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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 71

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Daizenshuu is just another guide. The weekly shonen jump stated way back when that Gogeta has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the MAXIMUM (see what I did there?) and would beat Vegito in a fight if it lasted 30 minutes or less: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/new-old-translation-gogeta-vs-vegetto/

There is no retcon, the only thing retconned here is fan interpretation. They were and are equals, since they are both Goku and Vegeta together. Two equally-matched ultimate trump cards!

Now let's put the matter to rest.
 
LightinAnt said:
Broly wins either way since he has Zenkais just by fighting, he will surpass him in the fight if Jiren has the AP advantage
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That's like saying he can also surpass Whis & Grand Priest by adapting. Jiren will technically outclass him hilariously please don't ban me. I like controversial matchups
 
JackJoyce said:
LightinAnt said:
Broly wins either way since he has Zenkais just by fighting, he will surpass him in the fight if Jiren has the AP advantage
Click to expand...
That's like saying he can also surpass Whis & Grand Priest by adapting. Jiren will technically outclass him hilariously
please don't ban me. I like controversial matchups
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The gap between Broly and Jiren is closer than Whis and Grandpriest, don't strawman. Also no there is also the possibilty that Broly is straight up stronger through fighting a post TOP Blue Fusion. Broly would win in a fight with his zenkais, also possibly Reality Warping(i'm not joking) from the summary
 
AKM sama said:
Daizenshuu is just another guide. The weekly shonen jump stated way back when that Gogeta has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the MAXIMUM (see what I did there?) and would beat Vegito in a fight if it lasted 30 minutes or less: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/new-old-translation-gogeta-vs-vegetto/There is no retcon, the only thing retconned here is fan interpretation. They were and are equals, since they are both Goku and Vegeta together. Two equally-matched ultimate trump cards!
Now let's put the matter to rest.
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Meh, Once again, it's an anime only article.

and sorry but a weekly jump article < an official DB guide.

Except they are fused using two different way to fuse, one which is directly called superior in the manga and the guide, while the Jump article say that it's Gogeta who has the better way to fusion.

Now they are equal but let's not act like the manga and the guide haven't all been presenting Potara as superior, making it a retcon and even in the movie, they are only doing the fusion dance because the potara aren't at hand, meaning that Gogeta isn't the prefered fusion.

So yeah, every other info before now said one or the other was stronger, so let's not act like making both equal 20 years later isn't a retcon.
 
"Now they are equal but let's not act like the manga and the guide haven't all been presenting Potara as superior"

The manga never presented Potara as being superior. Elder Kai only said potara is better (not stronger), because it doesn't have the limitations of the dance. They don't have to practice it to perfect it, they don't have to worry about the results when it goes wrong, and they don't have to align their power levels making it much simpler and faster to perform. Plus it was permanent so there was no time limit, until it was retconned. Potara is better, simpler, easier and faster method in all these regards that's why it is the preferred fusion.

Nothing you said justifies it being any kind of a retcon.

Plus, the aforementioned "official" guide is as good as a weekly shonen jump article as they both are not directly from Toriyama, but the people working under Shueisha.

From non-canon sources: One says Vegito is stronger, one says Gogeta is stronger. It's a tie (not that they matter anyway)

From canon source: There was never a power comparison.

Where's the retcon?
 
I dunno about the guides but the manga never said the Potara was stronger, just "better" fusion method.
 
@Dragomer I agree

@LightinAnt All I'm trying to say is Jiren will one-shot him if they fought at an early stage & he wouldn't get time for zenkais. Broly will most certainly become stronger while fighting Goku and Vegeta. Reality warping? What the..
 
JackJoyce said:
@Dragomer I agree

@LightinAnt All I'm trying to say is Jiren will one-shot him if they fought at an early stage & he wouldn't get time for zenkais. Broly will most certainly become stronger while fighting Goku and Vegeta. Reality warping? What the..
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Jiren is a dumbass who let his enemy power up just to look cool until they kick his ass and he holds back for no f*king reason.

Broly is a bad matchup for Jiren actually. Not that Jiren is stronger than Broly in the first place lol. Either way, they around the same level, and with Broly insane growing he will beat up Jiren in no time.
 
