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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Spinoirr said:
Also helps Bardock is implied to have fought Freiza force grunts and survived off screen in the Broly movie
Click to expand...
Elaborate. Clarify.

Also, going over the justifications, I do want to say that Paragus was considered Low Class in the film by King Vegeta, so do we apply his PL into that range? The reason I ask is because he was at 4,200 in the film (at old age), which would put him above NAPPA, a Mid-Class Saiyan, despite the fact he is likely weaker than his Adult Self due to the detoriation of the Saiyan Body and it's strength once it passes it's agelessness limit at 80.

Obviously this is an inconsistency, but I'm trying to find an in-lore reason as to why it is. Currently, my thinking is that Nappa and Raditz's ranks were bolstered a tad because they were the sole remaining Saiyans besides Vegeta, since Vegeta himself in Manga also considers Raditz to be Low Class when he dies to Piccolo. That or it's just standard Royalty Bluster, but it doesn't make much sense to me to be that since KV didn't seem to have a problem with any other children in that area.
 
RedReaper said:
Elaborate. Clarify.

Also, going over the justifications, I do want to say that Paragus was considered Low Class in the film by King Vegeta, so do we apply his PL into that range? The reason I ask is because he was at 4,200 in the film (at old age), which would put him above NAPPA, a Mid-Class Saiyan, despite the fact he is likely weaker than his Adult Self due to the detoriation of the Saiyan Body and it's strength once it passes it's agelessness limit at 80.

Obviously this is an inconsistency, but I'm trying to find an in-lore reason as to why it is. Currently, my thinking is that Nappa and Raditz's ranks were bolstered a tad because they were the sole remaining Saiyans besides Vegeta, since Vegeta himself in Manga also considers Raditz to be Low Class when he dies to Piccolo. That or it's just standard Royalty Bluster, but it doesn't make much sense to me to be that since KV didn't seem to have a problem with any other children in that area.
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Isn't nappa closer to 8000 at full power? Based on his fight with Goku after he called down?
 
BlastX said:
Same reason Vegerot went Super Saiyan against Buuhan even though he had the upper hand in base.

***** and giggles.

Although IIRC Goku wasn't doing so hot against Ledgic until he went Super Saiyan.
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Goku had the upper hand(ish) until he got kicked in the stomach then ping pong for like a few seconds
 
Jaakor48 said:
Isn't nappa closer to 8000 at full power? Based on his fight with Goku after he called down?
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He's close enough to make Goku struggle at 8000 without Kaioken, but we don't know his exact numbers from any in story dialogue. However, we know that officially, he's 4000 from the Daizenshuu, the DB Volume Q&A, and Weekly Shonen Jump. Implying that Nappa was keeping up not via stats, but his own will to fight and training.

Edit: Included sources.
 
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RedReaper said:
He's close enough to make Goku struggle at 8000 without Kaioken, but we don't know his exact numbers from any in story dialogue. However, we know that officially, he's 4000 from the Daizenshuu, the DB Volume Q&A, and Weekly Shonen Jump, though for. Implying that Nappa was keeping up not via stats, but his own will to fight and training.
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Eh, either way, no way he could he be less than 4200 at that point, will or no will Goku would bitchslap him into a coma with a PL gap that high, especially in early DBZ where Power levels were basically expos to who'd win
 
Jaakor48 said:
Eh, either way, no way he could he be less than 4200 at that point, will or no will Goku would bitchslap him into a coma with a PL gap that high, especially in early DBZ where Power levels were basically expos to who'd win
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Sure, but it does create a bit of a question mark.

