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so, this thread was made and put the number of universal space times as 6 for the macrocosm of dragon ball, some problems tho:
this one will likely change when the thread upgrading the size of the afterlife gets accepted, but as of now there is also no proof that it is universal in size, it is simply 1/10 of the entire macrocosm in size, with the only 2 universal in size structures makes this realm only 3-B in size instead of the required Universal size, with the op of the thread also providing no proof for it to be universal in size
DDM pointed out good points for the kaioshin realm being likely the size of a universe, so now anyone reading this can ignore this part
tl;dr: none of the realms suggested in the thread have any proof of being big enough to be low 2-C even tho they are space times, so we should downgrade dbs/db toei and gt back to the number of universal space times they had before
Agree completely:
@Theglassman12 , @Elizhaa (also suggests on removing hell as a space time at all, with it just being part of the afterlife), @Maverick_Zero_X ,@Hasty12345, @AKUTO123, @Shiraito983, @RaveeCPN, @Akagami_Shanks1, @Hiryu-Z, @Phsccarvalho, @BestMGQScalerEver, @TheGodOfICE777, @Reiner, @Boyinluv2002, @Stefano4444
Agree on the removal of demon realm: @LordGriffin1000, @LuffyRuffy46307, @CloverDragon03, @TiltedFN, @AwkguyDB, @TheGreatBanana, @Vietthai96
Agree on removing hell: @Matrixxxx, @AguilaR202
Disagree:
Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus (Agrees on 3 universal space times minimum, but also said that hell is in the same space as the afterlife, so waiting for further response)
the cake of it all, the op in the thread simply assumed that since the realms are separated by space-time dimensional they all must be low 2-C space times, which is not true, in Ultima's thread it was concluded that the walls are the fabric of space time, and that affecting it would be low 2-C at worst, but it was proposed there that the wall itself is a 2-C construct separating the dimensions of the macrocosm, hence why buuhan destroying it is a 2-C feat for the toei continuity, so in summary, it is nothing more than a barrier separating the dimensions spatio temporaly, aka making all the realms separated space times, however as per our low 2-C standards:
"Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale."
td;dr: unless the realms are of universal in size, they merely being spatio temporaly separated is not enough for they to be low 2-C
"Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale."
td;dr: unless the realms are of universal in size, they merely being spatio temporaly separated is not enough for they to be low 2-C
no problems with it being a space time, the problem is that there is no proof of its size for it to be a low 2-C structure, as per our standards a space time is only valid as a low 2-C structure if it is the size of a universe, we use our observable universe as the metric to determine if it is universal in size, the only justification given there for it to be low 2-C in size is:
"It is also mentioned that they break dimensional barriers when entering that super dimension, as everyone knows in the novel details that the Universe could not support such power, so we can assume that dimension is at least low size 2-C or 2-C to withstand so much energy from both."
which is not a proof of its size at all, we don't give size based on what structures handle in power, this is just a durability feat for it, no other proof for its size being universal is the thread, only more proof that it is another space time, a 4D structure, and that it is another dimension
without proof of the size of it being universal
some other proofs that the thread gives for it to be a low 2-C structure is this and this using the word "extra and super dimensional", which in the first one is merely used as a cool word to describe the battle itself and not the place where it is tanking place(heck the statement is made before they enter the dimension in the first place) "Hyperdimensional (or superdimensional) Ultimate Battle!!", and the second is doing basically the same, the image used in the poster is of goku and vegeta blue attacking broly even, it is not talking about the dimension of swirling lights also
plus terms like "extra dimensional" and "superdimensional" means very little without further elaboration anyway, the only thing legit talking about the dimension is the interview, which talks about how it is a place above 3D, which is true since it is a space time, but again, with no proof that it is universal in size it cannot be low 2-C as per our standards
edit: apparently one other reason for it to be low 2-C is because broly and gogeta broke a dimensional wall to get there and then continue to break more from inside of it to get out, well the problem with this is that the dimensional walls are just fabric of space time with no size, so having inside of there wouldn't mean that it is a low 2-C strucuture by default, plus it is never said that they are insider of there, only that gogeta and broly broke them as they fought there, which happened even when they were in the living universe, as they are still withing the macrocosm they will affect the dimensional barriers that make that dimension separated from the others if they hit hard enough, so this is not really a proof of it being low 2-C either
edit 2: elaboraring more, the so called "dimensional barriers" are nothing more than the very fabric of space time as accepted here, so having them inside only means that the DOSL is indeed a space time, but every realm has it as every realm is a space time as concluded in the ultima thread, so in conclusion, all that this proves is that indeed the dimension is a space time, but still, without a universal size we can't say that it is a low 2-C space time
"It is also mentioned that they break dimensional barriers when entering that super dimension, as everyone knows in the novel details that the Universe could not support such power, so we can assume that dimension is at least low size 2-C or 2-C to withstand so much energy from both."