JackJoyce said:
@Dragomer I agree
@LightinAnt All I'm trying to say is Jiren will one-shot him if they fought at an early stage & he wouldn't get time for zenkais. Broly will most certainly become stronger while fighting Goku and Vegeta. Reality warping? What the..
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I don't think Jiren is stronger than Broly, a post ToP blue fusion of Goku and Vegeta should be stronger than UI from the TOP. For example Kale and Caulifla struggled against a tired SS2 Goku and Kefla in base dominated SSG Goku and pushed him to Omen in SS2, now imagine that boost but on a fused Goku and Vegeta post TOP

Even if you want to imply "Lol bad scaling" Vados said Fusion is Max power of their fusees combined times tens(20x-90x), so base Gogeta at bare minimum would be 2x stronger than SSBKKx20
 
ZERO7772 said:
I dunno about the guides but the manga never said the Potara was stronger, just "better" fusion method.
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Being better in any way would make Vegeto the superior version, not equal to Gogeta.
 
AKM sama said:
snip
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Yeah, because 'BETTER' mean equal now, so when i saw that Usain Bolt is better than his competition, i'm actualy saying they are equal, that make sens.

the 'aligning power level' isn't mentionned at all in the movie

except litteraly all the direct info stating one as superior, if you are better than something, you're not equal to it.

Except the Daizneshuu has direct endorsement from Toriyama and it's an official DB Guide, not just an article.

The daizenshuu's info is considered canon and no, two canon source say Vegeto is better (the manga and the daizenshuu) and one non canon say Gogeta is better, said non canon source is now contradicted by another WSJ article stating they are equal, so no, it's not a tie, 2 doesn't tie with 1

The manga and the daizenshuu are both canon source and say that Potara is better and Daizenshuu had that it's stronger.

where the retcon ? everywhere, in the manga, in the daizenshuu and in the weekly shonen jump, litteraly no previous info is in line with the latest declaration, it is a retcon.
 
>"Yeah, because 'BETTER' mean equal now, so when i saw that Usain Bolt is better than his competition, i'm actualy saying they are equal, that make sens."

Non-sequitur. Better =/= Stronger. Usain Bolt is better at what? Sprinting or marathoning? Context is important and I already explained the context behind Elder Kai's statement.

>"the 'aligning power level' isn't mentionned at all in the movie"

It's a basic requirement for fusing through a fusion dance. It's mentioned in the manga.

>"Except the Daizneshuu has direct endorsement from Toriyama and it's an official DB Guide, not just an article."

Still isn't written by Toriyama and comes from the people of Shueisha. Just as good as a Weekly Shonen Jump scan.

>"The daizenshuu's info is considered canon"

No, it's not.

>" it is a retcon"

No canon source contradicts the new information. And even though the non-canon sources don't matter, they still end in a tie. Literally nothing makes it a retcon.
 
Anyway, have they decided on an official name for the green-haired form yet? Previously it was called Legendary Super Saiya for many years. Super anime called it Berserker Super Saiya and Super manga called it a Demonic Saiya or something. Now apparently, it's being called Super Saiyan Full Power.
 
Leave it for DBS to come with the shittest names for every form they spam. SSB evaluation and FB SS are the lamest names I heard in a while.
 
Yeah I am not calling it Super Saiyan Full Power since I'm pretty sure there is already another form that is called Super Saiyan Full Power. I'm just gonna keep calling it Legendary Super Saiyan.
 
I'm gonna be honest, I like the Legendary name the best out of all these.

But I hope they call it Super Saiyan MAXIMUM just for the lulz
 
SS rage is still the stupidest name because of how synonomous it is to literally ever other rage state of Super Saiyan
 
Yeah. SSRage as well is pretty shitty name as well considering the reason to unlock SS in the first place is to be angry and desperate.
 
Two equally-matched trump cards. It's confirmation that Potara Fusion = Fusion Dance in power. This should end the debate on which Fusion method is stronger. They are equal but Potara has a longer fusion time that's all.
 
AKM sama said:
>"Yeah, because 'BETTER' mean equal now, so when i saw that Usain Bolt is better than his competition, i'm actualy saying they are equal, that make sens."Non-sequitur. Better =/= Stronger. Usain Bolt is better at what? Sprinting or marathoning? Context is important and I already explained the context behind Elder Kai's statement.
>"the 'aligning power level' isn't mentionned at all in the movie"

It's a basic requirement for fusing through a fusion dance. It's mentioned in the manga.

>"Except the Daizneshuu has direct endorsement from Toriyama and it's an official DB Guide, not just an article."

Still isn't written by Toriyama and comes from the people of Shueisha. Just as good as a Weekly Shonen Jump scan.

>"The daizenshuu's info is considered canon"

No, it's not.

