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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 71

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Oh right looking back at it the Spirit Bomb is kinda inconsistent. The U7 Spirit Bomb was much more powerful than Pre-UIS SSBKKx20 Goku even though the combined power of Team U7 (excluding Goku) shouldn't even be anywhere close to Pre-UIS SSBKKx20 Goku.
 
@Seed Actually anybody who fights Pre-UIS SSB Goku or Vegeta would be at least SSBKKx5 lvl not SSBKKx10 lvl. Since Vegeta contributed half the power of the Final Kamehameha.
 
Peter1129 said:
Oh right looking back at it the Spirit Bomb is kinda inconsistent. The U7 Spirit Bomb was much more powerful than Pre-UIS SSBKKx20 Goku even though the combined power of Team U7 (excluding Goku) shouldn't even be anywhere close to Pre-UIS SSBKKx20 Goku.
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Exponential increase in power when someone gives their energy to others. It's always worked like this in DB. Obviously, the other word for it would be 'plot'.
 
@ZERO7772 @LightinAnt You guys are misinterpreting me again. I said if Jiren fights Broly at an early stage (when he didn't unlocked Super Saiyan Maximum) he'd one-shot. Also the tournament rules said no killing hence Jiren was holding back a lot the entire time. Even Toppo was holding back in his GoD mode else U11 should've won
 
I don't think Broly is Jiren level, Jiren was said to be stronger than Hakaishins multiple times and MUI was completely dominating him like Gogeta did to Broly until Jiren broke his limits and reached near MUI level and we don't know how SSB Gogeta compares to MUI. So i'd say Jiren is still superior to Broly
 
After digging deeper into the fusion debate, I found that many people actually believe that Gogeta was as stronger as Goutenks! Like really!!? Ó▓á_Ó▓á
 
JackJoyce said:
@ZERO7772 @LightinAnt You guys are misinterpreting me again. I said if Jiren fights Broly at an early stage (when he didn't unlocked Super Saiyan Maximum) he'd one-shot. Also the tournament rules said no killing hence Jiren was holding back a lot the entire time. Even Toppo was holding back in his GoD mode else U11 should've won
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ToP rules said no killing but it didn't say "don't use 1% of your power until the plot demanded it!" Jiren could have soloed the tournament by himself but he decided not to because of "plot"

Jiren literally lost because he didn't finish Goku when he could.
 
@SSr4vegito

We can make an educated powerscaling argument, a post ToP fusion would be superior to UI from the Tournament, this is supported by other fusion boost and Vados's statement
 
Kale and Caulifla both struggled against SS2 Goku, Kefla overpowered SSG Goku in base and pushed him to Omen in SS2. Vados said on fusion that it combines their fusees max power and multiplies it by tens of times as in 20x-90x, meaning Gogeta is at bare minimum 2x stronger than SSBKKx20 and SSBE just in base.
 
ZERO7772 said:
ToP rules said no killing but it didn't say "don't use 1% of your power until the plot demanded it!" Jiren could have soloed the tournament by himself but he decided not to because of "plot"

Jiren literally lost because he didn't finish Goku when he could.
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Dude please. Jiren is just a hero for fu
 
So, a few things to mention so I can get more clarification.

I thought the consensus was that Kefla's SS2 was a mutation, and that UIO was an unquantifiably massive boost from SSB.


Would a technique even apply to the fusion boost?
 
Kefla's SS2 is just Kale's berserk form, which isn't that much more poweful than Caulifla as both struggled against SS2 Goku initially. Blue is superior to Kale's form and obviously Super Saiyan, so a fusion of Goku and Vegeta post ToP would be insanely powerful.

UIO is at bare minimum 2x stronger than SSBKKx20, since logically speaking it needs to give a power amp above what Goku can normally do to even be relevant to him

@JackJoyce

Initially, i know they pushed him to SSG, the point was just Kefla was able to toy with SSG casually in base
 
Heads up its just SS2 ontop of Berserk, nothing more. There were statements that one hit of her could oneshot Goku in Omen, so she is pretty powerful
 
So it's a mutation. I want to be clear, what you are telling me is that it is not a normal SS2?


I know about those statements, but a while ago I considered them to be outliers. I was convinced that it was a mutation that was inconceivable higher than SSB.
 
Its just Kale's Berserk form in SS2, but there are no statements that confirm its a mutation. Also no i don't think its above Blue multiplier/power boost wise since again Kale wasn't that far above Caulifla with her controlled Berserk form.

