Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Omegas03]

Then we have Base Kefla easily handling SSJG Goku, which seems to contradict this

BoG SSG >>>>>>>> (add infinite >s) SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta, hence Pre God ritual Vegito's boost wouldnt be nearly enough to approach SSG Goku's strength.

meanwhile

ToP SSG and Skinny/Controlled Berserker Kale are relative with Goku still having a clear but not one sided advantage. Which means the potara boost between her and SSJ2 Caulifla would make it enough to stomp SSG Goku as Base.

means that the situations affected the potara boost rather than the SSG one which is still worlds ahead of SSJ3 (and I think 50x due to SSG Goku > SS Vegito > Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku is a fair assumption to make).

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

BoG SSG >>>>>>>> (add infinite >s) SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta, hence Pre God ritual Vegito's boost wouldnt be nearly enough to approach SSG Goku's strength.

meanwhile

ToP SSG and Skinny/Controlled Berserker Kale are relative with Goku still having a clear but not one sided advantage. Which means the potara boost between her and SSJ2 Caulifla would make it enough to stomp SSG Goku as Base.

means that the situations affected the potara boost rather than the SSG one which is still worlds ahead of SSJ3 (and I think 50x due to SSG Goku > SS Vegito > Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku is a fair assumption to make).

Yeah Kefla isn’t really an argument because what ssjg goku became solar system level to Low Multi with a transformation? And ssjg has a set multiplier while fusion is user x user meaning depending on the users it multiplies your power even more

 

[JirensMom]

Wasn't Kale stronger than ssj3? I don't remember very well, but I think it was. Perhaps that could explain why the kefla base was so strong.

Easily. She even pushed back a blast from SSG Goku

 

[Omegas03]

Now that I think about it, is the current SSG boost the same as the one Goku got in the ritual for the first time?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Now that I think about it, is the current SSG boost the same as the one Goku got in the ritual for the first time?

Should be why?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What about Base Gogeta being stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta? We know Vegito and Gogeta are equally-matched ultimate trump cards.
Don't think we can say SSJG's multiplier is above an SSJ Fusion's.

 

[AwkguyDB]

The anime makes it very clear that only ssj god could have a formidable fight with bills at that moment, goku himself discards the fusion.

Right Im saying that while I can see at least 50x SSJ3 as a starting ground for SSJG's hypothetical multiplier, it still should be way more than that.

 

[AwkguyDB]

What about Base Gogeta being stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta? We know Vegito and Gogeta are equally-matched ultimate trump cards.
Don't think we can say SSJG's multiplier is above an SSJ Fusion's.

Fusions if I recall are above the Saiyans full potential at that time (Hence why we scale Base Vegito to SSJ3 Goku) With the unlocking of SSJG forms the Saiyans have higher levels of power and thus their Fusions would exponentially increase.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

What about Base Gogeta being stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta? We know Vegito and Gogeta are equally-matched ultimate trump cards.
Don't think we can say SSJG's multiplier is above an SSJ Fusion's.

Yeah Kefla isn’t really an argument because what ssjg goku became solar system level to Low Multi with a transformation? And ssjg has a set multiplier while fusion is user x user meaning depending on the users it multiplies your power even more

Same explanation here but replace Kefla

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Fusions if I recall are above the Saiyans full potential at that time (Hence why we scale Base Vegito to SSJ3 Goku) With the unlocking of SSJG forms the Saiyans have higher levels of power and thus their Fusions would exponentially increase.

I like the explanation but is there like hard proof rather than just reasoning.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

We need support on this CRT over DB :3

 

[AwkguyDB]

Being a combination of two Saiyans, his appearance hasn't changed all that much, and feels like a combination of Goku's face and Vegeta's hairstyle. He has both Vegeta' coolheaded battle strategies and Goku's pure fighting sense, and there can be no doubt that his strength measures even greater than that of a (Super) Saiyan 3. ~ Daizenshuu

I feel like it's clearly saying that he has the combined, appearance, mindset and potential of both Goku and Vegeta

Therefore it shouldn't be an issue for Vegito's Battle Power/Strength to change along with the potential, appearances and mindsets of Goku and Vegeta. While having his own special uniqueness in himself like his strength not changing at all when he's trans-mutated by Buu

 

[AguilaR202]

Wasn't Kale stronger than ssj3? I don't remember very well, but I think it was. Perhaps that could explain why the kefla base was so strong.

