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Bruh... Straight up destroyed your own argument.
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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
- Start date
- Status
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
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There is a big difference between being the size of a human and having ten-times your weight dropped on your head and being ten-times your normal size. It is all a matter of surface area and whatnot.
GodlyCharmander
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You're not about to argue the Kaioken x5 statement was about speed when he was literally referring to power for his genkidama, are you?
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
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Ah, you got me.
nice scanlation, by the way; I prefer these ones, personally
nice scanlation, by the way; I prefer these ones, personally
GodlyCharmander
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It's still disproportional, you only get 10 times your normal strength, yet you get hundreds of times your mass. Obviously it's going to have some effect, as shown by Vegeta not being nearly as agile, and being unable to dodge or hit his attacks on a Base Goku. It's not fair to just throw all these instances as 'PIS' if we have literally zero reasons to believe that Oozaru Vegeta was 10x as fast as before, or instances where did go any faster than his human form.
GodlyCharmander
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I mean, Goku would have to be beyond stupid to think he couldn't outspeed Oozaru Vegeta with a 5x Kaioken when he has dodged, reacted to, and even used a technique faster than said Oozaru can even react in base form.
Btw, it does say that in the japanese version.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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That is PIS since even regular Vegeta would utterly blitz Base Goku in that point. He literally blitzed Kaioken Goku, so somehow Goku keeping up with Oozaru Vegeta is PIS
Nullflowerblush
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GodlyCharmander
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Why would a larger, heavier Vegeta be any faster than his human form?
Again, for something to be PIS, you have to prove the narrative agrees with you. Again, Goku only comments he is fast for his size (meaning size does affect speed normally), not faster than before.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Because he was literally stated to increase his battle power?
Scans?
GodlyCharmander
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Goku wouldn't be able to dodge a punch from human vegeta in base form. I didn't say he wasn't agile, I said he wasn't as agile as before.
Why do you think showing the few instances where Vegeta landed his attacks is going to be a counter to the times he wasn't. In the same shot.
You don't catch someone over 10x faster than you off-guard.
Stefano4444
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No. SSj1 3rd Grade has actually be stated to make the user slower, by both Goku and Cell, nothing like that was stated with the Oozaru.
Also i like how you are more than willing to compare SSj1 3rd Grade Form and Oozaru Form without any good reason and yet you deny the same with the Wrath Form, despire the latter was actually be compared with the Oozaru Form.
Do you think this is ******* normal for people got get dozens of pounds of muscles from nowhere?!
Or what you think Roshi its a ******* balloon and he just filled himself with air like Luffy?
Not its the ******* exception, this only occur with the SSj1 3rd Grade, the Oozaru was never stated to get slower due of his higher mass, or just slightly faster.
The hit him while he was using Kaioken.
I'm a guy who actually uses what the manga has shown us? More like the guy who don't uses what the manga has shown us.
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GodlyCharmander
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Along with his mass. Mass Gain = Less Speed.
Again, if his battle power increased and his size was still normal, he would obviously be faster.
Go to my reply to Null, "my man is using a false translation"
GodlyCharmander
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"All this new mass gain grants me strength, but kills my speed"
It isn't the form itself, it's the mass gain.
It was stated once, therefore it can be a rule, just like with Ki. (And it was shown to be the case with the multiple gravity scans I've shown before)
Mass Gain = More Power and Less Speed until proven or shown otherwise.
"any good reason"
Yeah, the ******* mass gain does not happen with Oozaru too, right? What the **** is wrong with your brain? Wrath Form is NOT the Oozaru Form, it doesn't work like the Oozaru form, the user doesn't get LARGER, and still gets the same multiplier, so obviously he will be ******* faster.
That means his power increase compensates for his mass gain.
Do you think this is ******* normal for people got get dozens of pounds of muscles from nowhere?!
Or what you think Roshi its a ******* balloon and he just hill himself with air like Luffy?
It wasn't shown, portrayed or stated to be any faster either. What the **** are you on about?
Why Goku literally stating "The body can't compensate the mass gain" an exception? Why doesn't this apply to other things?
Why only the things YOU find convenient can be used as a rule despise only being stated once, but the things I bring up are "only exceptions"?
Access Denied. Oof.
Says the guy who is not accepting a statement from the manga itself, and is only using what's convenient to you.
Nullflowerblush
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Gilad_Hyperstar
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No. That is unique to the form itself, as the boost in power is immese, yet Goku notes that specifically this form reduces his speed.
