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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Remus1998 said:
So I wasn't smoking crack after all. Thanks
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Hakai itself didn't do anything. The point is that, regardless of the timeline he was in, the destruction of Goku Black's past self would normally result in his own destruction, but that, due to the Time Ring preventing paradoxical anomalies from effecting the user, he was immune to this law of causality. I don't think anything here implies that it specifically saved him from Hakai rather than him being killed in a previous moment in history.
 
JohnCenaNation said:
What about Whis continue on killing and healing Broly until Broly becomes strong enough to kill Whis similarly to Retsu and Kenpachi scenario?
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Broly hardcapped against Goku Blue, hence Freeza killing Paragus so he goes Super Saiyan. Broly would likely hit another hard limit like that eventually and would need an impetus to go Super Saiyan 2 and break his limits again, something Whis can't really provide without killing someone.
 
GarrixianXD said:
I’d have to disagree, the entirety of Super wouldn’t even exist without Whis tbh

Yes, transforming is obviously an utility what else would it be? Super Saiyan Blue obviously derived from them honing God Ki. And you forgot about Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego.
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Ultra Instinct is a culmination of Goku's teachers in the manga with Roshi being the one to complete the lesson and even then Goku only learned to do it at will thanks to Merus's teaching. Seriously why is that a Trainee Angel has to teach Goku how to use Ultra Instinct at will? Even True Ultra Instinct was only achieved thanks to Bardock.

As for Ultra Ego, Whis has nothing to do with that. Vegeta learned that under Beerus. Vegeta even straight up says Whis's lessons aren't compatible with him in the ToP when he unlocks SSBE.

As for Super Saiyan Blue, no not really. Whis specifically tells them to stop transforming as a crutch so them learning a new form directly contradicts his teachings. Goku learned God Ki already via the SSG ritual so the most Whis ever does is Vegeta learning God Ki, which is offscreen. And even then Super Saiyan Blue is one of the most pointless forms in the entire franchise and had awful flaws that Goku had to fix with zero direction from Whis (in the manga). So even if I gave you SSB, that was in their first year of training out of four and that's all Whis has given them.
SSJGeminiJJ said:
Been saying Whis is a fraud, cook

It's even worse when you frame it with Super's story as a whole where normal mortal Ki users consistently match and surpass the Saiyans effortlessly, despite them being a warrior race born for combat (meaning their potential should be up there and not nearly as low as Super portrays it in contrast to the mortal villains). Everything just points to Whis simply being full of shit
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Freeza has no teacher and one shot UI and UE. Hit has no teacher and could contend with SSB. Black had no teacher and managed to surpass Goku who had Whis to teach him. Jiren's teacher died when he was a kid and he gained his power by himself. Broly never had a teacher and needed an SSB Fusion to be defeated. Moro never trained a day in his life and was able to match Ultra Instinct and then Gas and Granolah have no teachers and stomped UI with Dragon Ball wishes.

It's really impressive how Goku and Vegeta are trained by Whis constantly yet have zero new techniques to show for it and the only significant leaps they make are thanks to other characters helping them with Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego. When Vegeta figured out the whole 'Explosive Power' thing and Whis went "Wow excellent work Vegeta figuring that out on your own!" I rolled my eyes because Whis could have taught them that years ago and just neglected it entirely.

Whis has to be one of the worst teachers in all of Shonen. At least Jiraiya taught Naruto the Rasengan and Toad Summons even if the two year timeskip was worthless. All Whis has done is congratulate them when they figure things out on their own and lay down breadcrumbs that are useless. You know your teacher is god awful when every other dude who doesn't have a teacher can kick your ass constantly.
 
I never considered Whis a teacher like Roshi, Whis came in at a different time in Goku and Vegeta's life where they can find ways to grow on their own. Whis is a super strong guy they train with, but even Whis straight up tells Goku 'who are you really?', meaning he is fine taking a back seat and letting the saiyans grow their own way. After the weighted clothing stuff, Whis seemed to figure out how they work and let them pursue their own path. Whis is a bad mentor is a dumb statement because he's hardly a mentor like Roshi. Sure Whis helps out and chimes in with advice, but for the most part it seems he waits for the saiyans to grow on their own first. He is Beerus' mentor, he really only trains Goku and Vegeta because food and he prolly has a soft spot for them.

Saying Whis is a fraud is genuinely hilarious because he has no obligation to train anyone other than Beerus. He's an angel whose supposed to be impartial but not really. Would it be nice if we say more fruits of training with Whis, yeah, but keep in mind Vegeta was able to unlock God Ki, a dimensionally different realm of power, on his own, by training under Whis.