which is not a proof of its size at all, we don't give size based on what structures handle in power, this is just a durability feat for it, no other proof for its size being universal is the thread, only more proof that it is another space time, a 4D structure, and that it is another dimension
without proof of the size of it being universal
some other proofs that the thread gives for it to be a low 2-C structure is this and this using the word "extra and super dimensional", which in the first one is merely used as a cool word to describe the battle itself and not the place where it is tanking place(heck the statement is made before they enter the dimension in the first place) "Hyperdimensional (or superdimensional) Ultimate Battle!!", and the second is doing basically the same, the image used in the poster is of goku and vegeta blue attacking broly even, it is not talking about the dimension of swirling lights also
plus terms like "extra dimensional" and "superdimensional" means very little without further elaboration anyway, the only thing legit talking about the dimension is the interview, which talks about how it is a place above 3D, which is true since it is a space time, but again, with no proof that it is universal in size it cannot be low 2-C as per our standards
edit: apparently one other reason for it to be low 2-C is because broly and gogeta broke a dimensional wall to get there and then continue to break more from inside of it to get out, well the problem with this is that the dimensional walls are just fabric of space time with no size, so having inside of there wouldn't mean that it is a low 2-C strucuture by default, plus it is never said that they are insider of there, only that gogeta and broly broke them as they fought there, which happened even when they were in the living universe, as they are still withing the macrocosm they will affect the dimensional barriers that make that dimension separated from the others if they hit hard enough, so this is not really a proof of it being low 2-C either
edit 2: elaboraring more, the so called "dimensional barriers" are nothing more than the very fabric of space time as accepted here, so having them inside only means that the DOSL is indeed a space time, but every realm has it as every realm is a space time as concluded in the ultima thread, so in conclusion, all that this proves is that indeed the dimension is a space time, but still, without a universal size we can't say that it is a low 2-C space time
one of the most simple of them all, there is absolutely no proof of its size in the thread, nothing about its size whatsoever, so simple enough, not low 2-C without proof that it is universal in size
edit: some people in the thread are trying to argue that hell is indeed universal in size for being bigger than heaven based on the macrocosm map, however that map was accepted as not being on scale in sizes here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-universe-crt.150545/
with it having several contradictions on the size and scale department with the series
edit2: another argument brought up is that since hell is bellow the cloud layer we can use that do determine its size, however that is also impossible since hell is another space time, so by our standards it cannot be physically bellow the cloud layer or else it would be physically connected with the rest of the afterlife, which is not a possible thing for separated space times as per our standards from the universe page:
"It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes."
, as such, we can't use that to determine its size while still being another space time, as such it would be completely separated and not physically bellow the clouds, so we can't use it to determine a size for hell
edit: some people in the thread are trying to argue that hell is indeed universal in size for being bigger than heaven based on the macrocosm map, however that map was accepted as not being on scale in sizes here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-universe-crt.150545/
with it having several contradictions on the size and scale department with the series
edit2: another argument brought up is that since hell is bellow the cloud layer we can use that do determine its size, however that is also impossible since hell is another space time, so by our standards it cannot be physically bellow the cloud layer or else it would be physically connected with the rest of the afterlife, which is not a possible thing for separated space times as per our standards from the universe page:
"It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes."
