• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Messages
12,473
Reaction score
4,484
so, this thread was made and put the number of universal space times as 6 for the macrocosm of dragon ball, some problems tho:

the cake of it all, the op in the thread simply assumed that since the realms are separated by space-time dimensional they all must be low 2-C space times, which is not true, in Ultima's thread it was concluded that the walls are the fabric of space time, and that affecting it would be low 2-C at worst, but it was proposed there that the wall itself is a 2-C construct separating the dimensions of the macrocosm, hence why buuhan destroying it is a 2-C feat for the toei continuity, so in summary, it is nothing more than a barrier separating the dimensions spatio temporaly, aka making all the realms separated space times, however as per our low 2-C standards:
"Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale."

td;dr: unless the realms are of universal in size, they merely being spatio temporaly separated is not enough for they to be low 2-C

no problems with it being a space time, the problem is that there is no proof of its size for it to be a low 2-C structure, as per our standards a space time is only valid as a low 2-C structure if it is the size of a universe, we use our observable universe as the metric to determine if it is universal in size, the only justification given there for it to be low 2-C in size is:
"It is also mentioned that they break dimensional barriers when entering that super dimension, as everyone knows in the novel details that the Universe could not support such power, so we can assume that dimension is at least low size 2-C or 2-C to withstand so much energy from both."
which is not a proof of its size at all, we don't give size based on what structures handle in power, this is just a durability feat for it, no other proof for its size being universal is the thread, only more proof that it is another space time, a 4D structure, and that it is another dimension
without proof of the size of it being universal

some other proofs that the thread gives for it to be a low 2-C structure is this and this using the word "extra and super dimensional", which in the first one is merely used as a cool word to describe the battle itself and not the place where it is tanking place(heck the statement is made before they enter the dimension in the first place) "Hyperdimensional (or superdimensional) Ultimate Battle!!", and the second is doing basically the same, the image used in the poster is of goku and vegeta blue attacking broly even, it is not talking about the dimension of swirling lights also

plus terms like "extra dimensional" and "superdimensional" means very little without further elaboration anyway, the only thing legit talking about the dimension is the interview, which talks about how it is a place above 3D, which is true since it is a space time, but again, with no proof that it is universal in size it cannot be low 2-C as per our standards

edit: apparently one other reason for it to be low 2-C is because broly and gogeta broke a dimensional wall to get there and then continue to break more from inside of it to get out, well the problem with this is that the dimensional walls are just fabric of space time with no size, so having inside of there wouldn't mean that it is a low 2-C strucuture by default, plus it is never said that they are insider of there, only that gogeta and broly broke them as they fought there, which happened even when they were in the living universe, as they are still withing the macrocosm they will affect the dimensional barriers that make that dimension separated from the others if they hit hard enough, so this is not really a proof of it being low 2-C either

edit 2: elaboraring more, the so called "dimensional barriers" are nothing more than the very fabric of space time as accepted here, so having them inside only means that the DOSL is indeed a space time, but every realm has it as every realm is a space time as concluded in the ultima thread, so in conclusion, all that this proves is that indeed the dimension is a space time, but still, without a universal size we can't say that it is a low 2-C space time

one of the most simple of them all, there is absolutely no proof of its size in the thread, nothing about its size whatsoever, so simple enough, not low 2-C without proof that it is universal in size

edit: some people in the thread are trying to argue that hell is indeed universal in size for being bigger than heaven based on the macrocosm map, however that map was accepted as not being on scale in sizes here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-universe-crt.150545/
with it having several contradictions on the size and scale department with the series

edit2: another argument brought up is that since hell is bellow the cloud layer we can use that do determine its size, however that is also impossible since hell is another space time, so by our standards it cannot be physically bellow the cloud layer or else it would be physically connected with the rest of the afterlife, which is not a possible thing for separated space times as per our standards from the universe page:

"It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes."

, as such, we can't use that to determine its size while still being another space time, as such it would be completely separated and not physically bellow the clouds, so we can't use it to determine a size for hell