Fraud my ass, Whis doesn't owe anybody jack shit, Goku and Vegeta don't reflect his teachings, Beerus does.
 
Whis is more like a martial artist equivalent of a college professor who just teaches you the basics and expects you to learn by yourself.
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
I never considered Whis a teacher
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So why exactly do Goku and Vegeta specifically go to Beerus's Planet to train? Why does Whis lecture them? Why does he provide them training equipment? Why does the narrator state they went to Whis to be trained? How about Whis actively dictating the rules of their training, telling them what to do and Champa asking if they are his 'new apprentices'? Or Goku asking Whis for a 'lesson'? Even Whis himself states that he is training mortals and Goku considers Whis one of his masters.

At what point do we consider Whis to be Goku and Vegeta's teacher?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
So why exactly do Goku and Vegeta specifically go to Beerus's Planet to train? Why does Whis lecture them? Why does he provide them training equipment? Why does the narrator state they went to Whis to be trained? How about Whis actively dictating the rules of their training, telling them what to do and Champa asking if they are his 'new apprentices'? Or Goku asking Whis for a 'lesson'? Even Whis himself states that he is training mortals and Goku considers Whis one of his masters.

At what point do we consider Whis to be Goku and Vegeta's teacher?
Click to expand...
Do you ever heard about a coach?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
So why exactly do Goku and Vegeta specifically go to Beerus's Planet to train? Why does Whis lecture them? Why does he provide them training equipment? Why does the narrator state they went to Whis to be trained? How about Whis actively dictating the rules of their training, telling them what to do and Champa asking if they are his 'new apprentices'? Or Goku asking Whis for a 'lesson'? Even Whis himself states that he is training mortals and Goku considers Whis one of his masters.

At what point do we consider Whis to be Goku and Vegeta's teacher?
Click to expand...
This is a wierd response because one of these links shows Whis' teachings being helpful if not downright crucial to Goku's growth, which sorta defeats the 'whis bad' thing. The other is champa making an assumption, and the other one shows them training with Whis but it's pretty early on before Whis decides to let them do their own thing and grow their own way. And Whis saying he's decided to teach them proved my point even more so, he is going out of his way to do this, he is doing something not required of him, so sending this link along with another one showing an example of whis' lesson being vital is super counterintuitive.

None of this really disproves my point that the longer they trained with whis, the more loose things got. They don't do weights anymore and stick to general sparring. Even in lore, Whis being a bad teacher is hilariously dumb outright because Beerus is possibly the strongest GoD, being the most in tune with UI or closest to mastering it.

So yeah, Whis is a ******* angel whose only job it is is to train Beerus. The fact he's bothering to train with the saiyans at all is more than telling.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Goku Black explains that Present Zamasu is his past self, and that he is unaffected by any alterations to his past self because of the Time Ring, which implies that altering the history of a character affects their current self, in-line with statements made by Whis.
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That doesn’t imply that at all changing something in a past timeline doesn’t affect one’s present this is explained by Beerus when trunks says that killing the androids in the past didn’t change his future and Beerus says don’t worry that’s the mortal logic when a god destroys a god it affects space-time implying that that god does die in the other timeline as well if they’re not wearing a time ring so acasuality Whis just explains when you go into the past a minor thing will lead to major events but once you travel to the past that’s already a branched timeline
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
That doesn’t imply that at all changing something in a past timeline doesn’t affect one’s present this is explained by Beerus when trunks says that killing the androids in the past didn’t change his future and Beerus says don’t worry that’s the mortal logic when a god destroys a god it affects space-time implying that that god does die in the other timeline as well if they’re not wearing a time ring so acasuality Whis just explains when you go into the past a minor thing will lead to major events but once you travel to the past that’s already a branched timeline
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How does "a god destroying a god affects space-time" and "No, Trunks, you're wrong, the future will change because I destroyed his past self" at all contradict what I said?
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
That doesn’t imply that at all changing something in a past timeline doesn’t affect one’s present this is explained by Beerus when trunks says that killing the androids in the past didn’t change his future and Beerus says don’t worry that’s the mortal logic when a god destroys a god it affects space-time implying that that god does die in the other timeline as well if they’re not wearing a time ring so acasuality Whis just explains when you go into the past a minor thing will lead to major events but once you travel to the past that’s already a branched timeline
Click to expand...
no, nothing implied God destroy other god also killing them across other timeline, nothing backed this up, or else another Zamasu who working along side Black should be erased as that Zamasu didn't wear any Time Ring, and well @Nullflowerblush already said other evidences
 