Personally, it's my headcanon is that the Promotion Based system is simply inefficient/ineffective due to corruption, or despite it's existence is simply not utilized at all by Saiyan society (because this was very clearly retroactively added in by Toriyama). Vegeta considered Goku Low Class despite being at 8000, and even when he proved himself near to the Prince in power. He considered Raditz Low Class, but Raditz was at a 1,500. Stronger than most in the Force, and we know "Super Elites/Elites" are the Vegeta bloodline at 10,000 (or higher). Nappa is Mid-Class, but he's at 4000, so he should either be Low-Mid Class and thus not be as rated as highly, or characters like Raditz should be rated higher. Especially since he's officially Mid-Class, according to Toriyama (yet in story they act as if he's claiming that as a lie). King Vegeta considered Paragus Low Class, but Paragus was at 4,200 and was a Colonel. Meaning he should be rated MUCH higher, and have a rank comparable to Nappa's. Hell, this seems to be the case in Toei. Turles had a PL of near 30K and was considered Low Class. Z Bardock was near King Vegeta (at 10K) but he never got promoted. Tarble was considered humilating in power level and fighting Spirit, sent away, but he was able to fend off Abo and Kabo, who were of equal rank to Captain Ginyu. There's no rhyme or reason to the ratings, really.
 
Huesito88 said:
Goku has been brain damaged since he hit his head as a kid
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Literally got his whole moral compass realigned to the point any notion of evil in him got purged (e.g devil-mite beam and Nimbus) just from falling.
Fezzih_007 said:
Grandpa Gohan accidentely dropping a child into a ravine is both bad and good.

What a chad for achiving this paradox.
Click to expand...
Future Trunks: nervous laughter

Imagine if Toei or Toyo retroactively confirmed (direct or indirectly) that Bardock's wish played a part in little Goku's accident?
 
I made a minor adjustment to DBS Bardock's rating:

"At least Moon level (Should be superior to the Cerealian who destroyed planet Cereal's Moon. Stronger than Monaito, who has a power level of 213, putting him above an early Z Krillin), likely Small Planet Level, as he is considered by Gas to be stronger than Low-Class Saiyans, making him nearer in power to Mid-Class Saiyan Warriors such as Raditz as an the Uppermost Low-Class Warrior. Should also at least be superior to Unweighted Early Saiyan Saga Goku and Piccolo, Jaco, and Frieza Grunts. At least Planet Level with Oozaru | At least Planet Level in his new Limits Broken level of power (Gas considered the rise in power to be similar to that a transformation, such as the Oozaru, and Bardock was able to overcome Gas Instincts Unleashed state despite his base form already being at disadvantage to Base Gas in power), likely far higher (Should have gotten a Zenkai Boost from recovering), can get even higher with the Oozaru."

Because his Limits Broken State is just his Zenkai Boost he got mid-fight. After it he got a Zenkai from the Heal/Recovery and regained his tail, so he SHOULD be even stronger by DBS: Broly and Dragon Ball Minus.
 
Last edited:
RedReaper said:
I made a minor adjustment to DBS Bardock's rating:

"At least Moon level (Should be superior to the Cerealian who destroyed planet Cereal's Moon. Stronger than Monaito, who has a power level of 213, putting him above an early Z Krillin), likely Small Planet Level, as he is considered by Gas to be stronger than Low-Class Saiyans, making him nearer in power to Mid-Class Saiyan Warriors such as Raditz as an the Uppermost Low-Class Warrior. Should also at least be superior to Unweighted Early Saiyan Saga Goku and Piccolo, Jaco, and Frieza Grunts. At least Planet Level with Oozaru | At least Planet Level in his new Limits Broken level of power (Gas considered the rise in power to be similar to that a transformation, such as the Oozaru, and Bardock was able to overcome Gas Instincts Unleashed state), likely far higher (Should have gotten a Zenkai Boost from recovering), can get even higher with the Oozaru."

Because his Limits Broken State is just his Zenkai Boost he got mid-fight. After it he got a Zenkai from the Heal/Recovery and regained his tail, so he SHOULD be even stronger by DBS: Broly and Dragon Ball Minus.
Click to expand...
Do we have a canon profile of Bardock?
 
