Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Eh, semantics. Either way, still won't affect scaling significantly.

These are just values. Nothing changes otherwise

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I'm so pissed that the kaioken 10x scaling is only a likely and not a full tier, it makes the format of the ratings look so ugly and a pain in the ass to edit.
Anyway I have edited my blog, I added all the speed values that the characters scale to but now with the downgraded calculation.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
The only big change is that everyone who scales to post zenkai namek Goku are now "At least FTL, likely FTL+" as opposed to "FTL+, likely higher" though they are really close to FTL+ so we can just upscale them to 10c and make the tier FTL+, likely higher but opinions would be appreciated. I will also add more characters that need to be changed and add the striking strength and durability part for all the profiles.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You guys got a translated version of this scan?
Anyway my blog is done now and we can now apply the changes to the profiles.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling

 

[Shadyboi0]

re really close to FTL+

1.2x difference?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

1.2x difference?

1.15x difference and a huge amount of scaling above that.

 

[Shadyboi0]

1.15x difference and a huge amount of scaling above that.

confirmed upscale?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

confirmed upscale?

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

You guys got a translated version of this scan?
Anyway my blog is done now and we can now apply the changes to the profiles.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling

The only important info in that scan is that Shin is around the level of Goku during the Cell Games. Everything else is basically stuff already explained in the story sadly (this guide seems to only reveal one or two guide exclusive info every page).

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The only important info in that scan is that Shin is around the level of Goku during the Cell Games. Everything else is basically stuff already explained in the story sadly (this guide seems to only reveal one or two guide exclusive info every page).

Yes I know that is exactly what I want. It's just I want it translated so that I can use it as a scan for the profiles in shin's justification.

 

[EmilioRory10]

You guys got a translated version of this scan?

I speak spanish so I could try, but no I don't have the translated version of the scan itself

Spoiler: translation (maybe accurate)

Las habilidades del Kaio Shin"
The abilities of the Kaio Shin

"A pesar de ocultar su fuerza cuando se conocieron, Goku sospechó que no era alguien corriente"
Despite hiding his strength when they met, Goku suspected that he wasn't a normal person

"Aunque tiene unas habilidades fuera de lo común, no parece que supere en fuerza de combate a los supersaiyanos"
Even though he has some abilities outside the common, it doesn't look like he is superior to the super saiyans in combat power"

"A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar a Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game"
Judging from the precautions he takes with Dabura, who is on a similar level to Cell, you could deduce he has the same strength Goku had during the Cell Games

"Más adelante, su poder aumenta al fusionarse con Kibito, pero ni siquiera así pudo luchar con Bu con garantías"
Later on, his power increases when he fuses with Kibito, but not even then could he fight against Bu

 

[Nullflowerblush]

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I speak spanish so I could try, but no I don't have the translated version of the scan itself

Spoiler: translation (maybe accurate)

Las habilidades del Kaio Shin"
The abilities of the Kaio Shin

"A pesar de ocultar su fuerza cuando se conocieron, Goku sospechó que no era alguien corriente"
Despite hiding his strength when they met, Goku suspected that he wasn't a normal person

"Aunque tiene unas habilidades fuera de lo común, no parece que supere en fuerza de combate a los supersaiyanos"
Even though he has some abilities outside the common, it doesn't look like he is superior to the super saiyans in combat power"

"A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar a Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game"
Judging from the precautions he takes with Dabura, who is on a similar level to Cell, you could deduce he has the same strength Goku had during the Cell Games

"Más adelante, su poder aumenta al fusionarse con Kibito, pero ni siquiera así pudo luchar con Bu con garantías"
Later on, his power increases when he fuses with Kibito, but not even then could he fight against Bu

Very accurate

That's perfect, thanks you're all awesome.
Anyway who's editing the profiles...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Super Saiyan Grade 3 is stated to be 10 times stronger than regular SSJ (or Grade 2 SSJ). FP SSJ Goku at 50% of his power shocked Vegeta and Trunks with his power, despite Trunks using said SSJ Grade 3

In the wiki page for SSJ Grade 3, it was stated that: "Trunks acquires a force 10 times greater, but his movement skills are more limited.", which is likely referring to his Grade 2 SSJ form, which he used before powering up further

So: 100% FP SSJ Goku = 2 * 50% FP SSJ Goku >> SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks >= 10 * SSJ Grade 2 Trunks (Post-HBTC) >> Semi Perfect Cell > 2 * Present Android 17 > Android Saga SSJ Vegeta > Future Android 17 = 489 Tenatons

