Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 56: Low 2-C for everyone

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Aeyu

Toppo being surprised that Frieza survived basically confirmes that he expected him to die from it. And we already know Frieza can resist Hakai anyway, so it makes little difference. It's not an assumption, so I don't know why you keep saying that it is. Frieza can resist Hakai. Fact.

 

[Ryukama]

Again Toppo wanting to kill Frieza at that moment doesn't mean he used all of his power to do so. Especially when he later confirms he held back.

Sure Frieza can resist lesser degrees of hakai. But we've yet to seem him resist the full power of one. He can have resistance added to his profile, though I'd still say that a full powered hakai would easily erase him. And it's not just me saying that, the series itself says that.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I know. I never said Toppo was going all out. I was just saying that Frieza, once again, showed resistance to Hakai because people were saying he didn't.

 

[Ryukama]

Okay,

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Wait doesn't the next episode preview kind of prove that Beerus > Ultra Instinct Goku (1st and 2nd)??

Let's take a look:

Toppo is around the normal level of a God of Destruction which means he should around the level of guys like Sidra,Beerus,Belmod etc.

The next episode preview shows Vegeta fighting evenly against GoD Toppo and even having some trouble.

Vegeta is around Goku SSJBKKx20 level who is much stronger than SSJB Goku who at that point could fight against a more powered up Jiren than when he fought UI.

Which means that:

Jiren>>>Gods of Destruction/GoD Toppo => SSJB2 Vegeta => SSJBKKx20 Goku (Current)>>>>>>SSJB Goku (Current) => Ultra Instinct Goku (2nd)>>>SSJ2 Kefla>>Ultra Instinct Goku (1st)>>>>SSJ1 Kefla>>>>>SSJBKKx20 Goku (Pre-Jiren)

Its confusing.

 

[Ovrhide]

So thanks to toppo, we know that the gods of destruction have auras that erase anything that touches them, and have attacks that so the same, which is basically ultimate attack and defense at the same time, which begs the question...


WHAT DOES JIREN HAVE THAT EVEN A GOD OF DESTRUCTION CANT BEAT? Like really. If hakai and a hakai barrier can't stop jiren, then if Goku manages to beat jiren, it is gonna be the biggest asspull in the entire dbs history. Not even trunks spirit sword would be this asspullish.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

>protags = plot armor which is >>>>>>>>> hakai armor

 

[Ovrhide]

So let's add plot armor to jirens abilities lol.


But seriously, I'm guessing jiren has abilities to cancel out void manipulation. Theres no other way he could have defeated belmod.

 

[Aeyu]

@Meleenium

He may be able to resist it to some extent, but Toppo was NOT intending to erase him. He literally says he would Hakai him were it not for disqualification. Fact.

 

[ZERO7772]

Can we take time to recognize how impressive #17 has been in this tour#ament? dude now is taking on GoD by himself

No one except this to even survive to the final battle and look where he is now

 

[Ssr4vegito]

Remember when Toppo only had one move(justice flash)

 

[ZERO7772]

Yeah now he have 2 moves

Very impressive

 

[Blanked]

I know. I never said Toppo was going all out. I was just saying that Frieza, once again, showed resistance to Hakai because people were saying he didn't.

No, he didn't because Toppo didn't mean to erase him cause rules. Clearly said that one can use hakai to erase, but also as a normal attack.

 

[AKM sama]

Frieza has already shown resistance to EE. Why is this discussion even happening?

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

I know. I never said Toppo was going all out. I was just saying that Frieza, once again, showed resistance to Hakai because people were saying he didn't.

No, he didn't because Toppo didn't mean to erase him cause rules. Clearly said that one can use hakai to erase, but also as a normal attack.

I think Toppo said that its impressive Frieza survived the Hakai. The second time when he was squashing his head he said that he could kill him right there but if he did then would get disqualified.

 

[ZERO7772]

I like how Toppo began to care about rules near the end of the episode even though he was spamming Hakai like madman just earlier

 

[TheRustyOne]

Does anyone have any proof that Toppo was trying to kill anyone?

Toppo never said that he was impressed that Frieza survived it.

"So you withstood that, impressive."

He was impressed that Frieza was still conscious.

 

[AppleLord]

Was Toppo trying to get himself disqualify?

 

[AguilaR101]

Freeza is probably high 3-A even if toppo's hakai wasn't intended to kill him, the attack still ended up warping an infinite sized dimension.

 

[AKM sama]

Freeza is probably high 3-A even if toppo's hakai wasn't intended to kill him, the attack still ended up warping an infinite sized dimension.

True, but isn't it considered hax? Not AP?

 

[DatBoyNorbit]

I firmly believe Toppo to be level headed and keep his cool, and quite frankly we never seen Toppo enraged. I believe he is one of those characters that can keep his cool through alot of things. So yea he did put quite a deal of energy into that hakai, but it wasn't meant to kill, and he was not suprised that he survived, he was suprised Freeza was still conscious after a hit like that, heck i was suprised, i expected to see a scene with an incapacitated Freeza lying on the floor.

I also believe Toppo's attacks can erase things if he WANTS to. Like majin Buu can shoot regular Ki but he can also allow his ki to turn things into candy. I know it's two different types of ki but i believe ki is ki and it operates the same as the other varieties.

