Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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These are just values. Nothing changes otherwise
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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #522
I'm so pissed that the kaioken 10x scaling is only a likely and not a full tier, it makes the format of the ratings look so ugly and a pain in the ass to edit.
Anyway I have edited my blog, I added all the speed values that the characters scale to but now with the downgraded calculation.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
The only big change is that everyone who scales to post zenkai namek Goku are now "At least FTL, likely FTL+" as opposed to "FTL+, likely higher" though they are really close to FTL+ so we can just upscale them to 10c and make the tier FTL+, likely higher but opinions would be appreciated. I will also add more characters that need to be changed and add the striking strength and durability part for all the profiles.
Anyway I have edited my blog, I added all the speed values that the characters scale to but now with the downgraded calculation.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
The only big change is that everyone who scales to post zenkai namek Goku are now "At least FTL, likely FTL+" as opposed to "FTL+, likely higher" though they are really close to FTL+ so we can just upscale them to 10c and make the tier FTL+, likely higher but opinions would be appreciated. I will also add more characters that need to be changed and add the striking strength and durability part for all the profiles.
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- #523
You guys got a translated version of this scan?
Anyway my blog is done now and we can now apply the changes to the profiles.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
Anyway my blog is done now and we can now apply the changes to the profiles.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
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1.2x difference?
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- Thread starter
- #525
1.15x difference and a huge amount of scaling above that.
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confirmed upscale?
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The only important info in that scan is that Shin is around the level of Goku during the Cell Games. Everything else is basically stuff already explained in the story sadly (this guide seems to only reveal one or two guide exclusive info every page).
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Yes I know that is exactly what I want. It's just I want it translated so that I can use it as a scan for the profiles in shin's justification.
EmilioRory10
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I speak spanish so I could try, but no I don't have the translated version of the scan itself
Las habilidades del Kaio Shin"
The abilities of the Kaio Shin
"A pesar de ocultar su fuerza cuando se conocieron, Goku sospechó que no era alguien corriente"
Despite hiding his strength when they met, Goku suspected that he wasn't a normal person
"Aunque tiene unas habilidades fuera de lo común, no parece que supere en fuerza de combate a los supersaiyanos"
Even though he has some abilities outside the common, it doesn't look like he is superior to the super saiyans in combat power"
"A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar a Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game"
Judging from the precautions he takes with Dabura, who is on a similar level to Cell, you could deduce he has the same strength Goku had during the Cell Games
"Más adelante, su poder aumenta al fusionarse con Kibito, pero ni siquiera así pudo luchar con Bu con garantías"
Later on, his power increases when he fuses with Kibito, but not even then could he fight against Bu
The abilities of the Kaio Shin
"A pesar de ocultar su fuerza cuando se conocieron, Goku sospechó que no era alguien corriente"
Despite hiding his strength when they met, Goku suspected that he wasn't a normal person
"Aunque tiene unas habilidades fuera de lo común, no parece que supere en fuerza de combate a los supersaiyanos"
Even though he has some abilities outside the common, it doesn't look like he is superior to the super saiyans in combat power"
"A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar a Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game"
Judging from the precautions he takes with Dabura, who is on a similar level to Cell, you could deduce he has the same strength Goku had during the Cell Games
"Más adelante, su poder aumenta al fusionarse con Kibito, pero ni siquiera así pudo luchar con Bu con garantías"
Later on, his power increases when he fuses with Kibito, but not even then could he fight against Bu
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,820
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- Thread starter
- #532
Very accurate
That's perfect, thanks you're all awesome.
Anyway who's editing the profiles...
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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If we're using scenes from El Manga Legendario, then we also have this scene here about SSJ Grade 3 to use
If anyone can post the translation it would be amazing since I don't know Spanish
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Can someone give me a scan about this for reference?
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@Gilad_Hyperstar here ya go
"Luchadores que superan sus límites"
Warriors that surpass their limits.
"Vegeta y Trunks"
Vegeta and Trunks
"Vegeta comprendió que no podria derrotar ni a Cell ni a los androides, aun siendo un supersaiyano. Empezó su entrenamiento para superar sus limites. Se fue a la sala del espiritu y el tiempo, y consiguió alcanzar un nivel superior. Tras finalizar este valioso entrenamiento, la fuerza de Vegeta y Trunks era muy superior a la del A-17 e incluso a la de Cell en su forma semicompleta."
