaza was larger than anyone else yet he could still kept up with Team Universe 7.
Click to expand...
Again, future information and different character applying to the past.
"And when becoming bigger would necessarely make him slower by default?"
Weight makes a Saiyan slower in Dragon Ball. A much stronger Vegeta had trouble with 400x his own weight.
Stefano4444 said:
Broly in his Super Saiyan Berserker got larger too but it didn't seen like he got slower by default.
Click to expand...
You're talking Broly, who got 50x stronger, getting SLIGHTLY larger due to his muscles vs Vegeta, who got "10x stronger", getting MASSIVE due to a transformation.
Stefano4444 said:
The only exception where a super form make the user slower was with the SSj1 3rd Grade, no other forms have been show to have the same side effect.
Click to expand...
Yes, because their muscles got too large and the strength couldn't compensate for their mass gain. Which is the REASON why they got slower, thanks for reminding me. Mass gain = Slower characters if the multiplier don't compensate. This was shown and stated once, so I can consider it a rule, right?
Stefano4444 said:
Even Master Roshi wasn't show to get slower in his Max Power, despire becoming larger/heavier.
Click to expand...
What? That's just his max power, and again, he got buff, nothing inhuman.
Stefano4444 said:
If both are suppost to get the same ******* multiplier and Broly was show to have become faster too, WHY THE **** THIS CANNOT APPLY TO OOZARU VEGETA?!
Click to expand...
Because it wasn't shown to be the case, but the exact contrary. Plus, Broly isn't over 200x heavier in comparison to his 10x multiplier.
Stefano4444 said:
And, it was SHOW to make him faster too, otherwise Oozaru Vegeta wouldn't had be able to target and hit Kaioken Goku.
Click to expand...
Vegeta didn't hit Kaioken Goku, Goku dodged him with Kaioken and got hit in base form by a kick.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Goku also stated that he needed to increase his power to match Vegeta's speed.
Click to expand...
My man is using a false translation.

Goku was referring to the genkidama when he said he needed time to concentrate, he just said he was fast for his size.

You = 🤡

Also, again,

Vegeta vs 300x his weight

Goku vs 20x his weight

Goku vs 100x his weight

Trunks vs 150x his weight, he then uses a 50x multiplier to bear it.

Seems like a 10x multipler is not enough to compensate for a 200x mass increase for Oozaru Vegeta 😳
 
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