Controlled Berserk Kale had her attacks nullified by SS3 aura.

By all merits Base Kefla doing shit to SSG Goku is inconsistent af and the show just rolls with it.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The guides literally state potara is A*B fusion it multiplies the power based on the strength of those 2 people Kefla clapping ssjg goku isn’t inconsistent

SSJG will always have a set multiplier
Potara is dependent on the strength of those 2 people

Yeah Kefla isn’t really an argument because what ssjg goku became solar system level to Low Multi with a transformation? And ssjg has a set multiplier while fusion is user x user meaning depending on the users it multiplies your power even more

 

[AwkguyDB]

Controlled Berserk Kale had her attacks nullified by SS3 aura.

By all merits Base Kefla doing shit to SSG Goku is inconsistent af and the show just rolls with it.

TBF these girls grew in strength exponentially during their time "fighting" training with Goku

 

[AwkguyDB]

SSJG will always have a set multiplier
Potara is dependent on the strength of those 2 people

For all extensive purposes we have to look at the show from this mindset. The Vegito Blue of the Black arc would get clapped by the Base Gogeta of the Broly movie simply because Goku and Vegeta are a lot stronger in their SSJB forms than Vegito was in the Black Arc.

A Hypothetical Base Vegito post BoG arc would dominate SSJG Goku BoG

 

[AguilaR202]

The guides literally state potara is A*B fusion it multiplies the power based on the strength of those 2 people Kefla clapping ssjg goku isn’t inconsistent

SSJG will always have a set multiplier
Potara is dependent on the strength of those 2 people

It is because the components of the fusion are similar to an hypothetical BoG Vegito

Goku had SS3
Vegeta has SS2

Even if fused and at peak Goku deemed it insufficient and SSG to be leaps above it

Caulifla had power comparable to SS2 Goku during the ToP
Kale had power close or around SS3 level

Their fusion in base can now match SSG?

I don’t know how to make it easier to explain but the gist is that even if potara accounted for individual PLs for its resulting power, it still doesn’t make sense for characters substantially below SSG level to be stronger than it.

Either Goku can’t accurately guesstimate how strong potara fusion makes him or SSG has a non static multiplier, opting for the first based on buu saga dialogue.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Gamma 1 vs SS1 Gohan was much closer than Gamma 2 destroying Ultimate Piccolo and there are even statements that Gamma 1 was actively adapting to Gohan's power and fighting style

Yeah no Gamma 1 himself said that Gohan was fodder :

Right after Gamma 1 made that statement he started stomping SSJ gohan like he was nothing which clearly suggest that SSJ gohan was nowhere near Gamma 1 level so whatever Gamma 1 was adapting to Gohan's fighting style or his movements clearly has nothing to do with the power difference

 

[AwkguyDB]

Even if fused and at peak Goku deemed it insufficient and SSG to be leaps above it

At That Time
Goku deemed it completely out of the question because he knew the potential power of Vegito AT THAT TIME but once he tapped into SSJG, a world he never felt before, The potential for growth was immeasurable in comparison. Fusion now is the better option because now Goku has a better understanding of power of God Ki and can stack Fusion on top. I don't think its that complicated.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Btw Gammas are definitely more powerful than Gohan up to SSJ and Ultimate Piccolo. The gap between Gohan's SSJ and Gamma 1's max is definitely noticeable as Gamma 1 just views him as a nuisance rather than a threat till he taps into Ultimate himself.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Btw Gammas are definitely more powerful than Gohan up to SSJ and Ultimate Piccolo. The gap between Gohan's SSJ and Gamma 1's max is definitely noticeable as Gamma 1 just views him as a nuisance rather than a threat till he taps into Ultimate himself.

