Dragon Ball universal space time number downgrade

[CloverDragon03]

Getting real tired of these DB cosmology threads...

I have no stake in this so count me as neutral

 

[CraigTucker]

Getting tired of the downgrade everyday tbh

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Getting real tired of these DB cosmology threads...

I have no stake in this so count me as neutral

I understand you, I'm also getting tired, so I avoid anything like that, it could mark the @Ultima_Reality I think your help would be greatly appreciated here

 

[Omegabronic]

Basically, I already explained in my comment, the dimension of the swirling lights is another space-time ( Brolly and Gogeta distorted all space-time in the Universe to go into such a dimension and broke several dimensional barriers there )

Simply put, it qualifies to be a low 2-C or directly 2-C size by having multiple dimensional barriers within it, plus there are many claims of it being a higher dimension (extradimensional/superdimensional) and being portrayed as a mathematical dimension or something like that by the director
s)

What is the proof that they are inside there instead of just being them affecting them from within there? The barriers are the things that separate the dimensions in the first place, why would a dimension have rhe things that separate it in the first place inside of it?

Medeus quick explanation

As I said earlier, this seemed to be an extended version of Toei Buuhan's newly revised feat, so Low 2-C is indeed a bare minimum this could be interpreted, and think it is solid to consider a 2-C feat.

He is talking about the feat of breaking the barrier to go there and not the structure itself

I also asked some questions about the dimension of the swirling lights, and it was agreed that it has enough reason to be another spacetime of size low 2-C/ 2-C

Right here

A questions and answers thread is not a crt, it cannot be "accepted" since it is obly to have things answered, also in the thread rhe thing discussed is more durability then size anyway

 

[Hasty12345]

I definitely think that the realms are separate spacetimes, I think that point needs to be dropped it’s been discussed to death twice and the realms are different spacetimes for sure.

I think the weird point is the size requirements, each qualifying realm needs to be a universe in size to be low 2-C for the universe to be 2-C.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

What is the proof that they are inside there instead of just being them affecting them from within there? The barriers are the things that separate the dimensions in the first place, why would a dimension have rhe things that separate it in the first place inside of it?


He is talking about the feat of breaking the barrier to go there and not the structure itself


A questions and answers thread is not a crt, it cannot be "accepted" since it is obly to have things answered, also in the thread rhe thing discussed is more durability then size anyway

You can very well read my CRT and draw your own conclusions, although your ideas are all distorted (you have the link of my Op where the whole novel is translated there and talking about it)

I don't want to debate endlessly with you, but just read the link you mentioned in the OP, it explains everything there.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It was something agreed by me, Antvasima, and AKM sama long before you ever joined the forum and while Damage opposed or at least interrogated it, he kind of got outvoted.


Actually, bits in pieces were still valid such as the Living Universe being much smaller than the Other World but what's not usable is stuff like Snake Way being 1/4th the size.

By the way, the realm of the Kaioshins is a dimension described in the Dragon Ball databook.

 

[Omegabronic]

You can very well read my CRT and draw your own conclusions

i did that and now we have this crt, if you are really saying that all the arguments for the DOSL to be low 2-C in size is statements of gogeta and broly breaking dimensional walls to get there then my original instance in the op is not changed, will update the op then

, although your ideas are all distorted (you have the link of my Op where the whole novel is translated there and talking about it)

You know, you could explain since your op is very disorganized and has no summaries explaining what the evidence you wrote there means, now you saying that my ideas are distorted is wtv, but you could explain better to everyone to understand better what your argument is

I don't want to debate endlessly with you, but just read the link you mentioned in the OP, it explains everything there.

Again, i did that and then i made the thread, i am not asking for a discussion, you can just make an explanation and then leave

By the way, the realm of the Kaioshins is a dimension described in the Dragon Ball databook.

Bring a dimension matters here because? This is not what the op is covering, i agree on that they are separated dimensions, this is doing nothing but clog the thread

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I explained it well, so much so that all team members understood accordingly, in fact I made a small summary at the end of the Op, I highly doubt you read anything, but anyway, that's it, I'll wait for the team members.