Vegeta understood that he wouldn't be able to defeat neither Cell nor the androids, despite being a Super Saiyan. He started his training to surpass his limits. He went to the room of spirit and time, and found a way to reach a superior level. After finishing this important (or valuable) training, the strength of Vegeta and Trunks were far superior of that of A-17 as well as Cell in his Semicomplete form.
"Trunks se extraña por el estado de Vegeta, pero Goku se da cuenta de lo que siente."
Trunks is confused (or weirded out, or estranged, choose your pick, but I think confused makes the most sense) by Vegeta's state, but Goku takes notice of what he feels.
"Los hinchados musculos de Vegeta dejan entrever el aumento de su fuerza."
The swollen muscles of Vegeta allow a glimpse to the increase in his strength.
"El error de Trunks"
The error of Trunks (or Trunks's error)
"Habiendo adquirido su forma completa, Cell deja claro a Vegeta quién es el que manda. Trunks, confiado en que había conseguido una fuerza que superaba a la de su padre, le hace frente, pero el acartonamiento de sus músculos echa a perder ese poder."
Having acquired his complete form, Cell makes it clear to Vegeta who's in charge. Trunks, confident that he acquired a strength that surpassed that of his father, stands up to him (to Cell), but the stiffening of his muscles made him lose that power.
"Vegeta habia intuido la descompensación de su transformación. Incluso Cell se muestra decepcionado"
Vegeta had understood the disadvantage of his transformation. Even Cell is shown disappointed.
"Trunks adquiere una fuerza diez veces superior, pero su capacidad de movimíento es más limitada."
Trunks acquired a strength ten times superior, but his movement capacity is more limited.
"Luchadores que superan sus límites"
Warriors that surpass their limits.
"Vegeta y Trunks"
Vegeta and Trunks
"Vegeta comprendió que no podria derrotar ni a Cell ni a los androides, aun siendo un supersaiyano. Empezó su entrenamiento para superar sus limites. Se fue a la sala del espiritu y el tiempo, y consiguió alcanzar un nivel superior. Tras finalizar este valioso entrenamiento, la fuerza de Vegeta y Trunks era muy superior a la del A-17 e incluso a la de Cell en su forma semicompleta."
Vegeta understood that he wouldn't be able to defeat neither Cell nor the androids, despite being a Super Saiyan. He started his training to surpass his limits. He went to the room of spirit and time, and found a way to reach a superior level. After finishing this important (or valuable) training, the strength of Vegeta and Trunks were far superior of that of A-17 as well as Cell in his Semicomplete form.
"Trunks se extraña por el estado de Vegeta, pero Goku se da cuenta de lo que siente."
Trunks is confused (or weirded out, or estranged, choose your pick, but I think confused makes the most sense) by Vegeta's state, but Goku takes notice of what he feels.
"Los hinchados musculos de Vegeta dejan entrever el aumento de su fuerza."
The swollen muscles of Vegeta allow a glimpse to the increase in his strength.
"El error de Trunks"
The error of Trunks (or Trunks's error)
"Habiendo adquirido su forma completa, Cell deja claro a Vegeta quién es el que manda. Trunks, confiado en que había conseguido una fuerza que superaba a la de su padre, le hace frente, pero el acartonamiento de sus músculos echa a perder ese poder."
Having acquired his complete form, Cell makes it clear to Vegeta who's in charge. Trunks, confident that he acquired a strength that surpassed that of his father, stands up to him (to Cell), but the stiffening of his muscles made him lose that power.
"Vegeta habia intuido la descompensación de su transformación. Incluso Cell se muestra decepcionado"
Vegeta had understood the disadvantage of his transformation. Even Cell is shown disappointed.
"Trunks adquiere una fuerza diez veces superior, pero su capacidad de movimíento es más limitada."
Trunks acquired a strength ten times superior, but his movement capacity is more limited.
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Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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Well this is a pretty explicit multiplier statement, so that is fantastic
Do we have a statement regarding if Vegeta surpassed Semi-Perfect Cell as a regular Super Saiyan? Iirc Piccolo noted that Vegeta's ki is larger than Cell's
Do we have a statement regarding if Vegeta surpassed Semi-Perfect Cell as a regular Super Saiyan? Iirc Piccolo noted that Vegeta's ki is larger than Cell's
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- Thread starter
- #538
Vegeta as a regular SSJ surpassed his SSG2 after the chamber and so did trunks. But I don't think this multiplier will be accepted.