There is also the fact that Gamma 1 was able to survive multiple hits from Ultimate Gohan, I mean sur Gohan had the advantage but Gamma 1 was still able to keep up with him regardless so that alone proves that he's magnitudes above SSJ gohan tier

 

[AwkguyDB]

There is also the fact that Gamma 1 was able to survive multiple hits from Ultimate Gohan, I mean sur Gohan had the advantage but Gamma 1 was still able to keep up with him regardless so that alone proves that he's magnitudes above SSJ gohan tier

Lol keep up I guess while Gohan had him in a headlock while having a full conversation with Piccolo and then proceeds to hit him with a DDT Love that scene

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

It is because the components of the fusion are similar to an hypothetical BoG Vegito

Goku had SS3
Vegeta has SS2

Even if fused and at peak Goku deemed it insufficient and SSG to be leaps above it

Caulifla had power comparable to SS2 Goku during the ToP
Kale had power close or around SS3 level

Their fusion in base can now match SSG?

I don’t know how to make it easier to explain but the gist is that even if potara accounted for individual PLs for its resulting power, it still doesn’t make sense for characters substantially below SSG level to be stronger than it.

Either Goku can’t accurately guesstimate how strong potara fusion makes him or SSG has a non static multiplier, opting for the first based on buu saga dialogue.

You just ignored everything I said base caulifla would absolutely dog Vegito from Z and their base powers are just completely stronger

Caulifla and Kale are comparable to goku and vegeta in top to a certain point the same goku who got stronger than his ssjg boost in base and got way stronger since then also being comparable to vegeta who beat ssjr goku when Goku Black was handling him in base

if 2 2-C characters fuse it’ll be stronger than if 2 4-B characters fuse

SSJG is at a set multiplier
Fusion isn’t set and just multiplies the power of the 2 it just means that kale and caulifla’s fusion strength is beyond that of the multiplier ssjg gives which isn’t inconsistent at all since even Base Vegito in the goku Black arc is stronger than ssjb goku and vegeta

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

There is also the fact that Gamma 1 was able to survive multiple hits from Ultimate Gohan, I mean sur Gohan had the advantage but Gamma 1 was still able to keep up with him regardless so that alone proves that he's magnitudes above SSJ gohan tier

Also if Gamma 1's power was purely adaptational then he would've started adapting to Ultimate Gohan considering he was already surviving and fighting against him

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Universe 7 probably high-diffs a second Tournament of Power

They have the Saiyans, Piccolo, and Gamma 1

Hedo should be capable of cooking up more god level beings

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I don’t know how to make it easier to explain but the gist is that even if potara accounted for individual PLs for its resulting power, it still doesn’t make sense for characters substantially below SSG level to be stronger than it.

Reminder that Goku was exhausted at this point

Also the Saiyans were wildin during the ToP specifically that explains it too

 

[AguilaR202]

At That Time
Goku deemed it completely out of the question because he knew the potential power of Vegito AT THAT TIME but once he tapped into SSJG, a world he never felt before, The potential for growth was immeasurable in comparison. Fusion now is the better option because now Goku has a better understanding of power of God Ki and can stack Fusion on top. I don't think its that complicated.

Potential for growth doesn’t adress the underlying issue, and Kale and Caulifla have no god ki anyways.

The power ratios between Super Saiyan forms are more or less accepted to be static hence why we always take it SS1 is 50x and SSB is 50x SSG.

If a characters PL peaks around SS2/3 level then Potara should be unable to amp him beyond his hypothetical level as a SSG which is where Goku sat relative to U6 girls during the ToP because the two girls could only stack up to his SS2/3.

You just ignored everything I said base caulifla would absolutely dog Vegito from Z and their base powers are just completely stronger

Caulifla and Kale are comparable to goku and vegeta in top to a certain point the same goku who got stronger than his ssjg boost in base and got way stronger since then also being comparable to vegeta who beat ssjr goku when Goku Black was handling him in base

if 2 2-C characters fuse it’ll be stronger than if 2 4-B characters fuse

SSJG is at a set multiplier
Fusion isn’t set and just multiplies the power of the 2 it just means that kale and caulifla’s fusion strength is beyond that of the multiplier ssjg gives which isn’t inconsistent at all since even Base Vegito in the goku Black arc is stronger than ssjb goku and vegeta

Well, Vados retconned that interpretation and claimed potara was now A+B x tens of times

And I don’t think I got my point across that well

Kale and Caulifla fused when they were only around Gokus SS3/SS2 level, the power difference between them and Goku as a SSG during the ToP is practically the same initial BoG Goku and his SSG form, a difference that potara couldn’t overcome according to Goku.