RedReaper said:
Okay, question. Do we apply the Oozaru's 10 multipler in speed? Because it doesn't seem like it. And if we do not, why?
Click to expand...
iicr he only thing supporting it having 10x speed is Oozaru Vegeta being faster than Goku's hypothetical 5x Kaio-ken, but other than that nothing else supports it. I'm fine it being 10x speed like most multipliers tho
 
Ednaxel2 said:
iicr he only thing supporting it having 10x speed is Oozaru Vegeta being faster than Goku's hypothetical 5x Kaio-ken, but other than that nothing else supports it. I'm fine it being 10x speed like most multipliers tho
Click to expand...
I only ask because I was doing DBS Bardock's profile, and then I noticed that none of the profiles with an Oozaru form accounted for the actual speed increase. Such as as Raditz or Nappa, (not even as a "higher as Oozaru,") and the ones who did actually have an increase written don't have the actual multiplier behind it (Z Bardock, Vegeta, Gohan, etc).

I'm going to apply it properly to my profile, and then in my revision we can alter the profiles of the Oozaru having Saiyans to properly reflect their true speed.
 
RedReaper said:
Sure, but it does create a bit of a question mark.

Personally, it's my headcanon is that the Promotion Based system is simply inefficient/ineffective due to corruption, or despite it's existence is simply not utilized at all by Saiyan society (because this was very clearly retroactively added in by Toriyama). Vegeta considered Goku Low Class despite being at 8000, and even when he proved himself near to the Prince in power. He considered Raditz Low Class, but Raditz was at a 1,500. Stronger than most in the Force, and we know "Super Elites/Elites" are the Vegeta bloodline at 10,000 (or higher). Nappa is Mid-Class, but he's at 4000, so he should either be Low-Mid Class and thus not be as rated as highly, or characters like Raditz should be rated higher. Especially since he's officially Mid-Class, according to Toriyama (yet in story they act as if he's claiming that as a lie). King Vegeta considered Paragus Low Class, but Paragus was at 4,200 and was a Colonel. Meaning he should be rated MUCH higher, and have a rank comparable to Nappa's. Hell, this seems to be the case in Toei. Turles had a PL of near 30K and was considered Low Class. Z Bardock was near King Vegeta (at 10K) but he never got promoted. Tarble was considered humilating in power level and fighting Spirit, sent away, but he was able to fend off Abo and Kabo, who were of equal rank to Captain Ginyu. There's no rhyme or reason to the ratings, really.
Click to expand...
Vegeta probably considers them stuck in the class they were born with, Raditz was born a low class but rise up to Middle Class, but to Vegeta he will always be a low class, doesn't help that he's still massively weaker than him, same as Goku, he's practically high class when they first fought but to Vegeta he will always remain a low class, doesn't help he's still much weaker than him.
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Literally got his whole moral compass realigned to the point any notion of evil in him got purged (e.g devil-mite beam and Nimbus) just from falling.

Future Trunks: nervous laughter

Imagine if Toei or Toyo retroactively confirmed (direct or indirectly) that Bardock's wish played a part in little Goku's accident?
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure even if Goku never hit his head he would have grown up a good guy, if Vegeta who was cruel even by Saiyan standards became a good guy, then Goku probably could too...and besides he was a toddler, we don't remain that way as we grow up especially given his environment.
 
BlastX said:
Vegeta probably considers them stuck in the class they were born with, Raditz was born a low class but rise up to Middle Class, but to Vegeta he will always be a low class, doesn't help that he's still massively weaker than him, same as Goku, he's practically high class when they first fought but to Vegeta he will always remain a low class, doesn't help he's still much weaker than him.
Click to expand...
I think this as well, but this gets murky, because according to Toriyama Raditz was born strong enough to be on Nappa's Squad, (which we see in DBM and DBS: Broly), which is where the Mid Tier Saiyans fought. Vegeta joined in after him. So presumably, Raditz was born Middle Class.
 
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