Anyway we're done, we can apply this to the profiles and let's leace this for another thread so as to not derail.
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All these translations should be collected in scans and then referenced both on the scan and on the wiki once applied.
You can take help from the References page.
You can take help from the References page.
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You're telling me I have to add references... dammit I thought I was done.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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And why exactly? If other scans from that guide are accepted, such as Shin = Cell Games SSJ Goku despite having the same basis as this one, then why that one shouldn't?
Is it because you simply don't want it to be accepted?
This isn't derailing. The CRT is talking about DBZ Powerscaling, and this is a part of it
I'll add the translation to the scan I showed
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No I want this to be accepted, I just don't think it will because of the very strict multiplier standards of the site, this multiplier will make SSJ2 500x and SSB 25000x and that's a massive increase to the stats, and the only thing we have is this one guide statement. Unlike the SSJ multipliers which has a lot of evidence supporting it.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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There is nothing that contradicts this either. Nothing story wise will change if SSJ Grade 3 is 10 times more than Grade 2 or any other arbitrary number.
While yeah I don't believe it would be easy, ignoring it while using other statements from the same guide (such as Shin = Cell Games SSJ Goku) that weren't shown anywhere else would be a massive double standard and will give the impression that they only ignore this because they don't want this accepted rather than it being wrong
Besides, this does make a lot of sense narrative wise since in both the Cell and Buu Saga, SSJ2 was treated as a whole different league compared to just SSJ
Again, we're using for this blog the statement regarding Shin as well, despite it also only have appeared in there
There are also zero contraductions to this, and in general there isn't any additional information about the form, so there's nothing going against it
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GodlyCharmander
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That's unreasonable, and slightly false equivalency. This was accepted because not only does it not contradict anything, but it also aligns with the manga statement about Dabura being as strong as Cell.
Multipliers were directly stated in far more reliable guides, yet, they were rejected either way. You seem to think that, because one specific thing from a certain guide is accepted, this means that automatically everything the guide says is the absolute truth. No, it's not. It's a case-by-case thing, Shin = SSJ Goku was accepted because it was reasonable, the 10x multiplier unsupported by other guides or the manga itself (not even the Anime) doesn't seem nearly as reasonable.
You're turning this into something personal. He said he thinks it won't be accepted, aka, the Wiki itself won't accept it.
Also, no, this thread is just discussing methods and multipliers that were already accepted to fix scaling. You should absolutely discuss this in a Multiplier CRT, and not here.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Gilad seems to think the lack of contradictions means something is absolutely reasonable by default. It doesn't.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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Dabura being as strong as Cell means nothing about Shin's power, so by your logic why should we accept it?
Why is it unreasonable exactly? And while yes it's a case by case basis, would you mind explaining why this is wrong?
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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Then explain why it isn't, because I still never heard anything that even resembles an explaination from you. You're not automatically right and I'll not just take what you say without you proving why it is wrong
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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The same applies to you, though. Still, although it's not my job to do so, okay.
Something lacking contradictions, although a decent supporting evidence, does not work as definitive proof for it being reasonable to use. When it comes to multipliers, we're considerably more restricted about accepting it, your proposal is to make the the overall power of the verse (who scales above Trunks) 5 times stronger based on a statement in a spanish guide. This is a significant increase regardless on how you see it.
The problem being it's lack of support, which is a direct contrast with the lack of contradictions. The information about Grade 3 multiplying one's strength by a factor of 10 is not consistent throughout the guides which talks about said form, in fact, it's inconsistent. Daizenshuu, V-Jump, Chōzenshuu, the latter being corrected directly by the author himself, does not state such a multiplier anywhere.
El Legendario Manga has also had misinformation before, such as calling any "Chi" Attack as a light attack, such as the Kamehameha. Not saying this makes the guide unusable by any means, but things in it should be taken with a grain of salt.
There's also the fact the manga itself does not allude to such a multiplier, which would be okay if it was consistent for more than one guide.
Stack all of this together: Lack of support, coming from a not-100%-reliable source, no support from the manga, and you will see that... You really need more than "it's not contradicted" to make it reasonable.
Hope you understand my point. There's no point in stating anything from Shin = Cell Saga SSJ Goku, as it's not a multiplier, and is somewhat supported by the manga.