That would mean that:

SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks = 9,780 Tenatons = 4.091952e+43 joules = 0.4091952 Foe = High 4-C

100% FP SSJ Goku = 19,560 Tenatons = 8.183904e+43 joules = 0.8183904 Foe = High 4-C

Base Goku = 391.2 Tenatons = 4-C

That said, I would want if someone could translate what does this scan says in Spanish, as it might have more important information

If we're using scenes from El Manga Legendario, then we also have this scene here about SSJ Grade 3 to use

If anyone can post the translation it would be amazing since I don't know Spanish

 

[BlastX]

I speak spanish so I can try

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

But the Kaizenshuu scan for FTL Death Beams is enough

Can someone give me a scan about this for reference?

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

@Gilad_Hyperstar here ya go

"Luchadores que superan sus límites"
Warriors that surpass their limits.

"Vegeta y Trunks"
Vegeta and Trunks

"Vegeta comprendió que no podria derrotar ni a Cell ni a los androides, aun siendo un supersaiyano. Empezó su entrenamiento para superar sus limites. Se fue a la sala del espiritu y el tiempo, y consiguió alcanzar un nivel superior. Tras finalizar este valioso entrenamiento, la fuerza de Vegeta y Trunks era muy superior a la del A-17 e incluso a la de Cell en su forma semicompleta."
Vegeta understood that he wouldn't be able to defeat neither Cell nor the androids, despite being a Super Saiyan. He started his training to surpass his limits. He went to the room of spirit and time, and found a way to reach a superior level. After finishing this important (or valuable) training, the strength of Vegeta and Trunks were far superior of that of A-17 as well as Cell in his Semicomplete form.

"Trunks se extraña por el estado de Vegeta, pero Goku se da cuenta de lo que siente."
Trunks is confused (or weirded out, or estranged, choose your pick, but I think confused makes the most sense) by Vegeta's state, but Goku takes notice of what he feels.

"Los hinchados musculos de Vegeta dejan entrever el aumento de su fuerza."
The swollen muscles of Vegeta allow a glimpse to the increase in his strength.

"El error de Trunks"
The error of Trunks (or Trunks's error)

"Habiendo adquirido su forma completa, Cell deja claro a Vegeta quién es el que manda. Trunks, confiado en que había conseguido una fuerza que superaba a la de su padre, le hace frente, pero el acartonamiento de sus músculos echa a perder ese poder."
Having acquired his complete form, Cell makes it clear to Vegeta who's in charge. Trunks, confident that he acquired a strength that surpassed that of his father, stands up to him (to Cell), but the stiffening of his muscles made him lose that power.

"Vegeta habia intuido la descompensación de su transformación. Incluso Cell se muestra decepcionado"
Vegeta had understood the disadvantage of his transformation. Even Cell is shown disappointed.

"Trunks adquiere una fuerza diez veces superior, pero su capacidad de movimíento es más limitada."
Trunks acquired a strength ten times superior, but his movement capacity is more limited.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well this is a pretty explicit multiplier statement, so that is fantastic

Do we have a statement regarding if Vegeta surpassed Semi-Perfect Cell as a regular Super Saiyan? Iirc Piccolo noted that Vegeta's ki is larger than Cell's

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well this is a pretty explicit multiplier statement, so that is fantastic

Do we have a statement regarding if Vegeta surpassed Semi-Perfect Cell as a regular Super Saiyan? Iirc Piccolo noted that Vegeta's ki is larger than Cell's

Vegeta as a regular SSJ surpassed his SSG2 after the chamber and so did trunks. But I don't think this multiplier will be accepted.
Anyway we're done, we can apply this to the profiles and let's leace this for another thread so as to not derail.

 

[KLOL506]

All these translations should be collected in scans and then referenced both on the scan and on the wiki once applied.

You can take help from the References page.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

All these translations should be collected in scans and then referenced both on the scan and on the wiki once applied.

You can take help from the References page.

You're telling me I have to add references... dammit I thought I was done.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Vegeta as a regular SSJ surpassed his SSG2 after the chamber and so did trunks. But I don't think this multiplier will be accepted.

And why exactly? If other scans from that guide are accepted, such as Shin = Cell Games SSJ Goku despite having the same basis as this one, then why that one shouldn't?

Is it because you simply don't want it to be accepted?