, as such, we can't use that to determine its size while still being another space time, as such it would be completely separated and not physically bellow the clouds, so we can't use it to determine a size for hell
the demon realm also has shown no proof of being universal in size, in fact, the thread shows evidence of it not even being an alternate dimension, but a "world" inside the living universe:
"A world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "Hell;" it is a world confirmed to be in the Living World. However, magic holds greater influence than science. Similar to the obverse universe being split into east, west, south, and north areas, the Demon Realm is also split into multiple space areas. And the absolute king who commands all of this is Daabra."
with it also being comfirmed to not have been called a universe by shin but merely calling a "realm/world":
"according to hermes It’s 魔界, demon world/realm. I think Viz uses “plane” to emphasize that it’s a sort of alternative dimension rather than a planet. They used it for Yu Yu Hakusho too" while Herms thinks that it is saying that to emphasize that it is an alternate dimension, the other statements from guides disagree since they say that it is in the living world/living universe, also, even if it is an alternate dimension, we have a stated size for it from Akira himself:
"The Demon Realm is located in the universe, but its scale is very small, the size of a hideout for mages. The mages live in the Demon Realm like evil goblins." so yeah, it is very small in size and not universal as a low 2-C space time has to be by our standards, the only thing in there that could serve as proof that it is universal in size is this saying that it "takes the appearence of the reverse of that("that" referring to the universe) but since we have so many other statements saying that it is inside the living universe, it wouldn't make sense to be the same of it if it is inside it, also that part is completely unsourcered, there is no source saying where that comes from, the lower part of the text does, but not the upper text, so it isn't exactly trustful
also it is said that its scale is "very small" when compared to the universe, so even without the hideout part it still stated to be minuscule in comparison to the universe in size
but most importantly, it is not even saying that it is the complete opposite of the universe as a lower half, it is saying that its appearance is that of the of the reverse of the living universe and the afterlife, aka it looks the opposite of what the other 2 look like, it is talking about its aesthetic and nothing more, so overall, there is complete 0 proof that it is universal in size
"A world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "Hell;" it is a world confirmed to be in the Living World. However, magic holds greater influence than science. Similar to the obverse universe being split into east, west, south, and north areas, the Demon Realm is also split into multiple space areas. And the absolute king who commands all of this is Daabra."
with it also being comfirmed to not have been called a universe by shin but merely calling a "realm/world":
"according to hermes It’s 魔界, demon world/realm. I think Viz uses “plane” to emphasize that it’s a sort of alternative dimension rather than a planet. They used it for Yu Yu Hakusho too" while Herms thinks that it is saying that to emphasize that it is an alternate dimension, the other statements from guides disagree since they say that it is in the living world/living universe, also, even if it is an alternate dimension, we have a stated size for it from Akira himself:
"The Demon Realm is located in the universe, but its scale is very small, the size of a hideout for mages. The mages live in the Demon Realm like evil goblins." so yeah, it is very small in size and not universal as a low 2-C space time has to be by our standards, the only thing in there that could serve as proof that it is universal in size is this saying that it "takes the appearence of the reverse of that("that" referring to the universe) but since we have so many other statements saying that it is inside the living universe, it wouldn't make sense to be the same of it if it is inside it, also that part is completely unsourcered, there is no source saying where that comes from, the lower part of the text does, but not the upper text, so it isn't exactly trustful
also it is said that its scale is "very small" when compared to the universe, so even without the hideout part it still stated to be minuscule in comparison to the universe in size
but most importantly, it is not even saying that it is the complete opposite of the universe as a lower half, it is saying that its appearance is that of the of the reverse of the living universe and the afterlife, aka it looks the opposite of what the other 2 look like, it is talking about its aesthetic and nothing more, so overall, there is complete 0 proof that it is universal in size
DDM pointed out good points for the kaioshin realm being likely the size of a universe, so now anyone reading this can ignore this part
tl;dr: none of the realms suggested in the thread have any proof of being big enough to be low 2-C even tho they are space times, so we should downgrade dbs/db toei and gt back to the number of universal space times they had before
Agree completely:
@Theglassman12 , @Elizhaa (also suggests on removing hell as a space time at all, with it just being part of the afterlife), @Maverick_Zero_X ,@Hasty12345, @AKUTO123, @Shiraito983, @RaveeCPN, @Akagami_Shanks1, @Hiryu-Z, @Phsccarvalho, @BestMGQScalerEver, @TheGodOfICE777, @Reiner, @Boyinluv2002, @Stefano4444
Agree on the removal of demon realm: @LordGriffin1000, @LuffyRuffy46307, @CloverDragon03, @TiltedFN, @AwkguyDB, @TheGreatBanana, @Vietthai96
Agree on removing hell: @Matrixxxx, @AguilaR202
Disagree:
Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus (Agrees on 3 universal space times minimum, but also said that hell is in the same space as the afterlife, so waiting for further response)
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