 

[AguilaR202]

Reminder that Goku was exhausted at this point

Also the Saiyans were wildin during the ToP specifically that explains it too

You’re right, I’d go with that because it’s far less of a headache as an explanation.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Possible 2-C Goten and Trunks

-Referred to as two among Earth's strongest fighters...specifically at the moment...and by Bulma who has no sense of power levels
-They were, however, confident they could assist in fighting Cell Max, whereas 18 said "screw it" as if fearful of her chances and Krillin was too scared to consider it at all
-Formed a failed Gotenks, who could crack Cell Max's weak point, whereas Potential Unleashed Piccolo did nothing to it
-Saiyan Hybrid potential is wack so this should not be counted out of question
-I mean Piccolo considered Majin Buu powerful enough to fight against the Gammas and they're Super Saiyan Blue level so I don't see why this shouldn't be fine
-Hell, its been three years, a HUGE window of time for them to have gotten stronger, and Saiyans consistently make incredulous power jumps in very short periods all the time now

Does it sound stupid? Yes. Is that the only counter against them being 2-C? YES!

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Potential for growth doesn’t adress the underlying issue, and Kale and Caulifla have no god ki anyways.

The power ratios between Super Saiyan forms are more or less accepted to be static hence why we always take it SS1 is 50x and SSB is 50x SSG.

If a characters PL peaks around SS2/3 level then Potara should be unable to amp him beyond his hypothetical level as a SSG which is where Goku sat relative to U6 girls during the ToP because the two girls could only stack up to his SS2/3.




Well, Vados retconned that interpretation and claimed potara was now A+B x tens of times

And I don’t think I got my point across that well

Kale and Caulifla fused when they were only around Gokus SS3/SS2 level, the power difference between them and Goku as a SSG during the ToP is practically the same initial BoG Goku and his SSG form, a difference that potara couldn’t overcome according to Goku.

How does Vados’s statement retcon it? 10s of times doesnt retcon anything and the things we’ve seen with fusion growth as well

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Also if Gamma 1's power was purely adaptational then he would've started adapting to Ultimate Gohan considering he was already surviving and fighting against him

Honestly studying "powers" doesn't necessarily refers to strength , it could very well refers to studying techniques or abilities

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Honestly studying "powers" doesn't necessarily refers to strength , it could very well refers to studying techniques or abilities

Right. It doesn't dispute the idea that he was holding back

 

[AwkguyDB]

Um btw what's the status of DBZ Kai and its placement to the continuity? Is it still not accepted at all?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Um btw what's the status of DBZ Kai and its placement to the continuity? Is it still not accepted at all?

Its not accepted

 

[AwkguyDB]

weird as hell honestly but whatever

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

weird as hell honestly but whatever

Iirc DDM said Kai can be used besides the violent saiyan stuff because the broly movie retconned it or sum I remember DDM saying it in the 2-C universe upgrade (it was the first one for toei only)

 

[AwkguyDB]

And Super anime would still scale to the manga? I get retcons but I pretty much argued before that Super references Kai like a few times heck every arc in Kai is referenced in Super with a direct flashback. I don't see why we don't include it other than the fact of past staff arguments that were extremely subjective.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

And Super anime would still scale to the manga? I get retcons but I pretty much argued before that Super references Kai like a few times heck every arc in Kai is referenced in Super with a direct flashback. I don't see why we don't include it other than the fact of past staff arguments that were extremely subjective.

My memory isn’t good but I could try to find the crt I think DDM said kai is fine for dbs besides the violent saiyan stuff

 

[StrymULTRA]

Some cool resistances for Frieza's race (no bones and no organs version).

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Some cool resistances for Frieza's race (no bones and no organs version).

I had never noticed that, I thought it was just censorship, but when I saw the manga and various proofs, I believed it.