Anyway we're done, we can apply this to the profiles and let's leace this for another thread so as to not derail.

This isn't derailing. The CRT is talking about DBZ Powerscaling, and this is a part of it

All these translations should be collected in scans and then referenced both on the scan and on the wiki once applied.

You can take help from the References page.

I'll add the translation to the scan I showed

 

[KLOL506]

You're telling me I have to add references... dammit I thought I was done.

Suffer like I suffered, mwahahahahahahahaha

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

And why exactly? If other scans from that guide are accepted, such as Shin = Cell Games SSJ Goku despite having the same basis as this one, then why that one shouldn't?

Is it because you simply don't want it to be accepted?

This isn't derailing. The CRT is talking about DBZ Powerscaling, and this is a part of it

I'll add the translation to the scan I showed

No I want this to be accepted, I just don't think it will because of the very strict multiplier standards of the site, this multiplier will make SSJ2 500x and SSB 25000x and that's a massive increase to the stats, and the only thing we have is this one guide statement. Unlike the SSJ multipliers which has a lot of evidence supporting it.

Suffer like I suffered, mwahahahahahahahaha

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No I want this to be accepted, I just don't think it will because of the very strict multiplier standards of the site, this multiplier will make SSJ2 500x and SSB 25000x and that's a massive increase to the stats,

There is nothing that contradicts this either. Nothing story wise will change if SSJ Grade 3 is 10 times more than Grade 2 or any other arbitrary number.

While yeah I don't believe it would be easy, ignoring it while using other statements from the same guide (such as Shin = Cell Games SSJ Goku) that weren't shown anywhere else would be a massive double standard and will give the impression that they only ignore this because they don't want this accepted rather than it being wrong

Besides, this does make a lot of sense narrative wise since in both the Cell and Buu Saga, SSJ2 was treated as a whole different league compared to just SSJ

and the only thing we have is this one guide statement.

Again, we're using for this blog the statement regarding Shin as well, despite it also only have appeared in there

Unlike the SSJ multipliers which has a lot of evidence supporting it.

There are also zero contraductions to this, and in general there isn't any additional information about the form, so there's nothing going against it

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

While yeah I don't believe it would be easy, ignoring it while using other statements from the same guide (such as Shin = Cell Games SSJ Goku) that weren't shown anywhere else would be a massive double standard and will give the impression that they only ignore this because they don't want this accepted rather than it being wrong

Pretty much why the multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 are not accepted here kek.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

And why exactly? If other scans from that guide are accepted, such as Shin = Cell Games SSJ Goku despite having the same basis as this one, then why that one shouldn't?

That's unreasonable, and slightly false equivalency. This was accepted because not only does it not contradict anything, but it also aligns with the manga statement about Dabura being as strong as Cell.

Multipliers were directly stated in far more reliable guides, yet, they were rejected either way. You seem to think that, because one specific thing from a certain guide is accepted, this means that automatically everything the guide says is the absolute truth. No, it's not. It's a case-by-case thing, Shin = SSJ Goku was accepted because it was reasonable, the 10x multiplier unsupported by other guides or the manga itself (not even the Anime) doesn't seem nearly as reasonable.

Is it because you simply don't want it to be accepted?

You're turning this into something personal. He said he thinks it won't be accepted, aka, the Wiki itself won't accept it.

Also, no, this thread is just discussing methods and multipliers that were already accepted to fix scaling. You should absolutely discuss this in a Multiplier CRT, and not here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Gilad seems to think the lack of contradictions means something is absolutely reasonable by default. It doesn't.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That's unreasonable, and slightly false equivalency. This was accepted because not only does it not contradict anything, but it also aligns with the manga statement about Dabura being as strong as Cell.

Dabura being as strong as Cell means nothing about Shin's power, so by your logic why should we accept it?

Multipliers was directly stated in far more reliable guides, yet, they were rejected either way. You seem to think that, because one specific thing from a certain guide is accepted, this means that automatically everything the guide says is the absolute truth. No, it's not. It's a case-by-case thing, Shin = SSJ Goku was accepted because it was reasonable, the 10x multiplier unsupported by other guides or the manga itself (not even the Anime) doesn't seem nearly as reasonable.

Why is it unreasonable exactly? And while yes it's a case by case basis, would you mind explaining why this is wrong?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Gilad seems to think the lack of contradictions means something is absolutely reasonable by default. It doesn't.