the demon realm also has shown no proof of being universal in size, in fact, the thread shows evidence of it not even being an alternate dimension, but a "world" inside the living universe:
"A world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "Hell;" it is a world confirmed to be in the Living World. However, magic holds greater influence than science. Similar to the obverse universe being split into east, west, south, and north areas, the Demon Realm is also split into multiple space areas. And the absolute king who commands all of this is Daabra."
with it also being comfirmed to not have been called a universe by shin but merely calling a "realm/world":
"according to hermes It’s 魔界, demon world/realm. I think Viz uses “plane” to emphasize that it’s a sort of alternative dimension rather than a planet. They used it for Yu Yu Hakusho too" while Herms thinks that it is saying that to emphasize that it is an alternate dimension, the other statements from guides disagree since they say that it is in the living world/living universe, also, even if it is an alternate dimension, we have a stated size for it from Akira himself:
"The Demon Realm is located in the universe, but its scale is very small, the size of a hideout for mages. The mages live in the Demon Realm like evil goblins." so yeah, it is very small in size and not universal as a low 2-C space time has to be by our standards, the only thing in there that could serve as proof that it is universal in size is this saying that it "takes the appearence of the reverse of that("that" referring to the universe) but since we have so many other statements saying that it is inside the living universe, it wouldn't make sense to be the same of it if it is inside it, also that part is completely unsourcered, there is no source saying where that comes from, the lower part of the text does, but not the upper text, so it isn't exactly trustful

also it is said that its scale is "very small" when compared to the universe, so even without the hideout part it still stated to be minuscule in comparison to the universe in size

but most importantly, it is not even saying that it is the complete opposite of the universe as a lower half, it is saying that its appearance is that of the of the reverse of the living universe and the afterlife, aka it looks the opposite of what the other 2 look like, it is talking about its aesthetic and nothing more, so overall, there is complete 0 proof that it is universal in size

this one will likely change when the thread upgrading the size of the afterlife gets accepted, but as of now there is also no proof that it is universal in size, it is simply 1/10 of the entire macrocosm in size, with the only 2 universal in size structures makes this realm only 3-B in size instead of the required Universal size, with the op of the thread also providing no proof for it to be universal in size

DDM pointed out good points for the kaioshin realm being likely the size of a universe, so now anyone reading this can ignore this part



tl;dr: none of the realms suggested in the thread have any proof of being big enough to be low 2-C even tho they are space times, so we should downgrade dbs/db toei and gt back to the number of universal space times they had before

Agree completely:
@Theglassman12 , @Elizhaa (also suggests on removing hell as a space time at all, with it just being part of the afterlife), @Maverick_Zero_X ,@Hasty12345, @AKUTO123, @Shiraito983, @RaveeCPN, @Akagami_Shanks1, @Hiryu-Z, @Phsccarvalho, @BestMGQScalerEver, @TheGodOfICE777, @Reiner, @Boyinluv2002, @Stefano4444

Agree on the removal of demon realm: @LordGriffin1000, @LuffyRuffy46307, @CloverDragon03, @TiltedFN, @AwkguyDB, @TheGreatBanana, @Vietthai96

Agree on removing hell: @Matrixxxx, @AguilaR202

Disagree:

Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus (Agrees on 3 universal space times minimum, but also said that hell is in the same space as the afterlife, so waiting for further response)
 
Last edited:
Im pretty sure we’re still using 3 realms for macrocosm.

hell isn’t even on a different plane than the rest of the afterlife, the dimension of swirling lights quite literally is reached by exceeding the limits of the universe and as such isn’t part of the standard macrocosm, and the demon realm was never a thing taken into consideration.

kaishin realm is also being upgraded along with the afterlife making it universal sized despite the 1/10th size of the macrocosm existing, which at any rate isn’t an immediate debunk as we already know without calcs that afterlife has an universe sized structure inside of it.
 
Im pretty sure we’re still using 3 realms for macrocosm.

hell isn’t even on a different plane than the rest of the afterlife, the dimension of swirling lights quite literally is reached by exceeding the limits of the universe and as such isn’t part of the standard macrocosm, and the demon realm was never a thing taken into consideration.
look at the profiles for goku and the likes, we are using 6

kaishin realm is also being upgraded along with the afterlife making it universal sized despite the 1/10th size of the macrocosm existing, which at any rate isn’t an immediate debunk as we already know without calcs that afterlife has an universe sized structure inside of it.
yes i know that there is a thread calcing the size of the afterlife that would make the kaioshin realm universal in size, however that is not accepted yet, so please avoid mentioning it here as it is not the point of the thread
 
well a lot of the justifications rely on infinite DB universe which has been recently debunked, so a revision is in order.

SSG Goku definitely is only 3 spacetimes, the dimension of swirlinh lights is literally only reached by exceeding the limits of the universe positioning outside the macrocosm at any rate.

And attributing it to BoG Goku creates circular scaling, the condition for reaching that specific spacetime is two characters who vastly exceed Gokus initial level to be clashing.
 