>" it is a retcon"

No canon source contradicts the new information. And even though the non-canon sources don't matter, they still end in a tie. Literally nothing makes it a retcon.
Click to expand...
it is not a non-sequiture, just saying it is one is not an argument.

and Better = Equal ? no, Better mean Better, it's not by repeating 'Better =/= stronger' again and again that you will make a point, you can't be better and equal to something, it doesn't work and i already responded to what you said about the elder kaioshin.

no, what is mentioned in the manga is that you need similar power level, not that you need to aligne them.

Still is endorsed by Toriyama directly and still an official DB guide, way better than a weekly shonen jump article, the issue it come from wasn't even entirely about DB.

Yes, it is, the entier reasoning about this site's position the shockwave feat depend on Daizenshuu only info.

2 canon source contradict the new info and 1 'non canon' source (it's the same source as the one that is used to claim that Gogeta and Vegeto are now equal, the WSJ) contradict the new info too.

1 < 2 , 'non canon' < canon, they don't tie.

so once again, litteraly everything makes it a retcon, their own old article contradict them.
 
Dragomer said:
snip
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It's a better fusion method because of the reasons I pointed out, doesn't mean it generates a stronger fusion. Umm, you're just repeating the same thing over again. Refer to my last comment. Kinda lost interest because of all the argumentum ad nauseum. Can you just drop this now?
 
Yeah. Gogeta was the one with the buff. The dude is far beyond blue in just base. It's a boost i would have never imagined for a metamoran fusion.
 
LightinAnt said:
They didn't nerf Vegetto, its more like they buffed Gogeta, read the patchnotes
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Well, they nerfed Vegito's indefinite fusion time.

I guess the Elder Kai got worried for nothing.
 
So Fused Zamas (Who scales to Vegito Blue) doesn't completely annhilate SSB Goku and Vegeta from an earlier arc but Base Gogeta makes SSB Goku and Vegeta look like nothing?

Gogeta didn't get buffed, he got steroids that in turn had steroids.
 
Fused Zamasu really should've stomped both SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. But instead we somehow got SSBKK Goku somewhat hurting him. Even though later on he went on to fight Vegito Blue on roughly equal footing.
 
Vegito wasn't in Toriyama's original draft for the Zamasu arc, and Toyo/Toei just shoved him in for fan-service and made him equal to Zamasu just because they like close fights more, without paying attention to how broken fusion should be.

Gogeta is being written by Toriyama, who stick to his original idea of the fusion dwarfing everyone and everything

I wouldn't take the Zamasu arc battles seriously tbh.
 
Vegito being equal to Fused Zamasu is actually quite consistent with their fusees power. The main problem was Goku and Vegeta managing to hurt him despite the huge difference in power gained from fusion's multiplier.
 
Pretty much. Goku and Vegeta shouldn't been able to scratch Fused Zamasu, and then, you have freaking Trunks soloing him using his BS spirit bomb.

Lol the Zamasu arc ending was really bad.
 
I mean at least Future Trunks had a deus ex machina to justify him beating a weakened Fused Zamasu even if it's bad. Goku and Vegeta doesn't have any. They literally just went from getting owned by Goku Black to suddenly managing to push back Fused Zamasu's attacks and even injuring him out of nowhere.
 
Goku needed the power of the whole planet earth to kill Buu. Literally, 99% of the population was dead in the Trunks timeline.

Trunks got the power of dozen humans and two nearly dead Saiyans and he somehow can fight off fused Zamasu. F^ck that, Trunks was going head to head with him before he even pulled his BS spirit sword.

Shit was so bad it's hilarious at his point.
 
Oh right I forgot there were only a few dozen humans when he used the Spirit Bomb Sword. Though to be fair Goku and Vegeta weren't nearly dead they were just punched once by Fused Zamasu after defusing.

But yeah the last few episodes of the Future Trunks Arc after Zamasu fused was pretty inconsistent and bad.
 
I mean.... That isn't the most inconsistent thing in DBS:

Remember technically that Bergamo is supposed to be SSBKKx10 level via tanking damage ... Yet after training with Whis *one time*, Goku's base caught up to SSBKK level, to the point he overwhelmed Bergamo to the point he "couldn't absorb it... remember what happened with the Kamehameha... It was too powerful for him to absorb", implying his base power was far too much. And we have to assume that Bergamo trained too....

Which would then make anyone who can fight Goku & Vegeta during that time (Beginning of Tournament of Power) At least SSBKKx10 level , and make Goku's SSBKK that he used against Jiren = At least SSBKKx100, likely higher (Considering the multiplier for SS is 40x, and SS2 is at least twice that) .... Jeez.
 
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