Then explain why it isn't, because I still never heard anything that even resembles an explaination from you. You're not automatically right and I'll not just take what you say without you proving why it is wrong

 

[Shadyboi0]

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Then explain why it isn't, because I still never heard anything that even resembles an explaination from you. You're not automatically right and I'll not just take what you say without you proving why it is wrong

The same applies to you, though. Still, although it's not my job to do so, okay.

Something lacking contradictions, although a decent supporting evidence, does not work as definitive proof for it being reasonable to use. When it comes to multipliers, we're considerably more restricted about accepting it, your proposal is to make the the overall power of the verse (who scales above Trunks) 5 times stronger based on a statement in a spanish guide. This is a significant increase regardless on how you see it.

The problem being it's lack of support, which is a direct contrast with the lack of contradictions. The information about Grade 3 multiplying one's strength by a factor of 10 is not consistent throughout the guides which talks about said form, in fact, it's inconsistent. Daizenshuu, V-Jump, Chōzenshuu, the latter being corrected directly by the author himself, does not state such a multiplier anywhere.

El Legendario Manga has also had misinformation before, such as calling any "Chi" Attack as a light attack, such as the Kamehameha. Not saying this makes the guide unusable by any means, but things in it should be taken with a grain of salt.

There's also the fact the manga itself does not allude to such a multiplier, which would be okay if it was consistent for more than one guide.

Stack all of this together: Lack of support, coming from a not-100%-reliable source, no support from the manga, and you will see that... You really need more than "it's not contradicted" to make it reasonable.


Hope you understand my point. There's no point in stating anything from Shin = Cell Saga SSJ Goku, as it's not a multiplier, and is somewhat supported by the manga.

The Manga puts Shin as someone who can one shot Freeza, but at the same time, one who has to be careful when fighting Dabura who is comparable to Cell. Cell Saga SSJ Goku-Level fits this nicely.

Even if you argue this shouldn't be used for the same reasons, this wouldn't make the multiplier okay.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The same applies to you, though. Still, although it's not my job to do so, okay.

Something lacking contradictions, although a decent supporting evidence, does not work as definitive proof for it being reasonable to use. When it comes to multipliers, we're considerably more restricted about accepting it, your proposal is to make the the overall power of the verse (who scales above Trunks) 5 times stronger based on a statement in a spanish guide. This is a significant increase regardless on how you see it.

The problem being it's lack of support, which is a direct contrast with the lack of contradictions. The information about Grade 3 multiplying one's strength by a factor of 10 is not consistent throughout the guides which talks about said form, in fact, it's inconsistent. Daizenshuu, V-Jump, Chōzenshuu, the latter being corrected directly by the author himself, does not state such a multiplier anywhere.

El Legendario Manga has also had misinformation before, such as calling any "Chi" Attack as a light attack, such as the Kamehameha. Not saying this makes the guide unusable by any means, but things in it should be taken with a grain of salt.

There's also the fact the manga itself does not allude to such a multiplier, which would be okay if it was consistent for more than one guide.

Stack all of this together: Lack of support, coming from a not-100%-reliable source, no support from the manga, and you will see that... You really need more than "it's not contradicted" to make it reasonable.


Hope you understand my point. There's no point in stating anything from Shin = Cell Saga SSJ Goku, as it's not a multiplier, and is somewhat supported by the manga.

That's more reasonable response.

However, none of the other guides also said anything against it. The only thing they said is that SSJ Grade 3 is much more powerful than Grade 2, and Cell also noted in the manga that Trunk's power with that form far surpasses his, while in Grade 2 it was nothing

Also, your entire reasoning to why it should be used is because "oh my god numbers too high wAnK", even though it doesn't affect the overall story in any way

So basically, there's nothing that contradicts the scaling in any way

The Manga puts Shin as someone who can one shot Freeza, but at the same time, one who has to be careful when fighting Dabura who is comparable to Cell. Cell Saga SSJ Goku-Level fits this nicely.

Still doesn't mean it should be used without more evidence according to you. Just because it fits well into what you think doesn't mean it's automatically reasonable

And mych like your example, SSJ Grade 3 is portrayed as being far above Cell's suppressed power, but at the same time this Cell treats SSJ Grade 2 like it's nothing compared to him. A 10 times multiplier fits this very nicely too, but since that's coming from me, it's automatically wrong, while your statement about Shin is 100% true because you think it makes sense, even though the same thing you said can also be said here

Even if you argue this shouldn't be used for the same reasons, this wouldn't make the multiplier okay.