The Manga puts Shin as someone who can one shot Freeza, but at the same time, one who has to be careful when fighting Dabura who is comparable to Cell. Cell Saga SSJ Goku-Level fits this nicely.
Even if you argue this shouldn't be used for the same reasons, this wouldn't make the multiplier okay.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
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That's more reasonable response.
However, none of the other guides also said anything against it. The only thing they said is that SSJ Grade 3 is much more powerful than Grade 2, and Cell also noted in the manga that Trunk's power with that form far surpasses his, while in Grade 2 it was nothing
Also, your entire reasoning to why it should be used is because "oh my god numbers too high wAnK", even though it doesn't affect the overall story in any way
So basically, there's nothing that contradicts the scaling in any way
Still doesn't mean it should be used without more evidence according to you. Just because it fits well into what you think doesn't mean it's automatically reasonable
And mych like your example, SSJ Grade 3 is portrayed as being far above Cell's suppressed power, but at the same time this Cell treats SSJ Grade 2 like it's nothing compared to him. A 10 times multiplier fits this very nicely too, but since that's coming from me, it's automatically wrong, while your statement about Shin is 100% true because you think it makes sense, even though the same thing you said can also be said here
Then use none of the statements. What you're doing is still a double standard since picking statements from this guide is ok if you do it, but when I do it too it must be wrong
Either use both statements, or none of them. Picking one statement that only appeared there and never on anywhere else (though it has no contradictions), but ignoring the other that has the exact same situation, is a double standard
Disclaimer: This is not a personal attack against you. And if I offended you I apologize
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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You are just repeating the "lack contradictions" argument which I addressed already. As I said, you'd need more.
Cell states that Trunks' strength is greater than his, yes. That still does not allude to a specific multiplier, so it supports all guides, not one in particular.
You're taking things personally again. Any consirable multiplier fits this nicely, actually, it doesn't even have to be a multiplier to fit this narrative.
The Daizenshuu states the following:
Far Superior than a 7-year trained Super Piccolo is a direct support, on top of everything else. As the statement about Shin is not a multiplier, the support it needs does not need to be as specific, or strong to be reasonable. That is why I don't understand why would compare the two.
It is not a matter of me or you. It's about both statements in question.
It's not "double standards" because the statements and what they are proposing are far different. We have one standard for statements alluding to scaling, and a different one for statements alluding to multipliers. You need far less evidence for the former, and far more for the latter. Yes, Shin = SSJ Goku is reasonable with this evidence, but Trunks x10 isn't.
It is not the exact same situation, as I said, it's two different cases that have two different effects on powerscaling.
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Bump
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- #555
@Nullflowerblush Hey flower man, can you tell me where this scan is from?
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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
I have finished adding references to the profiles. The problem though is that I'm using 2 different sites for the manga scans, and they give different chapter numbers I don't know which one is right and which one is wrong and I need to be consistent but they are mixed up now. And the tragedy is that I realized this after I was done so I have to go back tomorrow and figure out what the hell is what.
I have finished adding references to the profiles. The problem though is that I'm using 2 different sites for the manga scans, and they give different chapter numbers I don't know which one is right and which one is wrong and I need to be consistent but they are mixed up now. And the tragedy is that I realized this after I was done so I have to go back tomorrow and figure out what the hell is what.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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For some reason, there's a DBZ stand-alone manga release. If the difference is significant, it's probably because of that.
If the difference is not that great, it's probably the original release vs kanzenban 2007 release, the latter which has fewer chapter, I believe
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Helpful. I have two different types of scans from the two sites, the first is the one were the majority of the profiles in my blog have which looks like someone took a picture of the page with a nokia phone then photocopied it a 10 times with an old printer with low ink and then converted it into an mp3 file. The second is the crisp beautiful looking colored scans like the ones in the OP, and the first comments of the first page, that don't freaking allow to be linked for some reason and don't work. So I'm forced to either use different scans or download them which doesn't seem to work anymore. So I think I'll use the bad scans in the profiles but use the chapter numbers of the good scans because they look reliable.
Stefano4444
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So there is anything else to be add/agree or that new scaling its ready to be apply on the profiles?
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Okay I'm finished adding references for real now. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
But I have a question, when do we add an "at least" for the ratings? Is it fine to add it when one character scales far above the value they are rated at?
But I have a question, when do we add an "at least" for the ratings? Is it fine to add it when one character scales far above the value they are rated at?
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