Also, Ascended SSJ Vegeta (Grade 2) have way more muscle mass compared to Grade 1 SSJ Vegeta, so by your logic it should be slower as well since it's more massive
It's only a rule if literally every character who shows this follow that rule
That is your headcanon, and unless you can prove that the show treats it that way for both Oozaru and MAX Power Roshi, then your claims are baseless
Stefano4444
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It was shown otherwise, with Oozaru Vegeta capable to follow and hit Goku even while using his Kaioken.
Considering all other super forms in the series that make the users physically larger/heavier where never stated/show to decrease the user's speed, i'm pretty damn sure SSj1 3rd Grade its the exception, not the rule.
Neither Buff Roshi, SSj1 Berserk Broly, Monster Form Zarbon, Oozaru Vegeta, 2nd Form Frieza or even SSj1 2nd Grade Vegeta where show or stated to get slower or get a different speed increase compare to their physical strength/destructive power, ONLY with SSj1 3nd Grade Trunks we get the issue of getting far slower due of the mass gain.
You're projecting.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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It still doesn't work. Maybe use imgur for the scan
Gilad_Hyperstar
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100% Frieza too, Bereserker Kale, SSJ Kefla and more
GodlyCharmander
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Huuuh, yeaaah, I concede.
Still, if Vegeta said "Battle Power", then it's not treated linearly here, so 10x battle power is not necessarily 10x faster.
Still, if Vegeta said "Battle Power", then it's not treated linearly here, so 10x battle power is not necessarily 10x faster.
Stefano4444
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He only talked about his Power, he never refer to his Battle Power or Power Level.
Stefano4444
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GodlyCharmander
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“Wanna hear something good?... When Saiyans become Oozaru, their battle power becomes 10 times what it is as a human!!!!"
Japanese Raw
Vegeta says "戦闘力", which means battle power:
Also, translation
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Guess what? Battle power increase would make both strength and speed increase, which is consistent to what we see“Wanna hear something good?... When Saiyans become Oozaru, their battle power becomes 10 times what it is as a human!!!!"
Japanese Raw
Vegeta says "戦闘力", which means battle power:
Also, translation
GodlyCharmander
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I don't care, the wiki doesn't consider Battle Power linear, if you don't agree, make a CRT.
Nullflowerblush
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someone hasn't checked out the verse page in awhile~
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Battle power= ki =all stats.
And by the way, wiki accepts that ki scales to all stat, higher ki=higher stat.
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Here it is:
Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4]
Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4]
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It only refers to ki level, It may not necessarily refer to the power level we see on the scouters.
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This isn't applicable for each and every scenario I would presume?
For example Trunks utilizing SSJ Grade 3 amplified his physical power to a degree of exceeding Cell, however this form hindered his speed and he was thusly overwhelmed.
GodlyCharmander
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The wiki doesn't consider "Battle Power = Ki" linearly. < Look at this word!!
Otherwise we would scale NUMBERS to actual feats.
"Goku is 8000 BP, Raditz is 1200~1500 BP, so Goku is 4x faster than him", we literally don't do that.
... The Oozaru Multiplier is literally not used, what are you talking about?
GodlyCharmander
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Yeah, the numbers themselves are not linear whatsoever, otherwise we'd have City Level Normal Humans because their BP is 5
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Actually, is there any concrete proof that "battle power" is referring to the "scouter power level"? Is there any other indication of the term "battle power" itself being used post-Scouters era after they dump using scouters once they go SSJ? Just curious.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Not that I know of. It uses the same term Raditz used for the number on the scouter, the same Freeza used to refer to his own Power Level (530.000) in japanese. Doubt they'd use the same term in japanese to refer to anything other than what was established
Gilad_Hyperstar
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That is a specific flaw for SSJ Grade 3, and was stated to be the form's flaw multiple times
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Its still evidence that speed does not always scale linearly with battle power.
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Power level reads your ki output and converts it to numbers.
We use power levels to dictates who is stronger than who, not necessary by how much
Trunks is a special Case, an outlier, it's even mentioned as a flaw
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No it doesn't, it's literally an outlier.
Most Of db is "having higher ki= having higher stats" except on trunks case were he was called out as a flaw
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Said numbers are not linear, still.
Therefore 10x BP is not 10x stronger, faster and more durable. Can we move on?
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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Yes but generally it does. This is the one exception to this rule
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