Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 56: Low 2-C for everyone

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Okay can someone please turn the music off? I muted the tab but when I left and came back, it wasn't muted, and I had my volume very high because I watched a video with low volume and now my neighbours complained and I'm being evicted and will be homeless now and will starve to death (kidding about that last part of being evicted, but the song still startled me).

 

[Ryukama]

Not gonna lie Toppo's new form looks like some fan made thing designed by MaSTAR Media ovo

 

[Amexim]

I like how Toppo had to throw away all of his morals and become a Nihilist just to... I guess, decide to use (?) this level of power.

So, for the Manga iteration of Goku. Do you guys think he would have a limited amount/use of Hakaishin energy (ignore the fact that we don't even know of the concept's existence in the manga, just shhhh)? And how do you guys think the Hakai works/is executed? Do you think the Gods just envelope their target with a SHU-like HXH technique and let the sheer contact with the small amount of Hakai Energy (it's probably a small amount because its so little) erase them and turn everything that they were into eraser shavings?

Or is Destruction Energy G Ki/Normal Ki (?) Imbued with the CONCEPT of Hakai. Meaning the move Goku and Beerus used against Zanmasu was just them using their control over the sheer Concept of Destruction offensively, hence why we don't see a crazy energy ball? Thoughts?

Inb4 people think I want a CRT, no. There's not enough of a statement to say that they've got Conceptual level Destruction powers. Just a delicious theory, nothing more, like V & J's power scale chart.

 

[JackJoyce]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/5/55/Screenshot_2018-01-28-10-49-03.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/180?cb=20180128052601[/IMG][/URL]
ZERO7772"]
Bruh he changed the color of certain area with his Hakai power that's all

I'm pretty sure he erased the space-time of a small area. The sky looks similar to when Zeno wipes out a universe

 

[Aeyu]

I don't think he became a nihilist. I think he just knew he had to compromise (He's probably like Goku and Vegeta in that he has a pure heart and doesn't want the savage energy of a GoD) and make the tough decision to release his real power, which went against his internal compass of right and wrong.

Also, it's not concept-level destruction. The idea of them still exists, or people wouldn't remember the erasure. It's simply being deleted from that reality.

 

[HST_Master]

Erasing Space-Time? Badass

Also I love the way he uses Hakai defensively, idc what anyone says, DB sure is versatile with how they use ki

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Freiza getting wreck after talking shit is pretty satisfying.

Also toppo is a beast.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Agreed seeing Frieze getting stomp was quite good.I hope #17 don't get eliminated.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

yeah toppo and jiren pls nerf DBFZ i bet will make them so broken they need a patch later after their DLC OVO

 

[HST_Master]

Ultra Instinct however will be even more broken dodging attacks automatically for the player, and will even dodge patch nerfs

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Jiren kept up so he will dodge nerf...wait shit i saw a fact and turns out Jiren doesn't get nerfed the games nerfs itself for him

 

[HST_Master]

Jiren Fact: When Jiren flips a coin, it lands on heads and tails

 

[Amexim]

For the Nihilist part, I'd like to cite Moral Nihilism as his specific brand and, well, point to the part where he says that it's beyond Good and Evil and only about survival. I mean, it's probably just my headcanon and me exaggerating it on purpose for a laugh, but you could interpret as him giving up on Justice entirely, depending on how you read it.

And, well, for the conceptual Destruction, I didn't consider their memory being erased. However, I do think that, since you can Hakai someone out of existence across all timelines, it comes pretty close. I mean, yeah, it doesn't erase their memory or history, but it erases their existence across time and space. I mean, how do we determine conceptual level powers without statements? Because it seems like you could keep it off limits for anyone who can't go beyond True-Godly Regen if we were being that Conservative.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Hakai doesn't erase people from all timelines, no idea where that comes from, if it did zamasu wouldn't exist in the future.

Conceptual destruction is a ridiculous ability which is why it requires feats or statements, we can't just assume any erasure ability or destruction, is comparable to destroying a persons literally concept.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Though tbf Zamasu/Goku Black was acausal via time ring but that's all tbh

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Jiren Fact: When Jiren flips a coin, it lands on heads and tails

Welp more jiren facts are going to show up lmfao

 

[Aeyu]

Zen'o erased Fusion Zamasu and he still existed in another timeline, so it's not just the Time Ring, it only erases you in THAT particular reality/dimension.

 

[Amexim]

I thought the Acausal, and the Immortality granted to that Zanmasu was the reason why it didn't work on either of them tho. Isn't there a statement that said by Beerus that no timeline of him would interfere?

 

[Aeyu]

There's no evidence SS's power transcends the timeline though, just as there's no evidence that Zen'o's does. Especially with there being a SS and Zen'o for each timeline.

 

[JackJoyce]

Zen'o erased Fusion Zamasu and he still existed in another timeline, so it's not just the Time Ring, it only erases you in THAT particular reality/dimension.

Zamasu didn't existed. Rather Future Trunks was supposed to create a new timeline via time-travel. I'm also not sure what they meant by a new timeline. Is it a new multiverse?