Then use none of the statements. What you're doing is still a double standard since picking statements from this guide is ok if you do it, but when I do it too it must be wrong

Either use both statements, or none of them. Picking one statement that only appeared there and never on anywhere else (though it has no contradictions), but ignoring the other that has the exact same situation, is a double standard

Disclaimer: This is not a personal attack against you. And if I offended you I apologize

 

[GodlyCharmander]

However, none of the other guides also said anything against it. The only thing they said is that SSJ Grade 3 is much more powerful than Grade 2, and Cell also noted in the manga that Trunk's power with that form far surpasses his, while in Grade 2 it was nothing

So basically, there's nothing that contradicts the scaling in any way.

You are just repeating the "lack contradictions" argument which I addressed already. As I said, you'd need more.

Cell states that Trunks' strength is greater than his, yes. That still does not allude to a specific multiplier, so it supports all guides, not one in particular.

Still doesn't mean it should be used without more evidence according to you. Just because it fits well into what you think doesn't mean it's automatically reasonable.

And much like your example, SSJ Grade 3 is portrayed as being far above Cell's suppressed power, but at the same time this Cell treats SSJ Grade 2 like it's nothing compared to him. A 10 times multiplier fits this very nicely too, but since that's coming from me, it's automatically wrong, while your statement about Shin is 100% true because you think it makes sense, even though the same thing you said can also be said here

You're taking things personally again. Any consirable multiplier fits this nicely, actually, it doesn't even have to be a multiplier to fit this narrative.
The Daizenshuu states the following:

Far Superior than a 7-year trained Super Piccolo is a direct support, on top of everything else. As the statement about Shin is not a multiplier, the support it needs does not need to be as specific, or strong to be reasonable. That is why I don't understand why would compare the two.

Then use none of the statements. What you're doing is still a double standard since picking statements from this guide is ok if you do it, but when I do it too it must be wrong.

It is not a matter of me or you. It's about both statements in question.

It's not "double standards" because the statements and what they are proposing are far different. We have one standard for statements alluding to scaling, and a different one for statements alluding to multipliers. You need far less evidence for the former, and far more for the latter. Yes, Shin = SSJ Goku is reasonable with this evidence, but Trunks x10 isn't.

Either use both statements, or none of them. Picking one statement that only appeared there and never on anywhere else (though it has no contradictions), but ignoring the other that has the exact same situation, is a double standard

It is not the exact same situation, as I said, it's two different cases that have two different effects on powerscaling.

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

@Nullflowerblush Hey flower man, can you tell me where this scan is from?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
I have finished adding references to the profiles. The problem though is that I'm using 2 different sites for the manga scans, and they give different chapter numbers I don't know which one is right and which one is wrong and I need to be consistent but they are mixed up now. And the tragedy is that I realized this after I was done so I have to go back tomorrow and figure out what the hell is what.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
I have finished adding references to the profiles. The problem though is that I'm using 2 different sites for the manga scans, and they give different chapter numbers I don't know which one is right and which one is wrong and I need to be consistent but they are mixed up now. And the tragedy is that I realized this after I was done so I have to go back tomorrow and figure out what the hell is what.

For some reason, there's a DBZ stand-alone manga release. If the difference is significant, it's probably because of that.

If the difference is not that great, it's probably the original release vs kanzenban 2007 release, the latter which has fewer chapter, I believe

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

For some reason, there's a DBZ stand-alone manga release. If the difference is significant, it's probably because of that.

If the difference is not that great, it's probably the original release vs kanzenban 2007 release, the latter which has fewer chapter, I believe

Helpful. I have two different types of scans from the two sites, the first is the one were the majority of the profiles in my blog have which looks like someone took a picture of the page with a nokia phone then photocopied it a 10 times with an old printer with low ink and then converted it into an mp3 file. The second is the crisp beautiful looking colored scans like the ones in the OP, and the first comments of the first page, that don't freaking allow to be linked for some reason and don't work. So I'm forced to either use different scans or download them which doesn't seem to work anymore. So I think I'll use the bad scans in the profiles but use the chapter numbers of the good scans because they look reliable.

 

[Stefano4444]

So there is anything else to be add/agree or that new scaling its ready to be apply on the profiles?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Okay I'm finished adding references for real now. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling
But I have a question, when do we add an "at least" for the ratings? Is it fine to add it when one character scales far above the value they are rated at?