Im pretty sure we’re still using 3 realms for macrocosm.

hell isn’t even on a different plane than the rest of the afterlife, the dimension of swirling lights quite literally is reached by exceeding the limits of the universe and as such isn’t part of the standard macrocosm, and the demon realm was never a thing taken into consideration.

kaishin realm is also being upgraded along with the afterlife making it universal sized despite the 1/10th size of the macrocosm existing, which at any rate isn’t an immediate debunk as we already know without calcs that afterlife has an universe sized structure inside of it.
Swirling Lights
After Life
Living Realm

These are 100% officially backed and supported to be Low 2-C realms. If the Kaioshin Realm does get upgraded then that should be 4 and I saw an argument made for the demon realm before.

Goku's 6 probably comes from GoD scaling
 
Swirling Lights
After Life
Living Realm

These are 100% officially backed and supported to be Low 2-C realms. If the Kaioshin Realm does get upgraded then that should be 4 and I saw an argument made for the demon realm before.

Goku's 6 probably comes from GoD scaling
no, it comes from the macrocosm itself, GoDs of destruction are 12 universes as of now
 
Swirling lights even if it is a Low 2-C realm we can’t scale it to BoG Goku, because it needed Gogeta and Broly clashing to get there, two characters whom we rate to be 6 spacetime busters off GoDs.

If anything this should bump Gogeta and Broly to 7 spacetimes, but retroactively making it part of the macrocosm so that BoG Goku gets a bump even though the standard structure only includes what’s shown on the maps is wrong.
 
Can someone summarize the argument for 6 Universal spacetime vs not. I would like to give my coins here
 
Swirling lights even if it is a Low 2-C realm we can’t scale it to BoG Goku, because it needed Gogeta and Broly clashing to get there, two characters whom we rate to be 6 spacetime busters off GoDs.

If anything this should bump Gogeta and Broly to 7 spacetimes, but retroactively making it part of the macrocosm so that BoG Goku gets a bump even though the standard structure only includes what’s shown on the maps is wrong.
all that gogeta and broly did was break the thing, i really don't see how they would go to one more space time because of this
 
Swirling Lights
After Life
Living Realm

These are 100% officially backed and supported to be Low 2-C realms. If the Kaioshin Realm does get upgraded then that should be 4 and I saw an argument made for the demon realm before.

Goku's 6 probably comes from GoD scaling
Swirling lights doesn’t scale to BoG Goku though, it’s not even part of the map depicting dimensions of the macrocosm and we know shit not present in it gets excluded from universe spanning events ie: RoSAT and Suguroku space.
 
The only arguments that substantiated universal size for the other dimensions was infinite sized DB universe which is no longer a thing.

Hell is not a different spacetime, Goku and Pikkon fly there without dimensional travel from the upper portion of the afterlife, the visual representation of it shows all afterlife structures to be spatially connected.

Demon realm isn’t a thing shown in any canon DB installment , we can’t even claim it to be a different spacetime much less corroborate it’s size ergo it can’t be assumed to be affected just with baseline macrocosm busts.

Swirling lights is not part of the standard U7 structure, it requires the power of two characters who scale above busting two macrocosm to reach it, it is also not depicted in any of the maps making it likely one of the dimension that exist separate from the macrocosm such as the RoSAT and Suguroku space.
 
Last edited:
Can someone summarize the argument for 6 Universal spacetime vs not. I would like to give my coins here
Basically we accepted that
Swirling Lights
After Life
Hell
Living Realm
Demon Realm
and Kaioshin Realm
were all Low 2-C realms that encompassed the DB Macrocosm. Omega is arguing that only the Living Realm and After Life are the only ones that are confirmed to be Low 2-C which I disagree with the exclusion of Swirling Lights because of the evidence Luffy brought up in his thread and the Kaioshin Realm/After Life are under a revision that will pretty much make that part of the thread minute. Demon Realm I'm neutral on because I can see it clearly being shown to be in its own dimension but whether that Dimension is Universe Sized is up for grabs.
 
The statements are referring to the dimension of swirling lights not just the battle also Kaioshin Realm one is useless for obvious reasons but ig we can reimplement that once it gets accepted also DOSSL should apply to the macrocosm

Agree with the removal of the other stuff should’ve not counted them in the first place tbh
even if they do, super dimensional and similar statements are not enough for low 2-C, all that does is further proof that it is 4D
 
Living Universe is still considerably multitudes above baseline 3-A, taking that into consideration, Kaioshin Realm could still meet that 3-A size marking. Hell is actually larger than Heaven and it's like bigger than the Living Universe by a large margin; it is what takes up most of Otherworld's space. But I don't know full context on other details but as others said, 3 timelines sounds like a given minimum.
 