 

[Aeyu]

DB doesn't really follow how we structure multiverses on the wiki; they're more a Type I/possibly Type II multiverse on Tegmark's scale, and likely share the same time-space, but are separated on the wiki mostly due to convention. Yes, each timeline is treated as a separate multiverse with its own time-space. Zamasu ceased to be in THAT particular reality; it doesn't mean the concept of him or his nature in other realities was.

 

[JackJoyce]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/e0/IMG_20170908_224400_578.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171121073336[/IMG][/URL]
Aeyu"]
DB doesn't really follow how we structure multiverses on the wiki; they're more a Type I/possibly Type II multiverse on Tegmark's scale, and likely share the same time-space, but are separated on the wiki mostly due to convention. Yes, each timeline is treated as a separate multiverse with its own time-space. Zamasu ceased to be in THAT particular reality; it doesn't mean the concept of him or his nature in other realities was.

Ok. But the manga states differently. There's a neutral dimension between each universe

 

[Ryukama]

It's weird. Individual universes have separate space-times (like the afterlife, hyperbolic time chamber, Hit's dimensions, the neutral space between different universes) but all universes and space-times belong to a bigger timeline.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Don't forget World of the Void that Goku and Jiren shook.

 

[Amexim]

There's the fact that you can seemingly travel between universes. That's where the Universe 6 arc took place. Somehow, they operate in different Space-times with supposedly infinite space separating them(?), That they can just fly to the end to. Though, maybe Whis and Vados used a spell/technique/Warp to get to those places. The afterlife isn't a different Space-time, but it is a different dimension. So using Warp might make such things possible.

 

[AKM sama]

While watching this episode I was like:

...

 

[AKM sama]

Anyway, should invulnerability via hakaishin aura be added to Toppo's profile?

He can't be affected by normal physical or ki attacks as everything that touches him gets erased if he wants them to be.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

It's weird. Individual universes have separate space-times (like the afterlife, hyperbolic time chamber, Hit's dimensions, the neutral space between different universes) but all universes and space-times belong to a bigger timeline.

I wonder if every timeline has its own World of Void.

 

[DodoNova2]

OH MY GOD TOPPO

 

[AKM sama]

The new key for Toppo says "God of Destruction Candidate".

Why? That's not the name of a different mode or transformation. He is a GoD candidate in his base too. It should be more like God of Destruction Mode/Transformation/Aura or something like that.

 

[ZERO7772]

When Toppo is GoD status now and #17 is still putting work on him

My boy #17 been doing gods job in this tournament, he deserve his boat ~

 

[AllFiction]

Upgrade Frieza to High 3-A..

 

[ZERO7772]

The new key for Toppo says "God of Destruction Candidate".

Why? That's not the name of a different mode or transformation. He is a GoD candidate in his base too. It should be more like God of Destruction Mode/Transformation/Aura or something like that.

I agree, even the episode call him GoD Toppo

 

[AKM sama]

I knew for sure that they were gonna change the color of the void in the final moments but I always thought it would be done by either GP or by Goku vs Jiren.

What exactly did Toppo do to the void tho?

 

[Aeyu]

We went over why in the upgrade thread. I really don't want to get into this again. Not to mention the staff all seemingly agreed with me as well. He is NOT a God of Destruction. Gods of Destruction are appointed by Zen'o; this is alluded to several times in previous episodes. Just because he is their equal does not mean he shares their title. He is the Candidate to be GoD; this is stated by Khai, and differentiates him from the true GoDs, regardless of his power being equal to theirs.

However, invulnerability seems logical. We have it listed under Aura and Void Manipulation right now, which it is both of.

@AllFiction

We went over this too, he's not getting an upgrade. Him surviving was deemed an outlier.

And Toppo warped the entirety of its space and removed the Grand Priest's spell, @AKM.

 

[Pannaliciour]

The reason that there was no universal feat in the movie was stated in the interview. After the earthquake in japan they wanted no or not mucb destruction feat in the movie. But it is clearly Toriyama's idea as the universal feat was also in the manga. They weren't even at 100%

Can I please have a source for this?

Yeay sure! Here is the source of the interview:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dvd-blu-ray-vision-april-2013-battle-of-gods/

And here is the quote that you are looking for:

Even with respect to the action scenes, because of Toriyama-sensei's feeling of "I don't want to depict destruction after the earthquake", not a single building is destroyed. I also thought that idea was incredibly wonderful, and the action scenes where no buildings are destroyed were, contrary [to what you'd think], amazingly cool

Is this evidence sufficient?

 

[AKM sama]

But there is a separate page for invulnerability.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Invulnerability

 

[Aeyu]

I'm well aware, and think it could be added too alongside his Void Manipulation and Aura.

 

[AKM sama]

@Aeyu

I was not saying that we should change the name to "God of Destruction" because I read that upgrade thread. I was just saying that it can be changed to something else because I don't see how "GoD Candidate" can be used to justify his new power when he is already a GoD candidate in his base form.

Anyway, that's not an important issue.

 

[AKM sama]

OH MY GOD TOPPO

I felt very bad for Toppo when Freeza and 17 were ganging up on him. It reminded me of "Light of Hope" Gohan.