Nullflowerblush said:
How does "a god destroying a god affects space-time" and "No, Trunks, you're wrong, the future will change because I destroyed his past self" at all contradict what I said?
Click to expand...
You said altering a history of a character affects their present self which is wrong and it’s been established that the DB cosmology doesn’t work that way it makes branching timelines

Trunks’s explanation says that whatever happens in the past won’t affect the future since Goku Black is from a similar timeline to the one Goku’s from but it’s unaltered

Beerus explains that that’s mortal logic and that when a god destroys a god it affects space time implying that Goku Black would get affected by present Zamasu getting erased but he had the time ring so he was safe but if someone like Goku killed Zamasu nothing would happen
Vietthai96 said:
no, nothing implied God destroy other god also killing them across other timeline, nothing backed this up, or else another Zamasu who working along side Black should be erased as that Zamasu didn't wear any Time Ring, and well @Nullflowerblush already said other evidences
Click to expand...
My guy doing something in the past doesn’t affect the future trunks explains this and it’s Been explained the cosmology doesn’t work like this it falls under MWI
 
Nullflowerblush said:
It's the same timeline, just splintered.
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It has the same events up to a certain point but it’s not the same exact timeline like how Future Trunks timeline is a timeline split from the one we know as the main timeline

so no it’s not the same timeline but one branches off from another with different events even the toei timeline chart lists them as separate timelines though not like the origin of Goku Black makes sense in the first place
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
It has the same events up to a certain point but it’s not the same exact timeline like how Future Trunks timeline is a timeline split from the one we know as the main timeline
Click to expand...
The Main History and Future Trunks's History are separate, but connected through the Time Machine, but Goku Black originates in the unaltered Main History, and erasing Zamasu should have erased Black by proxy, as the timeline had not split until then. Black was linked to the Main History in which Future Trunks arrived from the future and warned the party of Zamasu's plot, and both Beerus and Black explain that because of this, killing Zamasu in the past naturally would have affected Black, too.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
The Main History and Future Trunks's History are separate, but connected through the Time Machine, but Goku Black originates in the unaltered Main History, and erasing Zamasu should have erased Black by proxy, as the timeline had not split until then. Black was linked to the Main History in which Future Trunks arrived from the future and warned the party of Zamasu's plot, and both Beerus and Black explain that because of this, killing Zamasu in the past naturally would have affected Black, too.
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Beerus’s statement literally says otherwise along with Future Trunk’s question the only reason it would’ve killed Black is because it’s god on god time ring saved him though those 2 are still seperate histories like trunks and the main timeline the split just happens a lot later this doesn’t change the fact they’re still 2 different histories

do you have discord?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Goku Black explains that Present Zamasu is his past self, and that he is unaffected by any alterations to his past self because of the Time Ring, which implies that altering the history of a character affects their current self, in-line with statements made by Whis.
Click to expand...
Whis is only saying that changing the past can result in extreme changes in the future. Zamasu dying is a direct conflict with Gods killing Gods, as both beerus and trunks agree that changing the past doesn’t effect the branched out timeline.
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
What's the disagreement about I'm lost
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Basically Null’s tryna say that affecting the past can affect the future which was gonna happen when Zamasu got erased by Beerus but we’re explaining that’s a different thing because thats god on god normally that’s not how it works

Past timeline changing doesn’t change the future timeline is what I’m arguing god on god is an exception
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
Basically Null’s tryna say that affecting the past can affect the future which was gonna happen when Zamasu got erased by Beerus but we’re explaining that’s a different thing because thats god on god normally that’s not how it works

Past timeline changing doesn’t change the future timeline is what I’m arguing god on god is an exception
Click to expand...
it is the same timeline, Black is from the unaltered main timeline, and beerus explains that gods killing other gods do not branch the timeline but change the future, that is what he said
 
DBS manga scaling (cont)

(Black arc) Goku :1 ( remember his SS3 was beneath Goku blacks Base
SSR Black: 156.25 Trillion
Merged Zamasu 156.25 Trillion
CSSB 156.25 Trillion
CSSB multiplier 156.25 Trillion x
Base Vegeta: (post Black): 500x
CSSB Vegeta: 78.125 Quadrillion x
CSSB Goku: 78.125 Quadrillion x
MUI : 1.875 Sextillion x ( Comparable to Vegito SSB)
MUI multiplier over CSSB 24,000x
Gogeta base 78.125 quadrillion x
CSSB Gogeta 12.207031 Nonillion x
 
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