 

[AguilaR202]

Imo I agree with this thread to downgrades for the following least for:

-Demon realm, it has no specific scenes that showcase space time separation or size beyond universal to qualify for a Low 2-C space time in accepted canon. This is a solid removal I can get behind

- tentative agreement for Kai realm only tentative because of it being the 1/10th the size of the macrocosm, which will be affected by any upgrades made to the afterlife’s size.

- tentative agreement for Hell downgrade because of size issues, a spatio temporal separation is present as shown by Luffy

- reinterpetation for DOSL, no longer being scalable to BoG Goku due to massive powergaps involved and recursive scaling

Kaio Realm and Hell stop being an issue as soon as the other thread upgrading afterlife to many times observable universe are accepted.

 

[Omegabronic]

Imo I agree with this thread to downgrades for the following least for:

-Demon realm, it has no specific scenes that showcase space time separation or size beyond universal to qualify for a Low 2-C space time in accepted canon. This is a solid removal I can get behind

- tentative agreement for Kai realm only tentative because of it being the 1/10th the size of the macrocosm, which will be affected by any upgrades made to the afterlife’s size.

- tentative agreement for Hell downgrade because of size issues, a spatio temporal separation is present as shown by Luffy

- reinterpetation for DOSL, no longer being scalable to BoG Goku due to massive powergaps involved and recursive scaling

Kaio Realm and Hell stop being an issue as soon as the other thread upgrading afterlife to many times observable universe are accepted.

Kaioshin realm okay, but why hell?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Kaioshin realm okay, but why hell?

The swirling lights dimension should be dropped from the Op, it has reason enough to be accepted as low 2-C by Medeus, the realm of demons (I don't mind that much) , but you can withdraw, the rest is being discussed in another thread, so it should remain as it is.

 

[AguilaR202]

Kaioshin realm okay, but why hell?

Hell extends as far as the cloud layer stretches through the entire bottom portion of the afterlife. If the afterlife is indeed millions like the other thread suggests of times observable universe size hell is affected as result.

 

[Omegabronic]

Hell extends as far as the cloud layer stretches through the entire bottom portion of the afterlife. If the afterlife is indeed millions like the other thread suggests of times observable universe size hell is affected as result.

Well, no, it is another space time, it doesn't physically "stretch" anywhere, it is completely separate from the afterlife as a separated space time, even then, we would need to make a calc for it to be universal in size with this logic

The swirling lights dimension should be dropped from the Op, it has reason enough to be accepted as low 2-C by Medeus, the realm of demons (I don't mind that much) , but you can withdraw, the rest is being discussed in another thread, so it should remain as it is.

Medeus tuen agreed with its removal in this thread, so idk what to tell you, plus tou are refusing to further explain to me why it is low 2-C without using the fallacy of autority, so until you do that i will not

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Well, no, it is another space time, it doesn't physically "stretch" anywhere, it is completely separate from the afterlife as a separated space time, even then, we would need to make a calc for it to be universal in size with this logic


Medeus tuen agreed with its removal in this thread, so idk what to tell you, plus tou are refusing to further explain to me why it is low 2-C without using the fallacy of autority, so until you do that i will not

I already explained to you about this, Omega, the dimension of the swirling lights qualifies perfectly over low 2-C, I gave a very detailed and simple explanation for everyone to understand.

 

[TiltedFN]

i guess i can agree on demon realm, but everything else should stay, hell, swirling lights, kaioshin realm

 

[Omegabronic]

I already explained to you about this, Omega, the dimension of the swirling lights qualifies perfectly over low 2-C

And then you refused to answer my points against your explanation, look if it will be like this let us stop and solve this on private to not derail the thread ok?

i guess i can agree on demon realm, but everything else should stay, hell, swirling lights, kaioshin realm

Why those exactly?

 

[AguilaR202]

Well, no, it is another space time, it doesn't physically "stretch" anywhere, it is completely separate from the afterlife as a separated space time, even then, we would need to make a calc for it to be universal in size with this logic


Medeus tuen agreed with its removal in this thread, so idk what to tell you, plus tou are refusing to further explain to me why it is low 2-C without using the fallacy of autority, so until you do that i will not

The cloud layer is shared boundary visible from hells floor, no reason it wouldn’t stretch out as far.