 

[Golden_Void]

How is it not? The terms were used interchangeably and Beerus said "It's hakai" when he saw the "energy of destruction" blasts Toppo was shooting. The idea that they are different techniques that function differently, to the point where one is a complete dura negation and the other can be bypassed through strength, isn't at all supported by the series.

They have the same effects, the same colored aura, one is called Hakai while the other is called "Energy of Hakai", and the terms are used interchangaebly.

They're the same thing. Only difference is the way they're shot out. One being like a ki blast and the other being out the palm. It's like saying that a foot kamehameha functions completely differently than a regular kamehameha.

Also I posted on your wall :^)

Sidra called it energy of destruction. Disregarding that and analyzing the attack itself, it is literally energy of destruction. Frieza even calls it energy in the Sidra episode. Regardless of their same effect, the fact that they are two different methods makes them different.

That's like comparing a KHH to a spirit bomb just because they both utilize ki.

Also, Toppo should probably scale above Sidra o.o

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Was Toppo trying to get himself disqualify?

Toppo shit stomps Frieza and then explicitly states that he could destroy him easily if he wanted to but is not going to as he would be disqualified. He was clearly holding back with his Hakai shit.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Spirit Bomb DOESN'T use KI it uses Genki or Health Energy.

These are two different things.

That's why it's called the Genki Dama.

 

[Golden_Void]

......ki is energy.

 

[Ryukama]

And Beerus called it "hakai". The terms are used interchangeably with each other. Also it's literally "Hakai" and "Energy of Hakai". The two attacks are obviously related. The fact that either term is being used to refer to them obviously indicates that too.

No the kamehameha and Spirit Bomb are explicitly two very different techniques, from two different sources, that function in completely different ways and have two different effects.

Hakai and Energy of Hakai have the same effects, the same colored aura, and the terms are used interchangaebly. Literally the only difference you can find between the two is that one is shot like a ki blast and the other is a wave out the palm. And you extrapolate that into assuming that they function completely differently, and that one is a full on durability negater and the other can be bypassed through strength. Or that if one can resist Energy of Hakai that doesn't mean they can resist Hakai.

Let's see. Attacks that look the same, have the same effect and are literally called the exact same thing as one another, but the only difference is how they're shot out? That's far more comparable to a foot kamehameha and a hand kamehameha than a Spirit Bomb and kamehameha.

 

[PaChi2]

Freeza is probably high 3-A even if toppo's hakai wasn't intended to kill him, the attack still ended up warping an infinite sized dimension.

The scaling problems, tho. Think about the scaling. It literally was the strongest attack up until now.

 

[Golden_Void]

One isn't shot out, the other is. Git gud.

KHH is internal ki, spirit bomb is ki taken from other organisms and/or possibly objects. Different applications of ki manipulation.

Toppo's aura is also energy of destruction, as an aura = energy.

 

[AguilaR101]

Even if it is hax it would become hax resistance on a high 3-A level minimum.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Even if it is hax it would become hax resistance on a high 3-A level minimum.

Agreed.

 

[Golden_Void]

Toppo holding back > the portion of energy Sidra attempted to use on Frieza (which he still struggled with)

He should be Low 2-C.

Especially since Goku and Vegeta are Low 2-C.

 

[Ryukama]

Again the only thing you have to hold on to is how they're blasted. Despite the fact that they have the same colored aura, the same effects and both terms are used interchangably. Things you'd consider to be "energy of destruction" were directly referred to as hakai in this episode. Also "energy of destruction" is literally just "energy of hakai". Though certainly energy of hakai has to be something not at all similar to hakai...

So despite all the similarities these two have, and the fact that they're referred to as the same thing, that one difference in how they're blasted is how you determine that they are completely different things, function completely differently, that one is a full durability negator while the other is not, and that if someone can resist energy of hakai they still can't resist hakai? That is the definition of presumptuous headcanon.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Even if it is hax it would become hax resistance on a high 3-A level minimum.

If we're applying a durability tier required to resist it, then why is it considered hax? I thought it negated durability anyway, and being able to resist it is totally separate from one's conventional durability.

 

[Golden_Void]

It's not headcanon, it means you just can't accept facts. You're vehemently disregarding an episode that accurately detailed a technique for a new episode that loosely describes the same thing. Selection bias.

Hakai

Energy of Destruction

They both achieve the same effect, but one is an actual ki blast. Nobody is saying they aren't related. Does Zeno have hakai because he has an existence erasure technique, even though he doesn't use energy of destruction like Toppo and Sidra, or Hakai like Beerus?

Inb4 final flash = destructo disc

Even Beerus makes a distinctio between the two in the episode you claimed to watch.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

have to say Ryu has a point.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Meleenium
He may be able to resist it to some extent, but Toppo was NOT intending to erase him. He literally says he would Hakai him were it not for disqualification. Fact.

Frieza was warn down and out of Golden Form. Of course he wouldn't be able to resist it then as he wouldn't be able to apply any effort into it.

 

[Zensum]

Agreed with rice, the ki of destruction and the ability Hakai are clearly differentiated.

 

[Kepekley23]

It is pure headcanon.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Hakai

Energy of destruction

Then why don't you just name them with consistent translations? There names would be Hakia and energy of hakia or Destruction and energy of Destruction if translated consistently.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

Yeah but there's at least one difference between the EoE and Hakai/Destroy. The former you can easily restrain, hold back and suppress seeing as it was given to the Universe 9 Assassin Leader safely without him being erased.