Living Universe is still considerably multitudes above baseline 3-A
we don't accepted that anymore, it is just 3-A

, taking that into consideration, Kaioshin Realm could still meet that 3-A size marking.
there is a thread for that happening, it is taking weeks upon months to be completed tho

Hell is actually larger than Heaven and it's like bigger than the Living Universe by a large margin; it is what takes up most of Otherworld's space. But I don't know full context on other details but as others said, 3 timelines sounds like a given minimum.
that was from a tableboard american rpg, it is not canon for obvious reasons and it was removed a while back
 
Living Universe is still considerably multitudes above baseline 3-A, taking that into consideration, Kaioshin Realm could still meet that 3-A size marking. Hell is actually larger than Heaven and it's like bigger than the Living Universe by a large margin; it is what takes up most of Otherworld's space. But I don't know full context on other details but as others said, 3 timelines sounds like a given minimum.
Based on this we would have 5 solid Universal Space Times
 
Living universe is just baseline 3-A, the reason it scaled higher is because our calcs originally assumed the whole current 2-C structure of the Afterlife+Living World+ Kaio Realm were part of a single space-time

The afterlife as whole contains heaven, which is as large as the living universe, making it larger by many times

Kaio realm is the 1/10th the size of the macrocosm, making it debatible wether or not it should be classed as low 2-C but the fact the afterlife is several times larger than the universe makes it so that’s the standard assumption
 
Last edited:
The finite DB Universe is way over baseline regardless of the downgrade
the only thing that made it bigger than a baseline 3-A universe was the macrocosm map, but that map was decided to not be usable for scale here, unless you have a thread that accepted it as bigger than baseline 3-A
 
Based on this we would have 5 solid Universal Space Times
Hell is not a different space time though, it is part of the afterlife Pikkon and Goku flew there without dimensional travel.

swirling lights is not part of the macrocosm, literally 0 reason for it to be when characters who can bust two macrocosms clashing are the requirement to reach it and it quite literally is stated to be reached after the limits of the universe (macrocosm) have been exceeded.
 
Hell is not a different space time though, it is part of the afterlife Pikkon and Goku flew there without dimensional travel.

swirling lights is not part of the macrocosm, literally 0 reason for it to be when characters who can bust two macrocosms clashing are the requirement to reach it and it quite literally is stated to be reached after the limits of the universe (macrocosm) have been exceeded.
Breaking the space time of the dimensional barriers transported them to the DOSSL so it would still make sense for it to be in the macrocosm and Universe can refer to the living world
 
can you guys not derail the thread with the discussion of wether or not the dimension is in the macrocosm? this is not the point of the op
 
Breaking the space time of the dimensional barriers transported them to the DOSSL so it would still make sense for it to be in the macrocosm and Universe can refer to the living world

And why would we assume their power breaks the barriers of the singular U7 macrocosm when the characters are confirmed to scale scaling above 2 macrocosms?

For all we know this is a structure outside of the boundaries of either U6 or U7.

all in all, doesn’t adress the underlying problem that we’re creating a recursive scaling chain.
Gogeta + Broly fighting inside of it took more clashes to break it than Goku in BoG would need?
Please.
 
And why would we assume their power breaks the barriers of the singular U7 macrocosm when the characters are confirmed to scale scaling above 2 macrocosms?

For all we know this is a structure outside of the boundaries of either U6 or U7.
can you guys not derail the thread with the discussion of wether or not the dimension is in the macrocosm? this is not the point of the op
 
It actually has nothing to do with the Universe being infinite, but rather that there are dimensional barriers separating those dimensions from the living Universe, which are considered low 2-C size according to @Ultima_Reality, @omegabronic misunderstood the point of the other thread, but it did make this topic unnecessary for the verse, as I gave you a detailed explanation as to why we consider these realms to be low 2-C in size and among other things, the dimension of the swirling lights only accessible through spacetime distortion. and within them the multiple dimensional barriers that were broken by Gogeta and Brolly, and also in the novel itself it explains in detail that the Universe did not support such energy and that dimension would have to be bigger than the Universe, being the size low 2-C this was accepted there, the other realms are divided between areas, where it is impossible to enter by normal means (only via dimensional travel and teleportation) hell is separated from every other world by dimensional barriers (which can be seen as clouds) but it is accessible to enter through portals, as shown in the anime / manga ) so we consider it to be at least low 2-C in size, the world of demons the dimension is within the Universe, but it is the Universe on the opposite side, in the same translation as the Omega brought data as a dimension and Hermes explains that the word is not "world" that fits, but rather as an alternative dimension, Heaven is only accessible by plane and has its size confirmed in databook and anime, but I used it the databook, it is also separated from the other world. The realm of the 1/10 Kaioshins of the living Universe and the other world (which is also outside the Universe and separated by a dimensional barrier, preventing access by third parties without special methods)

What else needs to be explained here?