 

[Omegabronic]

The cloud layer is shared boundary visible from hells floor, no reason it wouldn’t stretch out as far.

The cloud layer is a layer of clouds that have a portal to hell under them, they streching means nothing to hell's size since it is another space time completely and as such, isn't down the clouds, but completely separated, this is how space times are

 

[AguilaR202]

The cloud layer is a layer of clouds that have a portal to hell under them, they streching means nothing to hell's size since it is another space time completely and as such, isn't down the clouds, but completely separated, this is how space times are

Potentially, but we also have janemba replacing the cloud layer in the afterlife with his jelly beans making hell readily visible and accesible from a downwards PoV

You can see it upon Gogetas first appearance in FR, the jellybeans which replace the cloud layer and a smaller circle by comparison underneath them, which shows that hell does indeed extend for a large portion of what would normally be the cloud boundary, those jellybeans even reached grand Kai’s palace so you know they can extend over universal distances too.

 

[Omegabronic]

Potentially, but we also have janemba replacing the cloud layer in the afterlife with his jelly beans making hell readily visible and accesible from a downwards PoV

If that is true then hell can't be a space time if it is physically connected to the rest of the afterlife

You can see it upon Gogetas first appearance in FR, the jellybeans which replace the cloud layer and a smaller circle by comparison underneath them, which shows that hell does indeed extend for a large portion of what would normally be the cloud boundary, those jellybeans even reached grand Kai’s palace so you know they can extend over universal distances too.

Look, if hell is dorectly bellow the cloud layer physically, then it wouldn't be a space time since it would share space with the rest of the afterlife

 

[AguilaR202]

If that is true then hell can't be a space time if it is physically connected to the rest of the afterlife


Look, if hell is dorectly bellow the cloud layer physically, then it wouldn't be a space time since it would share space with the rest of the afterlife

Janemba upset the natural order of the afterlife making people from hell escape to earth unassisted which we both know are spatio temporally separate, so it being connected in this one instance doesn’t immediately debunk it being separate under normal conditions ie: when the cloud layer is still up.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If that is true then hell can't be a space time if it is physically connected to the rest of the afterlife


Look, if hell is dorectly bellow the cloud layer physically, then it wouldn't be a space time since it would share space with the rest of the afterlife

Isn't this just the result of Janemba ******* everything up?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Isn't this just the result of Janemba ******* everything up?

Yes, Janemba arrested Emma and distorted all the laws of that place, all afterlife was connected to the world of the living during Emma's imprisonment

 

[TiltedFN]

yeah janemba just reality warped the shit out of the entire afterife, not proof they are spatialtemporally connected

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Well, per GT, the bottom of Hell (Goku recognizes it as the same general area he fell into in the Saiyan Saga) is so far removed from the Check In Station that Goku can't even IT to it from there. That could indicate that the cloud layer is more likely some sort of portal.

 

[Omegabronic]

Isn't this just the result of Janemba ******* everything up?

I dunno, if it is then it is moot since it is just janemba screwing with reality

 

[Omegabronic]

Janemba upset the natural order of the afterlife making people from hell escape to earth unassisted which we both know are spatio temporally separate, so it being connected in this one instance doesn’t immediately debunk it being separate under normal conditions ie: when the cloud layer is still up.

Yeah, but also can't be used to scale hell to a size since it is janemba fusing the 2 together, also, the cloud layer is not relevant, the portal in it is however, since hell isn't located bellow it physically, the logic for that to be used for its size still couldn't be used

 

[Hasty12345]

Well, per GT, the bottom of Hell (Goku recognizes it as the same general area he fell into in the Saiyan Saga) is so far removed from the Check In Station that Goku can't even IT to it from there. That could indicate that the cloud layer is more likely some sort of portal.

Doesn’t Goku have limitations on his teleportation within the mortal universe but can teleport to king Kai’s?

 

[Reiner04]

Agree with DDM.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Doesn’t Goku have limitations on his teleportation within the mortal universe but can teleport to king Kai’s?

Sure. My idea was that the Check In Station probably can't be right above the bottom side of clouds physically (as would be the case if it were just a physical layer of clouds) because of a discrepancy like that (pretty sure it and the bottom of Hell wouldn't even end up a mile apart physically based on Goku freefalling).