Eh i don't think its an outlier since Vados made it quite clear that the fusion boost is ridiculously powerful
 
The issue is that she was rivaling UIO. If her particular SS2 form doesn't even rival SSB, the idea that she can match a form that boosted Goku from being weaker than Black Saga Vegito, to being superior to Infinite Zamasu doesn't add up.


I mean, "The sum of their parts multiplied by tens of times" doesn't sound as remotely as impressive as the UIO boost.


It makes a lot more sense to consider her form a mutation.
 
UIO is at bare minimum 2x SSBKKx20 which is a safe lowball, at that point it isn't as farfatched for Kefla to rival or be stronger than him.

Also 20x-90x sound pretty impressive to me
 
I mean, the massive lowball really isn't convincing me. It's more of a dubious point if anything.


That doesn't fit with him being superior to Black Saga Vegito.


Just to be clear, I apologize if I'm coming across as rude. That isn't my intention, I simply feel that no general consensus has been made regarding the strength of these forms at all lol.
 
No offense taken. Its made clear that the fusion boost was insane, Gotenks, Super Vegito, Gogeta and Kefla proved that. Only Black arc Vegito was nerfed heavily to what fusion normally is like which can be attributed to inconsistency.

Also imo i don't think its a massive lowball on UIO, i don't think its like 10x-20x more powerful than SSBKKx20
 
Doing all this math is pointless but:

Kefla's SS form was equal to the spirit bomb according to Whiss, we don't really know the difference between Goku's max "KKx20" and the spirit bomb, but let's just say the SB was twice as strong as Goku himself, since Goku was confident it would take out Jiren when he just got washed a few moments ago. That put SS Kefla at SSBKKx40.

Kefla then goes SS2 on the top of it, which from what we know, is x2 that of SS. This should make SS2 Kefla as strong as SSBKKx80 at least.

Goku during his rematch with Jiren is stronger than the first UIO as SSB and 2nd UIO as SSBKKx20, both forms, however, get washed by "serious" Jiren, before Goku activate 3rd UIO which put him on equal footing with "full power" Jiren so it should be at least twice as strong as SSBKKx20.

If Gogeta is really stronger than Goku and Vegeta max output IN BASE, he would force Jiren to go full power just as SS and would stomp even LB Jiren as SSB tbh.

There is no proof that Jiren is WAY WAY stronger than Goku/Vegeta considering he was fairly serious with them in ep 127. Gogeta absolutely annihilate both of them even at SS and he can still go all the way up to SSB "which is miles ahead of SS itself"

Broly should be on Jiren's level either way.
 
I wouldn't say base Gogeta, but yeah, SS Gogeta would solo the ToP by himself given what we know and SSJ Broly was on par with that.

This doesn't matter though because power-ups and fusion are as strong and the plot needs them to be as nothing more.

Base Gogeta is stronger than SSB Vegito "from the black arc" by the anime logic.
 
Such a lack of a general consensus bothers me too much. I can't really agree with that. UIO fluctuating that much is pathetic.

Regardless, the reason I felt that Base Gogeta could solo the ToP is because his base would be the combination of SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta. Users have claimed on the wiki that SSBE should be comparable to UIO because it allowed Vegeta to battle a Jiren who was stronger than his episode 110 self.


While I still feel that UIO is a ridiculous boost from SSB, I don't think the difference between UIO and UI is that massive.
 
Arguments can be made that Beerus is still above Jiren, as Goku used Beerus as a measuring stick for strength as opposed to Jiren who he fought to the end, though i don't want to get into it
 
DBS having pretty bad and inconsistent writing isn't anything new.

Never forget that DBS is a kids show ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»
 
The problem is that the disparity is way too massive.

Originally, I simply ignored that statement. Goku never felt Beerus's full power, and I could have easily said that he exaggerated his power because he is a GoD.


Now, I'm not sure why they even bothered to introduce UI this early. Toriyama can't be asked, so he might as well be phoning every decision in lol.
 
The problem with Dragon Ball is we have to rely on power-scaling to understand power levels rather than feats. Which make things incredibly complicated.

Also I should mention that TOP SSB Vegeta was so incredibly stronger than Pre-UIO Goku that it's not even funny
 
There was the statement or something that said SSBE = SSBKK. So I guess Vegeta became that strong by breaking his limits. SSBE was probably just a bonus transformation he gained.
 
Off topic, but we should really remove the "Vegito is much stronger than Gogeta" note from Gogeta profile by now~
 
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