 
It actually has nothing to do with the Universe being infinite, but rather that there are dimensional barriers separating those dimensions from the living Universe, which are considered low 2-C size according to @Ultima_Reality, @omegabronic misunderstood the point of the other thread, but it did make this topic unnecessary for the verse, as I gave you a detailed explanation as to why we consider these realms to be low 2-C in size and among other things, the dimension of the swirling lights only accessible through spacetime distortion. and within them the multiple dimensional barriers that were broken by Gogeta and Brolly, and also in the novel itself it explains in detail that the Universe did not support such energy and that dimension would have to be bigger than the Universe, being the size low 2-C this was accepted there, the other realms are divided between areas, where it is impossible to enter by normal means (only via dimensional travel and teleportation) hell is separated from every other world by dimensional barriers (which can be seen as clouds) but it is accessible to enter through portals, as shown in the anime / manga ) so we consider it to be at least low 2-C in size, the world of demons the dimension is within the Universe, but it is the Universe on the opposite side, in the same translation as the Omega brought data as a dimension and Hermes explains that the word is not "world" that fits, but rather as an alternative dimension, Heaven is only accessible by plane and has its size confirmed in databook and anime, but I used it the databook, it is also separated from the other world. The realm of the 1/10 Kaioshins of the living Universe and the other world (which is also outside the Universe and separated by a dimensional barrier, preventing access by third parties without special methods)

What else needs to be explained here?


Living Universe is still considerably multitudes above baseline 3-A, taking that into consideration, Kaioshin Realm could still meet that 3-A size marking. Hell is actually larger than Heaven and it's like bigger than the Living Universe by a large margin; it is what takes up most of Otherworld's space. But I don't know full context on other details but as others said, 3 timelines sounds like a given minimum.
Basically this bro
 
It actually has nothing to do with the Universe being infinite, but rather that there are dimensional barriers separating those dimensions from the living Universe, which are considered low 2-C size according to @Ultima_Reality
even if the dimensional barriers were low 2-C in size(which they are not, @Ultima_Reality never even suggested them to be that big, only that they are 2-C in durability and that are space time) that still doesn't make any of the realms low 2-C without them being universal in size

@omegabronic misunderstood the point of the other thread, but it did make this topic unnecessary for the verse, as I gave you a detailed explanation as to why we consider these realms to be low 2-C in size and among other things
you didn't explained anything to me acctually, you shut me down when i questioned at the end and just made the thread get closed

, the dimension of the swirling lights only accessible through spacetime distortion.
which means that it is a space time yes, that much i agreed with and is not being removed

and within them the multiple dimensional barriers that were broken by Gogeta and Brolly
within the DOSL? i am sorry but your thread really didn't suggest that

, and also in the novel itself it explains in detail that the Universe did not support such energy and that dimension would have to be bigger than the Universe, being the size low 2-C
no? the characters fighting scale to 2 macrocosms, this is at best a durability feat for the dimension, and it would be 2-C scaling from gogeta and broly, why would it make it universal in size? low 2-C is not a size btw

this was accepted there
hence this new thread

, the other realms are divided between areas, where it is impossible to enter by normal means (only via dimensional travel and teleportation)
again, why does this matters for them not being show to be universal in size?

hell is separated from every other world by dimensional barriers (which can be seen as clouds) but it is accessible to enter through portals, as shown in the anime / manga ) so we consider it to be at least low 2-C in size
non sequitur, separated by space time =/= being universal in size

, the world of demons the dimension is within the Universe, but it is the Universe on the opposite side
so? it is still inside the living universe

, in the same translation as the Omega brought data as a dimension and Hermes explains that the word is not "world" that fits, but rather as an alternative dimension
this is herms opinion on the matter yes, but he translated it as "realm/world" the translation as "world" is corroborated by akira himself and multiple guides statements, so we should go with that one

, Heaven is only accessible by plane and has its size confirmed in databook and anime, but I used it the databook, it is also separated from the other world.
if it is accesable by plane then it isn't a space time since you can physically go there, plus your thread didn't even suggest this, plus goku physically flew out of heaven, making it not another space time since you can't physically move from one to another

The realm of the 1/10 Kaioshins of the living Universe and the other world (which is also outside the Universe and separated by a dimensional barrier, preventing access by third parties without special methods)
again, why does this matter for the size of it not being universal?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top