 

[Omegabronic]

Again i reinterate, if hell is another space time it cannot be phisically anywhere bellow the cloud layer, being would make it physicaly conected with the afterlife and as such sharing the same space with it

 

[CraigTucker]

Again i reinterate, if hell is another space time it cannot be phisically anywhere bellow the cloud layer, being would make it physicaly conected with the afterlife and as such sharing the same space with it

The flaw in your argument lies in assuming that the connection between hell and the afterlife as well as their shared space, negates the idea of hell being a separate spacetime.

In the context lets say, of metaphysical or spiritual, the notion of spacetime can extend beyond the conventional understanding used in physics. It can refer to different dimensions or planes that operate under distinct laws or principles, while still maintaining some form of connection or interaction.

Lets say for example, A space connected to a another space: it is right for two spaces to have a physical connection while still existing as distinct spacetimes. The notion of separate spacetimes implies that each has its own set of laws, rules, and properties that govern the behavior of matter, energy, and even time within that particular spacetime. We know hell has their sets of laws, rules and properties completely different than the rest of realms. So again it doesn't matter if hell is physically connected with the afterlife it doesn't disapprove it isn't a seperate spacetime. That's false dilemma.

 

[Omegabronic]

The flaw in your argument lies in assuming that the connection between hell and the afterlife as well as their shared space, negates the idea of hell being a separate spacetime.

"It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes"

By out standards it does

In the context lets say, of metaphysical or spiritual, the notion of spacetime can extend beyond the conventional understanding used in physics. It can refer to different dimensions or planes that operate under distinct laws or principles, while still maintaining some form of connection or interaction.

So you are saying that hell is acctually not a literal separated space time but figuritivaly? Because again, for our tiering purposes it needs to be a separated space time by physics logic instead of, whatever you just described

Lets say for example, A space connected to a another space: it is right for two spaces to have a physical connection while still existing as distinct spacetimes.

not for our tiering purposes if they are 3D physically conected no

The notion of separate spacetimes implies that each has its own set of laws, rules, and properties that govern the behavior of matter, energy, and even time within that particular spacetime.

and if they share the same physical space they will not be that different, plus having different properties of time doesn't make it a different space time, irl things like that happens with our normal universe

We know hell has their sets of laws, rules and properties completely different than the rest of realms.

do we tho? The earlier thread that made it low 2-C didn't provided evidence for such

So again it doesn't matter if hell is physically connected with the afterlife it doesn't disapprove it isn't a seperate spacetime. That's false dilemma.

Yes it does, by our tiering purposes that will be just a large universe instead of 2 separated ones

 

[CraigTucker]

"It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes"

By out standards it does

This was already address by @LuffyRuffy46307 "Goku and Pikkon entered through the path of the serpent that opens a kind of portal to hell, but from inside hell it is impossible to get out."

So you are saying that hell is acctually not a literal separated space time but figuritivaly? Because again, for our tiering purposes it needs to be a separated space time by physics logic instead of, whatever you just described

I was giving examples of different theories of different spacetime but I will explain more in depth: When discussing different spacetimes, it generally refers to regions or domains within the overall fabric of spacetime that have distinct properties or characteristics. These regions can have different rules, physical laws, or dimensions that govern them.

not for our tiering purposes if they are 3D physically conected no

Problem with this wiki itself is logic

and if they share the same physical space they will not be that different, plus having different properties of time doesn't make it a different space time, irl things like that happens with our normal universe

Your going over on a tanget saying "If they share the same space it isn't different" It doesn't necessarily mean they are not different spacetimes. In physics, a spacetime refers to the combination of three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Different regions within a spacetime can have distinct properties and behaviors, even if they share the same physical space. So, the fact that two spaces share physical proximity does not automatically negate their distinction as separate spacetimes.

When considering different spacetimes, the properties of time can vary. These variations can manifest as differences in the flow, direction, or nature of time. While your right, we observe different phenomena related to time in our universe, it does not diminish the possibility of distinct spacetimes having unique properties of time. The key point is that these variations contribute to the differentiation of spacetimes, as they affect the fundamental nature of the space-time fabric.

do we tho? The earlier thread that made it low 2-C didn't provided evidence for such

Yea I'll prob make a thread explaining the different properties of hell one day

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This was already address by @LuffyRuffy46307 "Goku and Pikkon entered through the path of the serpent that opens a kind of portal to hell, but from inside hell it is impossible to get out."





I was giving examples of different theories of different spacetime but I will explain more in depth: When discussing different spacetimes, it generally refers to regions or domains within the overall fabric of spacetime that have distinct properties or characteristics. These regions can have different rules, physical laws, or dimensions that govern them.



Problem with this wiki itself is logic



Your going over on a tanget saying "If they share the same space it isn't different" It doesn't necessarily mean they are not different spacetimes. In physics, a spacetime refers to the combination of three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Different regions within a spacetime can have distinct properties and behaviors, even if they share the same physical space. So, the fact that two spaces share physical proximity does not automatically negate their distinction as separate spacetimes.

When considering different spacetimes, the properties of time can vary. These variations can manifest as differences in the flow, direction, or nature of time. While your right, we observe different phenomena related to time in our universe, it does not diminish the possibility of distinct spacetimes having unique properties of time. The key point is that these variations contribute to the differentiation of spacetimes, as they affect the fundamental nature of the space-time fabric.


Yea I'll prob make a thread explaining the different properties of hell one day

I liked to see

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Every structure in hell is separated from the other world by means of clouds that are a type of barriers, in GT these clouds prevent Goku from going back up (he fell into the deepest part of hell can no longer leave )

The same case can be said when Android 17 forces an opening in space-time so that the two can merge, Goku tries to jump into the gate and the clouds close quickly (preventing Goku to cross)

 

[CraigTucker]

Every structure in hell is separated from the other world by means of clouds that are a type of barriers, in GT these clouds prevent Goku from going back up (he fell into the deepest part of hell can no longer leave )

The same case can be said when Android 17 forces an opening in space-time so that the two can merge, Goku tries to jump into the gate and the clouds close quickly (preventing Goku to cross)

I mean it makes sense since the otherworld is a spirtuality in sense

 

[Omegabronic]

This was already address by @LuffyRuffy46307 "Goku and Pikkon entered through the path of the serpent that opens a kind of portal to hell, but from inside hell it is impossible to get out."

Yes i know, i agreed with this, so since hell is another space time, it means that it cannot be physically bellow the cloud layer and as such, we can't use it to determine its size

I was giving examples of different theories of different spacetime but I will explain more in depth: When discussing different spacetimes, it generally refers to regions or domains within the overall fabric of spacetime that have distinct properties or characteristics. These regions can have different rules, physical laws, or dimensions that govern them.

Yeah, but for this wiki's tiering purposes they can't be physically connected or have a 3D distance between them at all if they are space times, honestly the janemba movie was just him messing with the law and reality, it really serves no proof that they are not separated space time, but it also doesn't prove anything related to size tho

Problem with this wiki itself is logic

Your going over on a tanget saying "If they share the same space it isn't different" It doesn't necessarily mean they are not different spacetimes. In physics, a spacetime refers to the combination of three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Different regions within a spacetime can have distinct properties and behaviors, even if they share the same physical space. So, the fact that two spaces share physical proximity does not automatically negate their distinction as separate spacetimes.

i am talking about a "space time" for our tiering purposes as written in our universe explanation page, such regions within a space time having different properties or behaviours but still being physically connected is not considered another space time in the wiki, but simply a part of another space time

When considering different spacetimes, the properties of time can vary. These variations can manifest as differences in the flow, direction, or nature of time. While your right, we observe different phenomena related to time in our universe, it does not diminish the possibility of distinct spacetimes having unique properties of time. The key point is that these variations contribute to the differentiation of spacetimes, as they affect the fundamental nature of the space-time fabric.

again, by our tiering purposes they would not qualify as different space times if they are physically connected, i am juat following the wiki standards here

Yea I'll prob make a thread explaining the different properties of hell one day

Will gladly wait

 

[PrinceofPein]

I was asked to comment here and all I will say is, if two spaces are physically connected or travel without some sort of portal is possible they are not separate